Conversion therapy

[Anthony2019]

This I do agree on, which I said above to Paidiske. But this is all very confusing to me when behavior is or isn't being discussed.

I should correct myself about revisionism. There's a lot of revisionism and rationalizing around fornication too. Everything from "oral sex" isn't sex, to "we're married in our hearts".

I think the easiest way to describe it is as follows. Sexual orientation relates to the natural attraction a person feels towards someone of the same gender. It does not necessarily imply that the person will act on that attraction. It is possible for a person to live their entire life in celibacy, never seeking nor forming any relationships with anyone. Yet they are still described as "homosexual" simply because they are still attracted to people of the same gender. However hard people try to ignore or surpress their feelings, their sexual orientation will remain the same.

 

[Pathfinder627]

I think the easiest way to describe it is as follows. Sexual orientation relates to the natural attraction a person feels towards someone of the same gender. It does not necessarily imply that the person will act on that attraction. It is possible for a person to live their entire life in celibacy, never seeking nor forming any relationships with anyone. Yet they are still described as "homosexual" simply because they are still attracted to people of the same gender. However hard people try to ignore or surpress their feelings, their sexual orientation will remain the same.

If that's the case, they are in my prayers and I wish them the best. I know what it's like to be celibate. I'm not asexual, but heterosexual, and it hasn't always been easy. The 20s were the absolute worst, where the desire for love and family was on my mind a lot. It's only become easier by my 40s. Anyone going through it probably understands me more than most, and they have my sympathy as well.

 

[nolidad]

We are at election time and the Govt has announced intention to ban 'Converson Therapy' for those who wish to transition back to biological gender. (Forgive me if I use the wrong terminology, I am no expert.)

What I would like to know is if this therapy is Christian based. (I suspect not)

I would also like to know if such a ban might prohibit legitimate ministries in the church from assisting such a transition.

We in NewZealand have a Govt. trying to lead the world in 'progressive legislation'

Thanks for your help.

Well believing churches get involved in lots of community ministries and counseling. with this issue, they should only seek to help those who want to get help, or appear willing to restore there thinking to "normal" in this. If a nation bans this, if people ask- we can still tell them the truth as to what gender God made them to be.

 

[JacksBratt]

. The problem is it is normal for some of these people and being continually emotionally abused over something they can’t change has got to be a horrific experience

I agree. that is one of the problems... Not to mention internal conflict and others.

 

[JacksBratt]

I think the easiest way to describe it is as follows. Sexual orientation relates to the natural attraction a person feels towards someone of the same gender. It does not necessarily imply that the person will act on that attraction. It is possible for a person to live their entire life in celibacy, never seeking nor forming any relationships with anyone. Yet they are still described as "homosexual" simply because they are still attracted to people of the same gender. However hard people try to ignore or surpress their feelings, their sexual orientation will remain the same.

I would not have used the phrase "natural attraction".. I would have just stated "attraction".

I don't believe that it is natural IMO.

I do agree that it would be better to be homosexual and celibate for your entire life.. than to be heterosexual and a fornicator and or adulterer.

I don't think that it is correct to say that this type of attraction will stay the same for life. There are many stories and accounts of people entering into council and working through their issue and turning around their attraction and life.

 

[Quartermaine]

Isn't it mentioned in 1st Corinthians ? Where it mentions the effeminate?.which I believe refers to gay temple.prostitutes.

it hinges on the translation of the Greek word arsenokoites. For most of the history of Christianity arsenokoites was translated to mean masturbation, the most recent bible to make this translation was in 1968. It is only in the last fifty years or so that a shift in the translation of this word to mean homosexual has been seen. Historically it has also been translated to mean kidnappers, prostitutes, practitioners of other religions, rapists and fathers who sexually molest their daughters. The simple truth is no one knows what it means. there are about 90 known writings contemporary to the bible that contain the word arsenokoites, none of them can be construed to mean homosexual

Also the scripture about exchAnging truth for lie and the one about unnatural desires? Exchanging the nAtural use for the body with unatural?

Natural - Paul specifically used the Greek word paraphysin here, which does not mean "to go against the law(s) of nature", that would be ενάντια στο νόμο or cenántia sto nómo . Rather it means to engage in action(s) which is uncharacteristic or against the nature of that person or more simply an individual denying his/her true nature. An example of the word paraphysin is used in Romans 1 1:24, where God acts in an uncharacteristic (paraphysin) way to accept the Gentiles. To claim that paraphysin means unnatural would indicate that God was acting in an unnatural way. Which is impossible.

 

[Anthony2019]

If that's the case, they are in my prayers and I wish them the best. I know what it's like to be celibate. I'm not asexual, but heterosexual, and it hasn't always been easy. The 20s were the absolute worst, where the desire for love and family was on my mind a lot. It's only become easier by my 40s. Anyone going through it probably understands me more than most, and they have my sympathy as well.

I agree with you. Celibacy has been considered by many as the only option for non-heterosexual people. I know many people in the church who have resolved to remain true to what they believe yet have found the path of celibacy to be too unbearable for them.

The longer I have been a Christian the more i have realised that everyone's life experience is unique and there are never straightforward answers to every situation.

Having read the Bible from cover to cover, I am often very tempted to think that I have mastered all aspects of theology and morality. But when I come across words such as "Do to others as they would unto you" it makes me realise how far I have missed the mark. I realise that I cannot truly love my neighbour as myself, if I cannot relate or empathise with another person's situation. And like the parable of the good samaritan, I cannot become a good neighbour unless I accept that there are situations where I may have to become vulnerable. Being vulnerable often requires us to challenge our own traditions and beliefs by allowing ourselves to be touched and affected by another person's experience.

To be a good Christian, we first have to learn what it means to be a good neighbour and friend. Good friends do not always necessarily see or understand things from each other's perspective, but they are there for one another, through good times and bad, through triumph and tragedy, sharing with each other during times of joy and sorrow, A good friend may not always appreciate what another person is going through, but they will always be there at their side. They will do anything they can to help soothe their suffering, ease their anguish, and to help them find hope, courage and strength in their situation.

 

[Quartermaine]

I didn't only mention Leviticus. You did. And you are lying throughout this thread about the New Testament too. "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind". 1 Cor 6:9-10

"Abusers of themselves with mankind" = arsenokoitai. Homosexuals. It is a compound word, meaning men [arsen] in bed [koitai].. A euphemism for sex, where you also get the Latin coitus, which is also used for sex.

except compound words don't derive their meaning from the meanings of their root words. you don't have to be standing or under anything to understand that the word butterfly has nothing to do with levitating dairy products.

and even if we pretended that compound words derive their meaning from the meanings of their root words ten it would be equally correct to say that 1 Cor 6:9-10 is condeming the lazy or men who stay in bed all day.

And if that wasn't enough, he condemns the "effiminate" before that. "Malakoi" meaning the soft, passive men in pederastic relationships. Not all of them were even sexual, but even the imagery and subjective role is condemned here.

it actually just translates as soft. that's all

 

[Quartermaine]

I also know a young person, in the church, who is now a man... Her family is one of the strongest Christian families that I know. It was a huge struggle and prayer was their main stay for years. Still is.

This, however is one of the very rare stories of a functional transformation.

The statistics on suicides of transgender does not change after they are surgically changed.

actually it does

Cecilia Dhejne, et al Long-Term Follow-Up of Transsexual Persons Undergoing Sex Reassignment Surgery: Cohort Study in Sweden was an 11 year study of post surgical transsexuals and it found that the suicide rate for such individuals was no different than for the population at large.

 

[Carl Emerson]

lying is an abomination Proverbs 12:22
pride is an abomination Proverbs 16:5

I appreciate your response.

I wonder however, that as these were not listed formerly in Leviticus that the meaning carried by the term abomination is not quite the same.

Like the statement - everything we do is sinful - is technically correct because we do not have the perfection of Christ until resurrection.

One could equally say everything we do is an abomination compared to the Holiness of our Lord.

So no, I do not accept that that these references carry the same weight as the Levitical refererences to a specific action that carried the immediate sentence of death.

 

[Carl Emerson]

if one wants a literal interpretation of the bible then homosexuality is not mentioned

This is nonsense. Men in bed with men as one would lie with a woman was an act that carried the sentence of immediate death. Lev 20:13

 

[Carl Emerson]

Scripture assumes everyone is straight, and some people are just badly-behaved straight people.

Really ??? How can you possibly know that.

That is just a convenient way of interpreting scripture to bolster sympathy for what is an abomination. Why else did the Lord order such behaviours to be eradicated by an immediate death sentence?

 

[Carl Emerson]

underlying the real way organisms express their sex, Id say that just arbitrarily assigning 2 sexes is naive and based on ignorance . Just male and female simply isn’t true for all species and that includes humans . If observed natural phenomena disagrees with the Bible then the Bible is usually wrong and this has happened over and over again . I don’t have a problem with that . I feel sorry for people caught between destructive mythology and reality.

What you term 'natural' is corrupt - we live in a fallen world.

You can take your lead in life from animals - I prefer the Scripture that carries the Wisdom of God.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Which is not the same thing as "homosexuality." The behaviour is not the orientation. It's the orientation which I'm suggesting was not part of the ancient understanding of human development.

I am not using this point to undermine a moral position; but it's important that we understand the vast gulf between a first-century understanding of sexuality, and a twenty-first century understanding, if we are to meaningfully apply the Scriptures.

The use of the word orientation is a modern construct to avoid the real issue of sin and temptation.

 

[Brightmoon]

What you term 'natural' is corrupt - we live in a fallen world.

You can take your lead in life from animals - I prefer the Scripture that carries the Wisdom of God.

. Yes I do , I learned to be more affectionate from a cat , I learned patience from a dog who put up with my silly pranks . I realised when I was 8 that humans are just animals too. Some animals share behaviors and some animals have unique behaviors . Creationists are just in denial and that ridiculous denial is turning some people away from the religion. If I had known of the creationist silliness about evolution when I was younger I think that amount of blatant ignorance would have pushed me into atheism but fortunately I didn’t realize that creationists even existed until I was in my mid 30s

 

[Carl Emerson]

. The problem is it is normal for some of these people and being continually emotionally abused over something they can’t change has got to be a horrific experience

It is not that simple...

They can change...

1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Sadly the church has dropped the ball in helping such folks to make the real transition clearly made by early believers.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Sexual orientation is not an action, therefore I do not consider it to be sinful. You are likely referring to homosexual behaviour which is a different concept altogether.

Just change the word orientation to the word temptation and it all becomes clear. Then if it is acted upon, it does become sin.

 

[Junia]

These stories are endless. These people need help, counseling, therapy, not offers to butcher and mutilate their bodies and brains. I know of a young girl who got into a relationship with another girl who considered herself transgender. The younger girl (she was about 17) became convinced that she was also trans and started referring to herself as a 'gay boy' (because the other girl was also presenting as a boy). The loops and knots that a person's mind has to traverse in order to think that this scenario is in any way sensible, logical, normal, or healthy, are extreme. Of course, as soon as their relationship broke up, and the influence of the older partner was absent, the younger girl quickly concluded that she was not, in fact, a trans boy (she was about 19-20 at this point).

I also have a personal friend who was born male and now lives as female, and has gone through most of the transition process, including surgery and hormone replacements. I remember having in-depth conversations with him as he was first taking estrogen. The mental suffering he endured was painful to witness, and broke my heart. He complained of not understanding his own thoughts and feelings, of having frequent breakdowns and crying spells, of thinking he was going crazy. This is not helpful. This is not therapeutic. This is not normal. This is not okay. You cannot force biology to become something it isn't, and these people are suffering tremendously for the sake of a godless culture war.

People want to blame "prejudice" for the agony these people suffer, but the truth is that it's the lack of recognition of the root of their illness that causes it. Thinking that cutting off and mutilating body parts, or flooding a male brain with female hormones (or vice versa), will not have disastrous consequences? That is utter ignorance and foolishness, and I've witnessed the tragedies that result, firsthand. The moment someone says "I was born in the wrong body", they need to receive counseling to identify the root cause of that dysfunctional thinking, and address and deal with that root cause. Any other "therapy" is abuse.

Exactly!!! There is a cause because the issue is there before other people's prejudice....prejudice didn't create this issue, the issue was there to start with. No one is born with a sexual orientation or concept of gender...babies don't care ....

 

[Junia]

It is not that simple...

They can change...

1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Sadly the church has dropped the ball in helping such folks to make the real transition clearly made by early believers.

It is a gradual process though, usually... We become born again and some things change then others change....I know someone who soon after he was saved for off street drugs. But it took 10 more years to deal with smoking

 

[Brightmoon]

It is not that simple...

They can change...

1 Cor 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Sadly the church has dropped the ball in helping such folks to make the real transition clearly made by early believers.

I don’t believe that . I think they get guilted into pretending to change by the gaslighting . Some people are good at acting .