Contraception

[Benedicta00]

The Church as you put it Bene is made up of living stones with Christ being the cheif cornerstone. It is not a sect. It is a living and breathing body. With Christ as its head. THe scriptures are what feeds this living Church for the scriptures are truth. Anything apart from scripture is of man and does not need to be taken as from God. So with you adding to scripture calling BC a sin is indeed adding to the scriptures. For it is not written. To say that you can obstain and this is Gods will does not line up with scripture for we see where it is written that the only reason to obstain is for prayer.

okay fine- why do you belive ABC is morally acceptable and this is fine with God?

Who has told you this and how do you know they are right?

 

[Benedicta00]

Did Christ Himself tell Pope Urban II to start the Crusades - and lie to the people, telling them that if they die in battle they would automatically go to heaven?

If I were you, I'd be VERY careful about making claims - like that - about Christ's "revelations" to the Catholic Church!

Oy vey.. ppl who live in glass should not be throwing out stones.

Protestants have made mistakes and thought they were doing the right thing... case in point- the reformation itself.

although i disagree that fighting heresies that would stamp out Christianity was mistake. Maybe the means that were used were, but hey, they weren't called the "dark" ages for nothing. John Calvin even burned and man for denying the Trinity- that's the way things were then. In the 60's we thought it was good to kill black ppl and deny them human rights.

just as prior to the age of enlightenment- the puritans thought ppl with mental illness were witches who sold their soul to the devil, so they burned and hung them.

Today in this day and age we kill children in the womb and some even call themselves Christians and call it compassion., what ya gonna do? Every generation will suffer from a lack of truth.

 

[IamAdopted]

okay fine- why do you belive ABC is morally acceptable and this is fine with God?

Who has told you this and how do you know they are right?

Birth control is birth control. It does the very same thing. Prevents births. If God was against Bc as you say it would not matter whether you did it your way or someone had a surgery. Plain and simple. But He doesn't say He is for it is not written. But obstaining from sex for this cause can be refuted by scripture and the duty of the husband and the wife. Just that simple. I don't really care what kind of BC any one uses. It really is none of my business. For the marriage bed and having children are between God and the man and wife. IT is not sin. So why preach against it?

 

[Benedicta00]

You might as well stop your circular argument. I am NOT saying that NFP is condemned in Scripture. You ARE claiming that other forms of Birth Control are wrong.

You've admitted that NFP is YOUR choice of contraception.
I told you that a vasectomy was MY choice of contraception.

We chose different forms of the same thing. That is all. Stop being so un-Biblically judgmental!

All I'm asking here is on who's authority do you have it that ABC and sterilization is moral?

 

[StrangerThings]

Now, care to tell me who or what is the autherty that says to you ABC and sterilization is morally acceptable?

If you can not go to the bible for confirmation, then how do you know you are doing the right thing?

Finding verses in the Bible that seem to justify what you're doing aren't a good criteria to judge what's right and wrong. Virtually every evil man can commit is found in the Bible somewhere, and much of it can be found ordered by God in the OT.

In reality, there is no rational or Biblical reason to believe that contraception is immoral.

 

[Benedicta00]

Birth control is birth control. It does the very same thing. Prevents births. If God was against Bc as you say it would not matter whether you did it your way or someone had a surgery. Plain and simple. But He doesn't say He is for it is not written. But obstaining from sex for this cause can be refuted by scripture and the duty of the husband and the wife. Just that simple. I don't really care what kind of BC any one uses. It really is none of my business. For the marriage bed and having children are between God and the man and wife. IT is not sin. So why preach against it?

Because ABC ans sterilization is immoral, why? I guess I'll have to re state it.

God made the woman the way he did, no? Why change her? Did God make her wrong or something?

What sense is there is taking a working organ that God made working and destroy it by making it useless?


What gave you the impression that god is pleased with this? With man changing the way He made the body?

If God did not want yo to be fertile, don't you think he would make you infertile himself?

 

[Benedicta00]

Finding verses in the Bible that seem to justify what you're doing aren't a good criteria to judge what's right and wrong. Virtually every evil man can commit is found in the Bible somewhere, and much of it can be found ordered by God in the OT.

In reality, there is no rational or Biblical reason to believe that contraception is immoral.

and you know you are not making a mistake by using ABC becuase_____?? and you just gave a good argument for why God gave us His Church and not just a bible that is subject to interpretation.

 

[IamAdopted]

All I'm asking here is on who's authority do you have it that ABC and sterilization is moral?

I have scripture that leads me Bene. It is not written that it is immorral. We see what immorality is written in the scriptures and birth control is not one of them. So therefore it must not be immoral. Or God would surley have put it there for us to know. You want to make a big case out of BC because it goes against the sect you belong to. But scriptures has nothing to say about it being moral or immoral. This is just added bunk to the many other things some sects like to put on the back of people to bring more guilt and condmnation. We walk with Jesus bene and We learn of Him for His yoke is easy and His burden is light. YOu want someone to show and justify to you what does not need any justification. For what reason is this? Birth control is birth control. By your standards all food bought out of the grocery store have food altering artificials in them. You put them in your body. You use gasoline in your car that puts pollutants in the air. So if you want justification for this little thing called BC where do you think that Any of these things are pleasing to God? What justifies all this? Can you answer these questions? Lay off of people and thier freedom to us what bc they want to us.

 

[MezzaMorta]

God made the woman the way he did, no? Why change her? Did God make her wrong or something?

So if someone has a pendisiteus you are against surgery to save their life?

What sense is there is taking a working organ that God made working and destroy it by making it useless?

Birth control does not make it useless.

If God did not want yo to be fertile, don't you think he would make you infertile himself?

Thats like saying if God wanted us to be Christian he wouldn't have allowed other religions.

Are you also against women who are infertile undergoing treatment to cure them and allow them to have children?

 

[Benedicta00]

So if someone has a pendisiteus you are against surgery to save their life?



Birth control does not make it useless.




Thats like saying if God wanted us to be Christian he wouldn't have allowed other religions.

Are you also against women who are infertile undergoing treatment to cure them and allow them to have children?

surgery to save ones life is different from surgery solely for the sole purpose of not conceiving children.

 

[MezzaMorta]

surgery to save ones life is different from surgery solely for the sole purpose of not conceiving children.

How? You said "God made the woman the way he did, no? Why change her?"

If God made someones appendix rupture why change it?

 

[Benedicta00]

I have scripture that leads me Bene. It is not written that it is immorral. We see what immorality is written in the scriptures and birth control is not one of them. So therefore it must not be immoral. Or God would surley have put it there for us to know. You want to make a big case out of BC because it goes against the sect you belong to. But scriptures has nothing to say about it being moral or immoral. This is just added bunk to the many other things some sects like to put on the back of people to bring more guilt and condmnation. We walk with Jesus bene and We learn of Him for His yoke is easy and His burden is light. YOu want someone to show and justify to you what does not need any justification. For what reason is this? Birth control is birth control. By your standards all food bought out of the grocery store have food altering artificials in them. You put them in your body. You use gasoline in your car that puts pollutants in the air. So if you want justification for this little thing called BC where do you think that Any of these things are pleasing to God? What justifies all this? Can you answer these questions? Lay off of people and thier freedom to us what bc they want to us.

It isn't written that it is, but do you think it really is?

How can you believe that based on all that we know about it?

The low does pills, shots, etc can abort a child. This is proven and a real fact.

It can give woman cancer, heart attack, blood clots, it can cause her to be infertile.

How can we really say this is of God or good?

i await you response how we can call this thing "good" and/or of God.

 

[Benedicta00]

How? You said "God made the woman the way he did, no? Why change her?"

If God made someones appendix rupture why change it?

becuase God didnt create us with an appendix that is intended to burst.

Why do you categorise fertility with illness?

 

[sempervirens]

One can abuse NFP with a contraceptive mentality but there is a difference. With NFP one does not close the sexual act to the possibility of life. If one becomes pregnant using NFP they should not view it as a "failure" but a natural if unlikely outcome of having sex as God intended. Suprising and at the same time not so suprising, but no "failure". Marital love is meant to be an earthly icon of the God's inner love and love for us, a glimpse of the reward which awaits us at the wedding feast of the Lamb.

Periodic abstinence is the absence of sex - one can't distort the act if its not present to begin with.

With contraception one alters the language of the body, and the message of the act.

There is a sacramental aspect of sexuality - for it is not until the marriage is consummated that the sacrament is sealed as the two become one flesh with the complete self-giving of one to another. Subsequent relations are an anamnesis, a reflection and renewal of that joining.

And for those who would say that Onan was struck dead by God for simply violating jewish law to fulfill a duty to a dead brother, a close reading presented in this Month's Homiletic and Pastoral Review notes that this is not the likely explanation.

1) '"he spilled his seed on the ground" fails to do full justice to the Hebrew expression. The Hebrew verb shichet never means to spill or waste, rather it means to act perversely. The text also makes clear that his perverse action was related toward the ground, not against his brother' ...

2) In the context of the entire chapter, Genesis 38, it is clear that Onan is only one of three persons who violated the law. Judah and Shelah were also guilty of this, why was only Onan struck dead?

3) The law spells out the consequences of Onan's failure to perform his duty as the brother of a dead man - in Deut 25:5-10 (an embarassing rebuke but not death - in contrast to other sexual sins such as adultery and rape in which death is prescribed in the same book) - so why was Onan struck dead?

 

[MezzaMorta]

becuase God didnt create us with an appendix that is intended to burst.

How do you know?

I will quote what you said again

"God made the woman the way he did, no? Why change her?"

If God made someone with an appendix that bursts, he made them that way (according to you). Why change it?

 

[IamAdopted]

It isn't written that it is, but do you think it really is?

How can you believe that based on all that we know about it?

The low does pills, shots, etc can abort a child. This is proven and a real fact.

It can give woman cancer, heart attack, blood clots, it can cause her to be infertile.

How can we really say this is of God or good?

i await you response how we can call this thing "good" and/or of God.

I do not believe that BC is immoral. NO I do not. For many reasons. I am not one that believes in BC pills. But for surgery or other methods I do not believe that it is immoral and not good. If a woman can take BC pills and they do not effect them then Praise God for these. Some take these for other reasons other than BC.

 

[StrangerThings]

and you know you are not making a mistake by using ABC becuase_____??

Because there is no reason to think I am wrong.

How do you know you're not making a mistake?

and you just gave a good argument for why God gave us His Church and not just a bible that is subject to interpretation.

Right, because the world needed another organization to spread lies and hatred of Jews around, sanction cold blooded murder, and give us a dizzying amount of inane rules and regulations.

 

[ParsonJefferson]

All I'm asking here is on who's authority do you have it that ABC and sterilization is moral?

...and I'm saying that it's the SAME authority whereby you put kneeling benches in Catholic Church.

Specifically - there are NO explicit, stated-in-exact-words in the Bible that says, "When you're 40 you should have a vasectomy." Just as there are no words in the Bible that say, "You should not use anything other than Natural Family Planning."

That's the whole point: You have chosen YOUR form of birth control, and I have chosen mine. The difference is that I'm not trying to prove that yours is wrong, or condemn you for using it.

 

[Benedicta00]

...and I'm saying that it's the SAME authority whereby you put kneeling benches in Catholic Church.

Specifically - there are NO explicit, stated-in-exact-words in the Bible that says, "When you're 40 you should have a vasectomy." Just as there are no words in the Bible that say, "You should not use anything other than Natural Family Planning."

That's the whole point: You have chosen YOUR form of birth control, and I have chosen mine. The difference is that I'm not trying to prove that yours is wrong, or condemn you for using it.

We put kneelers in Church becuase we believe it is quite biblical to kneel down before God.

But I guess what you are saying is this is something you give your self permission to do? How do you know you are not mistaken?

There is a huge difference in putting in a kneeler in Church to make the knees comfortable and destroying or stifling fertility.

Think for a second about what it would mean if you were wrong? if we were wrong about kneelers in Church I don't see that is having the same effect on the cosmos.

 

[Benedicta00]

How do you know?

I will quote what you said again

"God made the woman the way he did, no? Why change her?"

If God made someone with an appendix that bursts, he made them that way (according to you). Why change it?

Because a woman or man's fertility is not a illness or disease that need treatment.