Contraception

[Lotar]

You have a LOT to learn!

I do indeed, just not from you.

I would like to hear of anyone who has ever interpreted Gen 38 otherwise before the 20th century. Even Jews interpreted it as such.

If I can manage to have 25 kids in 20 years, that will be a miracle indeed.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I do indeed, just not from you.

I would like to hear of anyone who has ever interpreted Gen 38 otherwise before the 20th century. Even Jews interpreted it as such.

If I can manage to have 25 kids in 20 years, that will be a miracle indeed.

You're an arrogant one, aren't you? A guy with no kids, lecturing somebody with GROWN KIDS about the value of kids!


And you've apparently never DARED read anything outside the books approved by the EOC.

And no, you won't have 25 kids in 20 years - even with twins. The reason is because your WIFE will most likely have the good sense - after several kids - to say, "This is ridiculous!"

 

[Chie]

Onan sin was the rebellion to the law. It was not the act but the motive and intent of the act itself that cost him his life.
Seed spilled anywhere other than inside of a man's wife is a sin to you? So much for the marriage bed and the Word of God.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Onan sin was the rebellion to the law. It was not the act but the motive and intent of the act itself that cost him his life.
Seed spilled anywhere other than inside of a man's wife is a sin to you? So much for the marriage bed and the Word of God.

You're right. It's amazing what people are willing to "read into" God's Word when they WANT it to mean something!


So tell me Chie, do you think God is demanding that you - at your "ripe old age" of a couple years older than me - keep having more and more children?

 

[Chie]

You're right. It's amazing what people are willing to "read into" God's Word when they WANT it to mean something!


So tell me Chie, do you think God is demanding that you - at your "ripe old age" of a couple years older than me - keep having more and more children?

lol bite your tongue

 

[ParsonJefferson]

lol bite your tongue

On a serious note for a moment... There really ARE some things that come with age & experience, aren't there?

I'm really saddened by the callous, chauvinistic approach some guys take toward the health of a woman. Doesn't seem much at all like the kind of husband the apostle Paul, in Ephesians 5, told us we ought to strive to be.

 

[Chie]

On a serious note for a moment... There really ARE some things that come with age & experience, aren't there?

I'm really saddened by the callous, chauvinistic approach some guys take toward the health of a woman. Doesn't seem much at all like the kind of husband the apostle Paul, in Ephesians 5, told us we ought to strive to be.

So true. Age with experience tells all.
I am saddened by it also Parson of the burdens men place on us all. How sweet is the yoke of Jesus.

 

[Lotar]

You're an arrogant one, aren't you? A guy with no kids, lecturing somebody with GROWN KIDS about the value of kids!


And you've apparently never DARED read anything outside the books approved by the EOC.

Yes, I have. I used to be a Protestant, and I used to read Protestant books.

And no, you won't have 25 kids in 20 years - even with twins. The reason is because your WIFE will most likely have the good sense - after several kids - to say, "This is ridiculous!"

You obviously don't know my wife.

 

[Calliso]

Some couples should not have children period. Some just donlt have the sense of responsiblity or have no maturnal instincts. It would be CRUEL for both for the parents and the child for those people to have kids. Hell I wouldn;t even have a CLUE what to do if I had a kid! I would be constantly crying freaking out over every little thing. The first time it got sick..I would likely die of a heart attack. Heck I have never even held a baby not once! So do you all think it would still be wise for me to try to have kids?

 

[Jedi]

Its necessity is not only obvious, but is also pointed to in Scripture in various places, such as the commandment to multiply in Genesis.

Procreation isn’t necessary in each sexual encounter. That should be obvious. Further still, there are problems with relying on the command to “go forth and multiply.” God was talking to humanity as it was beginning, calling into question whether this command even applies to us at all; the task has already been accomplished. In fact, humanity has gone forth and multiplied so much that it has become a very serious problem by introducing overpopulation, placing an unhealthy strain on our natural resources. Again, there is no reason to demand people be reckless in their procreation by refusing to do a bit of family planning.

It is made clear throughout Scripture that children are a blessing and gift from God. Blessed is the man who's quiver is full of them, to paraphrase one passage.

Again, in the right circumstance. Look at the culture of the audience the biblical author was writing to: agriculture flourished. The more kids a guy had, the better, since that means more help raising crops and herding animals. It’s typical farmer lifestyle. Their circumstance allowed for and even encouraged having more children. That is not so much the case today. A man is blessed when he has children he can support. A man is in serious trouble when he continues to have kids he cannot provide for.

Condemnation of various types of modern contraception can be linked to Scripture:

This should be good.

Barrier devises are a form of Onanism. (Onan's sin was clearly both not providing his brother with an heir and spilling his seed on the ground).

Read the passage again. Why was Onan killed? He refused to follow Mosaic Law, which demanded a man have kids for his deceased brother with his widow. Do you really mean to condemn anyone who doesn’t do this? I sure hope my brother’s wife is an attractive woman, just in case…

Onan was killed for rebelling against God. You’re confusing the “what” with the “how.” How Onan rebelled is irrelevant; that he was actively rebelling against God is the entire point.

Surgical methods are forms of castration, which is condemned in multiple passages.

What passages and why? Was it because the process itself was unhealthy or was associated with other religions? Where does scripture ever preach something to the effect “Thou shalt not stop thine sperm from [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] during intercourse?”

Pharmaceutical methods are both forms of artificial sterility (castration) and abortion (murder).

See my previous rebuttal and don’t even get into the issue of abortion. Suffice it to say that not all Pharmaceutical methods are the same and to lump them all together only demonstrates ignorance on your part.

Not only this, but the use of contraception is also "calling good evil and evil good", in that it is a rejection of God's blessings, and seeing them as undesirable at best.

No it’s not. It’s people using their brains by not having children they can’t provide for. It’s people planning a family so that when they do have kids, they’ll be born in an environment that is ready for them.

The immorality of this mindset is furthered by the fact the reasoning behind it is most often monetary and a desire for more idle time.

Yet another straw man. The mindset behind contraceptives is to control family production. What in the world is wrong with planning a family? Why do you insist people be reckless in producing kids or sacrifice intimacy with their spouse? Further still, what is wrong with a married couple not wanting to have kids? Where does God ever mandate every married couple must have kids?

I’m still waiting for an answer to my question: where are we ever taught that procreation is a necessary purpose for all sexual activity?

So says you, and I really see no reason at all to believe you over how this passage has been interpretted for centuries.

Oh, I see. So the antiquity of a method or idea determines its veracity, eh? The earth is flat, there is more than one god, and we can get out of purgatory early if we just give a little more money to the Catholic Church. Give me a break. The antiquity of an idea or method has nothing to do with its truthfulness.

God has spoken my friend.

Haha, you suppose your thoughts match those of God? What arrogance. You do not speak for God. Yours is not the mouth of God. Don’t be so juvenile as to pull the “you’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with God” bit. Anyone can say that and from the lack of intellectual credibility you’ve shown here, I find it unlikely that yours is the side of God.

Rarely the case. Even when this is the case, trusting God is the nobler path. My wife's godmother was told another child would kill her two children ago.

Then your wife’s godmother was foolish. God never promised to prevent you from getting hurt when you take unnecessary risks (or risks at all for that matter). Why in the world you would trust God to do what He never promised to do? It’s pure folly.

 

[Assisi]

And no, you won't have 25 kids in 20 years - even with twins. The reason is because your WIFE will most likely have the good sense - after several kids - to say, "This is ridiculous!"

I was saddened by this statement. I know that my opinion will probably not hold much weight because I am only 24, and have only had one child (so far, please God give me many more children). But really, I know many, many women who reject contraception as an evil, some are around my own age, but some are in their 40s 50s 60s and beyond.

My husband's parents never used contraception and had six children, my parents never used contraception and had one child, my school friend's parents never used contraception and had ten. All of these women are passionate about this area of their belief.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I was saddened by this statement. I know that my opinion will probably not hold much weight because I am only 24, and have only had one child (so far, please God give me many more children). But really, I know many, many women who reject contraception as an evil, some are around my own age, but some are in their 40s 50s 60s and beyond.

My husband's parents never used contraception and had six children, my parents never used contraception and had one child, my school friend's parents never used contraception and had ten. All of these women are passionate about this area of their belief.

If these couples ONLY have 6 and 10 kids, respectively, THEY ARE USING CONTRACEPTION!

And here we see yet another fallacy of the anti-contraceptive mindset. The people who are always screaming about the evils of contraception inevitably use contraception.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Yes, I have. I used to be a Protestant, and I used to read Protestant books.

You obviously don't know my wife.

...and your wife has obviously never experienced postpartum depression, or dealt with a baby with colic - or experienced a whole host of other "blessings" that come with child rearing.

When we first got married, my wife wanted 8 kids. After having 1, she was down to 6. After our second son was born 6 weeks early, she thought she might want one more. And that's what we have.


You and your wife will both live and learn. I'll guarantee you that you will not be singing the same tune 20 years from now. But there's no way to tell somebody who already knows everything, that he has a lot to learn.

 

[Jedi]

But really, I know many, many women who reject contraception as an evil, some are around my own age, but some are in their 40s 50s 60s and beyond.

But why, why do they reject contraception as an evil? From what basis do they stand to reject it as inherently bad? I have yet to see any scriptural, theological, or philosophical reason to reject it while there's no shortage of good reasons in favor of contraception (convenience, health concerns, overpopulation, preservation of intimacy between spouses, etc).

I know one thing for certain: I will never marry a woman who doesn't believe in contraception. Never. Such a woman would give me only two choices: (1) live recklessly each time we have sex by risking yet another child we may or may not be able to provide for or (2) sacrifice sex with my spouse in fear of having yet another child we may or may not be able to provide for. What kind of choice is that? To live in fear or sacrifice intimacy? No thank you.

 

[Lotar]

If these couples ONLY have 6 and 10 kids, respectively, THEY ARE USING CONTRACEPTION!

And here we see yet another fallacy of the anti-contraceptive mindset. The people who are always screaming about the evils of contraception inevitably use contraception.

LOL

You have no idea what you are talking about, and you have the nerve tell other people that they need to learn. The average number of children for couples who use no contraception is ~7.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

LOL

You have no idea what you are talking about, and you have the nerve tell other people that they need to learn. The average number of children for couples who use no contraception is ~7.

I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

The average number of children for couples who CLAIM they use no contraception is 7. Note the word CLAIM.

One of your many problems, in this area, is that you wrongly think YOUR method of contraception is God-approved, while all others are wrong and sinful.

Natural Family Planning - The Rhythm Method - Sympto-Thermal Method... They're ALL contraception.

 

[tulc]

I think part of our problem with this issue is we assume our calling is the same for everyone else. You believe contraception to be wrong? don't use it. You think it's ok? Use it. And both sides need to not judge the other side. I know it's hard for us not too, but I suspect if we all concentrated more on our own relationship with the Lord and less on how many kids our brothers and sisters are having (or not having) we would be able to think about more important things...like coffee.
tulc(just a thought)

 

[ParsonJefferson]

I think part of our problem with this issue is we assume our calling is the same for everyone else. You believe contraception to be wrong? don't use it. You think it's ok? Use it. And both sides need to not judge the other side. I know it's hard for us not too, but I suspect if we all concentrated more on our own relationship with the Lord and less on how many kids our brothers and sisters are having (or not having) we would be able to think about more important things...like coffee.
tulc(just a thought)

Here's one of the glitches though...

Those who claim contraception is wrong and evil, actually practice contraception! They just claim that their method of contraception is okay.


And by the way, Caribou Coffee is the way to go. If you've never had it, you should!

 

[tulc]

And by the way, Caribou Coffee is the way to go. If you've never had it, you should!

Oh yeah, I've been there, they are good.
tulc(not Mrs.tulc's fresh ground from the bean then french pressed good, but good never the less!)

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Oh yeah, I've been there, they are good.
tulc(not Mrs.tulc's fresh ground from the bean then french pressed good, but good never the less!)

You are one spoiled boy!

But sometimes it's great to be spoiled, isn't it - especially when it comes too important things, such as good coffee!?