Control Vs. Love

[RDKirk]

We have free will, but free will isn't void of the parameters of reality. It isn't free of consequences or reactions.

Then that is not free will. Free will is the freedom of a moral agent to act without consequences or constraints by any other moral agent.

If you choose A because choosing B will entail negative consequences imposed by another moral agent, then your will is not free.

 

[Grip Docility]

Then that is not free will. Free will is the freedom of a moral agent to act without consequences or constraints by any other moral agent.

If you choose A because choosing B will entail negative consequences imposed by another moral agent, then your will is not free.

And yet consequence doesn’t necessarily negate absolute free will, but simply denote an order that permits action and reaction, from my perspective.

 

[zoidar]

I do not completely agree. God's creation has no ability to make a decision outside of the sovereign decree of God.



God determines the ends and the means in which He is glorified.

Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.



Yes, He gave Adam a choice, but due to the nature of Adam that God decreed in order to bring Him [God] glory, Adam had no ability to make the right moral choice. Likewise, all of mankind has no ability to make the right moral choice, apart from the work of God's grace.

Ephesians 2:1-10 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins (2) in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— (3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. (4) But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, (5) even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— (6) and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, (9) not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

It's important to know that God doesn't bask in His own glory. Glory is to be given God because of who He is. He wants our worship because He loves us and wants a relationship with us. It's not because He needs worship, but He loves to be with us. When we worship God it gives Him great joy and He is gloryfied. It's like when a son meets his father for the first time and calls him dad.

 

[JoeP222w]

It's important to know that God doesn't bask in His own glory.

Not in the sense that conceited, sinful man would bask in their own glory, no. But God is perfectly satisfied in Himself and in His own glory because He is the one, true, perfect, holy and righteous being, the only one who is deserving of all glory, honor and praise. This is not egomania, arrogance or conceit, but it is the perfection and completeness of God.

It's not because He needs worship, but He loves to be with us.

True, God has no need of anything or anyone. However, to clarify, God loves to be with us, not because there is something special in us (in and of ourselves), but because of Him. God's love is based in His character, nature and attributes, it is not based in us. (I am not saying that you are saying that, but that is who God is, as shown by His word in the Bible.

 

[zoidar]

Not in the sense that conceited, sinful man would bask in their own glory, no. But God is perfectly satisfied in Himself and in His own glory because He is the one, true, perfect, holy and righteous being, the only one who is deserving of all glory, honor and praise. This is not egomania, arrogance or conceit, but it is the perfection and completeness of God.



True, God has no need of anything or anyone. However, to clarify, God loves to be with us, not because there is something special in us (in and of ourselves), but because of Him. God's love is based in His character, nature and attributes, it is not based in us. (I am not saying that you are saying that, but that is who God is, as shown by His word in the Bible.

Well, God loves us individually, as persons. For God so loved the world He sent His Son.

 

[fhansen]

I do not completely agree. God's creation has no ability to make a decision outside of the sovereign decree of God.



God determines the ends and the means in which He is glorified.

Genesis 50:20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.



Yes, He gave Adam a choice, but due to the nature of Adam that God decreed in order to bring Him [God] glory, Adam had no ability to make the right moral choice.

So When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit, He actually wanted Adam to eat of the fruit? Either way this God who you say created Adam with a nature that meant he had no ability to make a right moral choice would be an ugly little god indeed, not worth trusting or following IMO.

 

[salt-n-light]

Then that is not free will. Free will is the freedom of a moral agent to act without consequences or constraints by any other moral agent.

If you choose A because choosing B will entail negative consequences imposed by another moral agent, then your will is not free.

So what if the person actual choose the choice of negative consequences, you’re saying that they never really acted out of free will, they were forced?

That’s saying that in order for it to be free will, it must be void of consequences. Which is impossible, to everything there is a consequence whether favorable or unfavorable. Nothing is fully working off a vacuum with no influence or order. If it was void of constraints,I wouldn’t even care about whether is free will or not, I would be the standard, it would be like I’m god.

And even God doesn’t have his will be outside himself . Part of him being just is that He has set orders and constraints in place.Although he can just blow everyone up, he doesn’t. And that doesn’t make him less of God. Just like although my choices has consequences, it doesn’t make it less of a free will.

 

[JoeP222w]

Well, God loves us individually, as persons.

I completely agree.

For God so loved the world He sent His Son.

Those who believe, contextually. Does God love unbelievers that same as believers? No. God gives unbelievers common grace. God gives believers redemptive love. God does not grant redemptive love to unbelievers, or they would not be unbelievers. Man differentiates love and God differentiates love all the more perfectly.

 

[JoeP222w]

So When God commanded Adam not to eat of the fruit, He actually wanted Adam to eat of the fruit?

God decreed that Adam would eat the fruit, in order for Him (God) to demonstrate His justice, righteousness, mercy and grace. God uses means to glorify Himself.

Either way this God who you say created Adam with a nature that meant he had no ability to make a right moral choice would be an ugly little god indeed, not worth trusting or following IMO.

Do you believe that God has to meet your standards to be worthy of trusting and following? Or do you believe that you have to meet His perfect standards of holiness and perfection?

God is sovereign, not man.

 

[Grip Docility]

God decreed that Adam would eat the fruit, in order for Him (God) to demonstrate His justice, righteousness, mercy and grace. God uses means to glorify Himself.



Do you believe that God has to meet your standards to be worthy of trusting and following? Or do you believe that you have to meet His perfect standards of holiness and perfection?

God is sovereign, not man.

God said don’t and decreed do?

 

[JoeP222w]

God said don’t and decreed do?

God uses means to demonstrate His justice, righteousness, glory and power.

Romans 9:14-29 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (25) As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” (26) “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” (27) And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, (28) for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” (29) And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”

 

[Grip Docility]

God uses means to demonstrate His justice, righteousness, glory and power.

Romans 9:14-29 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! (15) For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” (16) So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (17) For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” (18) So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. (19) You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” (20) But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” (21) Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? (22) What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, (23) in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— (24) even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (25) As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” (26) “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” (27) And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, (28) for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” (29) And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”

Sure. Wonderful scripture. But, Did God say don’t and decree do?

 

[fhansen]

God is sovereign, not man.

My point exactly.

 

[JoeP222w]

My point exactly.

Does not answer the question I posed.

Do you believe that God has to meet your standards to be worthy of trusting and following? Or do you believe that you have to meet His perfect standards of holiness and perfection?

 

[JoeP222w]

Sure. Wonderful scripture. But, Did God say don’t and decree do?

I answered the question.

 

[Grip Docility]

Does not answer the question I posed.

Do you believe that God has to meet your standards to be worthy of trusting and following? Or do you believe that you have to meet His perfect standards of holiness and perfection?

God went to the lengths of dying for us to prove to stupid us that He was far beyond our standards of “worthy to trust”.

What does that tell you?

 

[Grip Docility]

I answered the question.

So, that’s a yes. God said not to do something and sent out the royal decree to ensure we disobeyed.

God said do and simultaneously willed don’t.

Are you sure, that is your final answer?

 

[Grip Docility]

Brothers and Sisters,

I draw your attention to this thread “Oh God Help”

Southernscotty is grieving a horrible tragedy!

Some of you have already, Lovingly been there, but for any who haven’t, any words of Love and Prayer you have would be well received!

This man is weeping deeply at this time.

 

[JoeP222w]

God went to the lengths of dying for us to prove to stupid us that He was far beyond our standards of “worthy to trust”.

What does that tell you?

That question is for fhansen, not you.

We must meet God's standards. God does not answer to man.

 

[Grip Docility]

That question is for fhansen, not you.

We must meet God's standards. God does not answer to man.

I apologize for butting in.