Contraception

[tulc]

Lotar, is that a sonogram of your baby as your avatar?
tulc(just wondering)

 

[Fantine]

The use of contraception is sinful. It is against God's commandments, and against the universal teaching of the Church through the ages.

It's use and acceptance has always led quickly to the acceptance and use of abortion, and currently is destroying Western civilization, through the popularization of extra-maritial sex, and sub-replacement level birth rates.



Have fun discussing.

Because we can't replicate today's society in a pre-birth control pill era, it's hard to say whether your conjectures are true or not.

The truth is that family sizes started falling during the Industrial Revolution when children were no longer needed to work on farms. Children became an economic liability instead of an economic asset. Even before the invention of the pill, family size fell.

In our technological era, those problems are exacerbated. Today's children need even more education, and are even more of an economic liability.

In most households both parents work. Technology has given them fewer chores at home, and they have fewer children to raise.

But the fact that both spouses work also accounts for fewer children.

Couples are not tied together because of their large broods anymore, and because wives are more financially self-sufficient. People live longer. Even parents of large families may be together many years when their children are grown.

All this happened for reasons other than the pill.

I think that mankind will overcome these problems. They will reinvent marriage and find ways to enrich and sustain relationships that are not dependent on children or economic subservience. This is happening already.

Large families in an era where large families were needed--in an underpopulated world, in agrarian economies--were wonderful.

But now we don't need large families anymore. We live in an overpopulated world where children are economically dependent on their parents longer, and require lots of education.

But what we do need, now and in the future, are families that adapt to these changing circumstances while maintaining the values that made family life so successful through the ages.

 

[Lotar]

Lotar, is that a sonogram of your baby as your avatar?
tulc(just wondering)

Yes, it is.

 

[Lotar]

Good luck with your 20 kids Lotar. Let's see if you still feel this way when you are 55 and have 20 kids.

I find it highly unlikely that my wife and I will end up with 20. Given that we are both in our mid twenties, we probably won't have more than 8.

But who am I to tell God when His blessings are enough?

 

[DMagoh]

Good luck with your 20 kids Lotar. Let's see if you still feel this way when you are 55 and have 20 kids.

I find it highly unlikely that my wife and I will end up with 20. Given that we are both in our mid twenties, we probably won't have more than 8.

But who am I to tell God when His blessings are enough?

So do you plan to give up sex at the age of 42? If you have one every other year, you'll have 8 by then. (And I have known some couples who have ended up having babies more frequently than every other year!)

 

[Jedi]

Yes it is.

I’m sorry, but this is clearly inadequate. I might as well claim you existing is a sin and I would have as much basis for that claim as the one you’ve asserted here. Until you can provide an adequate source for your condemnation, you simply have no case. Odd that you would beg the question on this issue if scripture so clearly taught against contraception, whether explicitly or by principle.

But who am I to tell God when His blessings are enough?

At a point, more children are not so much of a blessing as a hardship. I hate to break it to you, but kids aren’t a bed of roses. It’s foolish to not plan for a family, continuing to have children you cannot provide for. I’m sorry, but God isn’t going to toss stacks of hundred dollar bills at you each time you have a kid to make sure you’re taken care of. He gave you a mind and the ability to reason for a purpose and how dare you condemn those who utilize what God has given them.

Do you really serve a God who’s limited by birth control so that His will is thwarted by the medicine of men? What a weak God you serve.

 

[tulc]

Yes, it is.

Mazel Tov!!
tulc(so how's it going so far?)

 

[Fantine]

Congratulations, Mr. and Mrs. Lotar, on your expected baby!

And, respectfully, how many children they have is a matter for them to consider, not ours.

Many of us have been in the situation where others have questioned our reproductive choices--telling us we're too old or too young to have a baby, or that it's about time we had one, or that we've had too many, or that they're too closely spaced.

Ain't nobody's business but our own.

When women are in their 40's, they are often in what's called peri-menopause. They continue to menstruate, but some, or even most, of their cycles are anovulatory. Few women would have a child every year or two once they reached the age of 40....nature takes care of that on its own.

 

[Carey]

The use of contraception is sinful. It is against God's commandments, and against the universal teaching of the Church through the ages.

It's use and acceptance has always led quickly to the acceptance and use of abortion, and currently is destroying Western civilization, through the popularization of extra-maritial sex, and sub-replacement level birth rates.



Have fun discussing.

deteronomy 23 : 9, 10 calls a "nocturnal emission" as impure.
but not sinful. Of course one could argue this was not intentional
and say the release of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] anywhere but in the wife is sinful.

I know if it is a sin the vast majority of people will commit this one.

Thank God for Jesus and what he did when he died for all sin.

God bless

Carey

 

[Lotar]

So do you plan to give up sex at the age of 42? If you have one every other year, you'll have 8 by then. (And I have known some couples who have ended up having babies more frequently than every other year!)

Yes, some couples have babies more frequently than every two years, but most do not. Most end up having children less frequently than every two years.

People in this day and age generally highly over-estimate what the average person's fertility is.

The chances that my wife will have more than one or two after she hits 40 are pretty slim.

 

[Lotar]

Mazel Tov!!
tulc(so how's it going so far?)

Thanks.

It's going well. We know it's going to be a boy, and he is do at the end of October (the week before our 1 year anniversary).

 

[Lotar]

I’m sorry, but this is clearly inadequate. I might as well claim you existing is a sin and I would have as much basis for that claim as the one you’ve asserted here. Until you can provide an adequate source for your condemnation, you simply have no case. Odd that you would beg the question on this issue if scripture so clearly taught against contraception, whether explicitly or by principle.

Actually, I explained it quite clearly, multiple times, in this thread. I am just tired of repeating myself.

At a point, more children are not so much of a blessing as a hardship. I hate to break it to you, but kids aren’t a bed of roses. It’s foolish to not plan for a family, continuing to have children you cannot provide for. I’m sorry, but God isn’t going to toss stacks of hundred dollar bills at you each time you have a kid to make sure you’re taken care of. He gave you a mind and the ability to reason for a purpose and how dare you condemn those who utilize what God has given them.

God will and does provide. Sure our children will not have their own Xbox 360s, PSPs and cell phones, and they probably won't be wearing Nordies, but I don't want my children to be spoiled narcistic little brats anyways.

Do you really serve a God who’s limited by birth control so that His will is thwarted by the medicine of men? What a weak God you serve.

God gives people choices, and often allows them to use their free will, even when it is obviously against His will. God's will is not thwarted by the medicine of men, though people do use it to sin, just as He is not thwarted by our other technologies that we use to commit sin.

 

[Jedi]

Actually, I explained it quite clearly, multiple times, in this thread. I am just tired of repeating myself.

Humor me with a little copy & paste action, then.

God will and does provide.

Tell that to the thousands who die of starvation every day. Tell that to those who die because they can't get basic medical care. There is no guarantee that God will provide and there's no sense in trusting God will do what He never promised to do.

God gives people choices

Yet here you are condemning people for exercising their right to choose. Odd, don't you think?

...and often allows them to use their free will, even when it is obviously against His will.

I'm sorry, but I've seen no convincing evidence of any kind that suggests contraception is against God's will.

God's will is not thwarted by the medicine of men

Then why are you even discussing the matter here? If medical measures of contraception are irrelevant to God's will, what problem do you have with it? You're complaining about an irrelevant matter - one that isn't even mentioned in scripture, nevermind condemned.

Again, there is no reason to believe that procreation is a necessary purpose for sex. Until someone - anyone - can show me how scripture teaches otherwise, whether explicitly or by principle, I remain unconvinced.

 

[Lotar]

Humor me with a little copy & paste action, then.

Or you can just go back and read.

Scriptural arguments can be derived from Genesis, Wisdom, Tobit, Psalms, Proverbs, 2 Kings, ect.

Tell that to the thousands who die of starvation every day. Tell that to those who die because they can't get basic medical care. There is no guarantee that God will provide and there's no sense in trusting God will do what He never promised to do.

Kind of an irrelevent statement.

Yet here you are condemning people for exercising their right to choose. Odd, don't you think?

Not really. When I state that murder is a sin, am I condemning people for exercising their right to choose? You can use your ability to choose in order to choose to do something that is sinful.

Then why are you even discussing the matter here? If medical measures of contraception are irrelevant to God's will, what problem do you have with it? You're complaining about an irrelevant matter - one that isn't even mentioned in scripture, nevermind condemned.

Again, there is no reason to believe that procreation is a necessary purpose for sex. Until someone - anyone - can show me how scripture teaches otherwise, whether explicitly or by principle, I remain unconvinced.

What was sex created for?
1.) Support the maritial bond.
2.) Procreation.

Both are the natural use for sex, as created by God. Removing the use of the first is the reason that adultery and fornication are wrong. Removing the use of the second is the reason that contraception is wrong. They are both acts of men twisting what God has given to us for sinful pleasure.

It is same as the reason that gluttony is wrong; it is using food outside of it's intended natural use of nurishment.

 

[Chie]

I agree there is no biblical scriptures. There are doctrines of men that people place their faith in as being truth.
Sexual relations was given to man and woman to be shared for procreation and for our pleasure, which is pleasing to the Lord.
The Word says the marriage bed is undefiled. This covers man and wife to share sexual relations without the out come of procreation alone and to have sexual intimacy with one another outside the sexual act of intercourse.
The sin Onan was guilty of was his disobedience and rebellion against the law. The motive and intent of his heart, not the act he did.

 

[tulc]

It's going well. We know it's going to be a boy, and he is do at the end of October (the week before our 1 year anniversary). (emph. added)

Lol! We had our first baby 2 weeks before our 1st anniv.!
tulc(congrats!)

 

[Jedi]

Or you can just go back and read.

Why would I go back and read 36 pages of debate when you could very easily copy & paste? The burden of proof is on you anyway, as any action is morally innocent until proven guilty. If you don’t want to provide, then hey, it doesn’t matter to me.

Scriptural arguments can be derived from Genesis, Wisdom, Tobit, Psalms, Proverbs, 2 Kings, ect

I have seen no such arguments stand against the heat of scrutiny. If you’d like to discuss any particular one, then do so, but saying something to the effect of “it’s in the Bible in some books” is inadequate.

Kind of an irrelevent statement.

Clearly relevant, as it falsifies your assertion that God will provide. He does not always provide. This being true, people shouldn’t fail to plan in making a family, continuing to have children they cannot provide for.

Not really. When I state that murder is a sin, am I condemning people for exercising their right to choose? You can use your ability to choose in order to choose to do something that is sinful.

Of course, but I have yet to see you or anyone else in the whole world in my many discussions concerning this topic provide even an ounce of evidence that suggests contraception is sinful.

What was sex created for?
1.) Support the maritial bond.
2.) Procreation.

Of course, but that doesn’t answer my objection: where do you get the idea that procreation is a necessary purpose for sex (i.e. someone shouldn’t do that action without that purpose in mind).

Removing the use of the first is the reason that adultery and fornication are wrong.

No, adultery and fornication are wrong regardless of how strong sex brings a couple together.

Removing the use of the second is the reason that contraception is wrong.

Logic fallacy: begging the question. “It is wrong because it is wrong.” You’re begging the question that procreation is a necessary purpose for sex. I’m still waiting for evidence. If you even came up with a pinch of evidence, I would be greatly amazed.

It is same as the reason that gluttony is wrong; it is using food outside of it's intended natural use of nurishment.

No, gluttony is wrong because of its adverse consequences. There are no inherent adverse consequences to contraception and there are, in fact, bad consequences that can result in not using it; look at overpopulation problems in 3rd world countries. Do you mean to say the overpopulation of Earth is God’s will? My apologies, but I’m not hoping on that train of death with you by refusing to use reason in planning a family without sacrificing intimacy with my spouse.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

The chances that my wife will have more than one or two after she hits 40 are pretty slim.

Don't bet on it!

Talk to me 20 years from now - when you're basically my age - and you'll be singing a different tune!

Unless your wife goes through early menopause, which is very unlikely as long as you keep having babies, you'll likely be having kids well into your 50s.

On the other hand, I'd venture a guess that after 2-3 kids, you and/or your wife will see this whole "anti-contraception" thing VERY differently!

 

[TheFathersDaughter]

and if it is a sin...why did Mary 'not have any more children'?? I mean come on..if it is a sin not to...poor Joseph....and I mean, come on..Mary was in sin too then.

Just to clarify, Mary did have more children I believe. Christ has blood brothers.

Also, I personally think that there are very limited circumstances to use contraceptives. Why? Because you could be preventing life very easily preventing a pregnancy God has planned. But that's extreme, since birth control doesn't always work. You shouldn't use it with the expectancy of preventing pregnancy since God will make you pregnant if thats in His plan.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

Just to clarify, Mary did have more children I believe. Christ has blood brothers.

Also, I personally think that there are very limited circumstances to use contraceptives. Why? Because you could be preventing life very easily preventing a pregnancy God has planned. But that's extreme, since birth control doesn't always work. You shouldn't use it with the expectancy of preventing pregnancy since God will make you pregnant if thats in His plan.

I think you've touched on something very important!

I know quite a few people who, despite having tubes tied or a vasectomy, got pregnant anyway. I guess if God wants to make a pregnancy happen, it will!