Control Vs. Love

[Haipule]

Consequence is a nifty benefit of freedom. Indeed.

Truly! For freedom without authority is anarchy and, authority without freedom is tyranny!

Or, why did David say, "Thy rod and Thy staff. they comfort me"? Rod= divine discipline, staff = getting yanked out of a troubling mess of our own design.

I have experienced both because it took me forever to learn Jesus' simple words--You! Follow Me!

 

[Grip Docility]

"Free will" is anarchy. That's literally what it would mean...if it actually existed. But it doesn't because scripture defines us all as slaves, either to God or to sin.

On the flip side, I have merely expressed my opinion on the matter and I do now more thoroughly understand why FreeWill is not embraced by many.

 

[Haipule]

"Free will" is anarchy. That's literally what it would mean...if it actually existed. But it doesn't because scripture defines us all as slaves, either to God or to sin.

Now that, I do not disagree with! But, you are going to step on some theological toes as others "doctrine of volitional responsibility" that somehow, guarantees the life of God's promise. That will never work!

To say that all is "volition" is saying to me that we, somehow, through choices, have the ability to direct God through theology!

Nothing can be further from the truth!

Yes, honorable Sir! We start out only as slaves. But, eventually God calls us friends and/or sons if... It truly is a narrow path that few find!

Theology busies itself with calling me a "a sinner in need of repentance". But, how is that since I am His friend and Son for as long as I can remember?...Being called out form the rest to live in His purpose and destiny?...To glorify the Father in His son?

And John says, It is IMPOSSIBLE to sin"(miss)!

God's ways are not my ways as my ways only end in ruin! Like going down a branch of my life, that God is sure to bless, and end up only hearing the sound of a chainsaw!

And when it all crashes down then God just says, "You want to try this again, or do you follow Me!"

Apparently, all that I was taught about the "volitional responsibility" of "making good decisions from a position of strength" i.e., "Bible Doctrine", is all crapola!

I get it now! Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. Why did I ever think I could compete in ignorance! You! Follow Me! Apparently, He does NOT follow us!

 

[zoidar]

Every person is either slave to sin or slave to God--nobody's will is "free."

If we are not born again there is no power in us to conquer sin. When we choose God and are born again there is power to live as a Christian. We choose freely in the "spectrum of possible choices". Is it possible to choose God by oneself? If we haven't heard how can we choose Jesus? (Romans 10:14) So I believe in free will, but also in "possible choices".

 

[zoidar]

No.

This implies that to love everyone perfectly equally is the ideal to be sought after. I don't find this love defined in the Bible. This also implies that God loves those He sent to Hell, so God must be forever distraught that those He loves are in Hell. Again, not a concept in the Bible. God is glorified to carry out His justice and wrath on those who are in rebellion against Him, because He is love, because He is just, because He is sovereign.

When a person is in hell, the love of God is no more.

I think there is a concept in the bible that says exactly this (The ideal): "Love your neighbour as yourself."

I don't know if you are a calvinist, but "sovereign" must be one of the most misused words among calvinists. All Christians believe that God is sovereign. There is a difference what is meant by sovereign though.

I agree that God seeing justice done gives him glory. But that doesn't change the fact, that God out of love for mankind, sent Jesus to die for all men and that God wants all men to be saved.

Parables are meant to help us understand God, but parables never define doctrines.

Really? I don't agree. When I want to know the doctrines of the Bible I go first to the master, Jesus. What does he say? Then I go to his first apostles, James, Peter and John. In this light I read Paul's letters.

As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

I have no idea how you get that from the verse above. How can God love someone then say He hates someone, and you came to the conclusion this is the same love? That does not make any sense. And the passage is referring to the individuals, not the nations.

I don't get the idea that God loves both Esau and Jacob from that verse. I get that from other verses like John 3:16. That's why I don't believe that love/hate here means love and hate, that it's rather a matter of choosing for a purpose.

Is salvation of God or man? Does God fail in whom He saves? One cannot lose their salvation, because not one single person earned their salvation. No one eternal loses their salvation. They may fall into a season of sin, but they do not lose their salvation, or if they do, then God is impotent. This is not the case.

God never fails, He is not impotent ... man fails, that is the reason one is not saved. Throughout the NT we see warnings against losing our salvation, and it is also told what happens if we lose salvation, and examples are given of people who lost their salvation.

And their is always a context associated with it. And one who is truly saved of God cannot resist the Holy Spirit to the loss of their salvation. If one loses their salvation, they never were truly saved, were never regenerated by God, never repented, they never knew the Lord Jesus Christ.

I think that perseverance of the saints is a man made doctrine, making a person feel secure still living in sin.

Then by this view, man's will is greater than God's.

God's will is to not force anyone, because that is not love, neighter is it righteous. He is leading us towards repentance, but it our call to say: "Yes".