Conversion therapy

[Pathfinder627]

Saying something like "lustful desires for the same sex" would make me think they have been victim to long term abuse and propaganda.

The Word of God isn't propaganda. Neither lust or same sex relationships are looked at kindly in it.

Not to say I support conversion therapy. As I said above, I don't even know what it is. I just think people are without hope without God's direct help.

 

[Quartermaine]

Honestly, I don't know anything about conversion therapy. Not a thing. Why is it called "conversion"? If it entails some "step by step" plan for conversion to Christ, mixed up with conversion from homosexual inclinations, then it's bound to fail. As I said above, only God can do this. I'm also convinced that most won't even care about God in the first place until they hit rock bottom or something else equally dramatic that makes them want to flee the darkness in their lives. These things can't be taught. And most don't want to be taught. You can only plant a seed. And you know how Jesus' parable goes about that.

the phrase conversion therapy was coined in 1979 by Exodus International an ex-gay ministry to provide a form of legitimacy for what they were practicing.

 

[Inkfingers]

You mean surgery???

Where does the bible say that ???

Having healthy organs removed is not surgery. Saying otherwise is sanctioning and encouraging self-harm, and shame upon those who do it.

 

[Quartermaine]

The Word of God isn't propaganda. Neither lust or same sex relationships are looked at kindly in it.

neither is having a tattoo

 

[Pathfinder627]

neither is having a tattoo

If you're trying to be careless here because "tattoos" are in Leviticus, then lust and sexual immorality aren't signs of God's people in either Old and New Testaments. It's not just an Old Testament thing.

Or if you're point is that morals don't matter at all, then why are you even a Christian? Your profile says "Non-Denom". Or is that just some trick for you to scoot by and post in Christian Only forums? People have a general expectation of the bare minimum of basic points with who they interact with here.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Having healthy organs removed is not surgery. Saying otherwise is sanctioning and encouraging self-harm, and shame upon those who do it.

OK gottcha...

I was unsure what you were meaning.

 

[Stan Ley]

i turned him off after the 20th blatant lie

Please share, what are these blatant lies?

 

[Paidiske]

Please share, what are these blatant lies?

He's very much misrepresenting the situation and fear-mongering. For example, claiming that a ban on conversion therapy would mean that we wouldn't be allowed to preach on certain Scriptures (that was the first one that really stood out).

It's very typical of the ACL's approach to social issues. I don't see them as a reliable resource.

 

[Sketcher]

Sorry, I was in a hurry and a bit unclear.

There is a difference between conversion in its general sense as a religious term, which is very broad, and "conversion" in the sense meant in "conversion therapy." That specific sense means, in short, making a gay/lesbian/bisexual person straight, or making a transgendered person cisgendered.

Someone with same-sex attraction seeking to reduce their sexual desire for the same sex is not the same as trying to "make them straight." (In crude terms).

OK. And eliminating that sexual desire for the same sex? Is that also not conversion?

I am not sure that this is a comparable example, in developmental terms; but in general I would say it is dangerous for Christian ministers to seek to change the people to whom we minister. We need to have the humility to recognise that it is God who brings about change in people, not us; and also the humility to recognise that God's agenda for healing that person might look very different to ours.

So what you're saying is that you wouldn't be more specific than the aforementioned, even with a violent offender? You would not seek to facilitate change by God in this person other than that prayer?

I know you're not asking me, but nobody is going to change except with God's intervention. Praying would be the first thing to do. I say this as someone who was violent myself, and around gang life in my teens. In addition to drugs. Nothing will help except the Spirit of God transforming a person. Good advice and mentoring can only plant the seeds.

I know God is the only one who can really change people, but I want to know how much seed-planting/watering she considers "appropriate."

 

[Sketcher]

Saying something like "lustful desires for the same sex" would make me think they have been victim to long term abuse and propaganda.

If your frame of reference is unhealthy, that would make sense.

 

[Paidiske]

OK. And eliminating that sexual desire for the same sex? Is that also not conversion?

If the aim is to make that person "not gay" then I guess it could be. But I would note that lots of people, even happily married straight people, at times desire to reduce their sexual desire and seek assistance in doing so, so I wouldn't automatically say that "desire management" (for want of a better term) is conversion in the way it is meant for the purposes of this thread.

So what you're saying is that you wouldn't be more specific than the aforementioned, even with a violent offender? You would not seek to facilitate change by God in this person other than that prayer?

I'm saying it's impossible to answer this kind of pastoral hypothetical. You'd have to care for the person in front of you as you found them in the moment. But in general, my approach is not to try to tell God how to change people, but to bring people into relationship with God and then let God be God.

I know God is the only one who can really change people, but I want to know how much seed-planting/watering she considers "appropriate."

I think the problem with seed-planting, in this kind of context, is the power differential between the people concerned.

For comparison, I draw on my own experience of mental illness (not gender or sexuality related), and having religious leaders I trusted tell me that that illness was demonic, attempt deliverance ministry, dismiss and downplay medical diagnoses, and so on. They might have thought they were "seed-planting" with reference to what they saw as my sin, but in fact they did significant harm.

In contrast, pastoral relationships which facilitated healing and growth were much more about giving me the space and the emotional safety to acknowledge my own thoughts and feelings and bring them to God.

 

[NBB]

If conversion therapy were effective... i see no problem in people trying to 'correct' someone, they are trying to do them a favour after all, but i suspect Jesus is the only one able to do this kind of thing.
Lets not forget these kind of behaviours are offensive to God.

 

[Philip_B]

Lets not forget these kind of behaviours are offensive to God.

Along with lying, lack of hospitality, pride, vainglory and hypocrisy.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Along with lying, lack of hospitality, pride, vainglory and hypocrisy.

None of the above are abominations...

Sins that are abominations are in a class of their own, that is why they are so named.

 

[Junia]

Of course - but the wording of the proposed law would ban the church from participating it seems.

I

then the issue is maybe that they are against religious faiths?

I am not a conspiracy theorist and don't see agendas to persecute believers in everything the government do, but may be this is a genuine attempt to reduce the civil liberties of christians

 

[Carl Emerson]

Exactly...

 

[Junia]

None of the above are abominations...

Sins that are abominations are in a class of their own, that is why they are so named.

I

I respectfully disagree. God found Sodoms lack of hospitality so abominable that he destroyed her

 

[hedrick]

Saying something like "lustful desires for the same sex" would make me think they have been victim to long term abuse and propaganda.

Possibly. But religious teachings are not banned by laws against conversion therapy, even teachings that could cause serious long term damage.

helping a gay person be celibate is not banned. This would include reducing the desire for sex.

what is banned is not change in behavior, but claiming to change orientation, although coercive or extreme measures, e.g. electrical shocks, would likely be banned even if it is not claimed that it will change orientation.

there’s not a lot of history with these laws, which means there’s not yet an accumulation of legal experience on how they are enforced.

 

[Paidiske]

I

then the issue is maybe that they are against religious faiths?

I am not a conspiracy theorist and don't see agendas to persecute believers in everything the government do, but may be this is a genuine attempt to reduce the civil liberties of christians

Look, we need to be honest with ourselves about the churches' history here. This type of legislation would not need to be proposed if we hadn't had groups - including and I think mostly religious groups - systematically engaging in harmful practices. The governments are, quite appropriately, moving to limit that harm.

That's not being against religious faith; in fact most of the members of those governments are people of faith. It's recognising that faith isn't an excuse to harm vulnerable people.

 

[Junia]

Look, we need to be honest with ourselves about the churches' history here. This type of legislation would not need to be proposed if we hadn't had groups - including and I think mostly religious groups - systematically engaging in harmful practices. The governments are, quite appropriately, moving to limit that harm.

That's not being against religious faith; in fact most of the members of those governments are people of faith. It's recognising that faith isn't an excuse to harm vulnerable people.

I

You may well be right. I wish the government would be honest about their reasons for this. If their reason is protection of the vulnerable then that is excellent.

There may be positive stories about conversion therapies but I haven't heard many....Or any...