• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Contraception

Status
Not open for further replies.

NHB_MMA

Veteran
Apr 9, 2006
1,389
52
✟31,814.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
is it true that if the Orthodox calendar is followed strictly, there are only 50 days in the year on which a couple may have intercourse (unless advised otherwise by their pastor)? I imagine that this would be a highly effective form of natural birth control.

I think I read this somewhere, if i'm wrong, then :sorry:

I haven't heard this before, but I wouldn't act like 50 days is very little. Most people I've heard talk that have been married for any length of time are lucky to have sex a couple times per year.
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Actually, most Jews take the word nephresh (meaning "breath") so literally that they're pro-choice, believing that life begins with breathing. So most Jews don't have the same reproductive views as most Christians at all.
I'm talking of Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox, not the others.
 
Upvote 0

NHB_MMA

Veteran
Apr 9, 2006
1,389
52
✟31,814.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Where do we ever see it being used in the bible?

And I do expect to see a biblical citation of it being used in the bible and Jesus saying using it is morally acceptable, least your requirement that everything has to be found in scripture is a contradiction because you can not support your premise that it is okay.

Well, specifics of the sex life are not addressed in graphic detail in the Bible. It's a pretty personal thing and I wouldn't expect to see such an issue in black and white.

I do admire your addressing the "Scriptural requirement" because my beef with Protestantism has long been that Sola Scriptura is a total myth.

And Lotar, I was under the impression that the Orthodox do allow for barrier types of BC such as condoms? Am I wrong?

I'm reading this thread in order and have not yet got to Lotar's response. However, I will say the EOC is not as absolutist as the RCC about the contraception issue. I read on a thread the TAW forum sometime ago that apparently some Orthodox theologians have called for a more modern, tolerant view towards some forms of contraception, but others are very rigid in their opposition. Basically, the historical view on it largely mirrors the RCC reasoning, but it is not automatically grounds for denying a couple fellowship as indicated in this link: http://www.oca.org/QA.asp?ID=147&SID=3
 
Upvote 0

NHB_MMA

Veteran
Apr 9, 2006
1,389
52
✟31,814.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
I look forward to your rational/justification for mankind's invention of artificial contraceptives.

How is NFP any different? God knows the heart. It is still a desire to not have children at a given point in time. It is still rejecting God's blessings, if you agree with that line of reasoning.
 
Upvote 0

ArcticFox

To glorify God, and enjoy him forever.
Sep 27, 2006
1,197
169
Japan
Visit site
✟32,152.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
That's the reality we face with contraception. There is in actuality nothing about it in the Scriptures. There is a general call on humanity to multiply and subdue the earth, but we must be careful not to extrapolate general commands to every individual. Jesus commanded to go out into all the world, but does that mean that everyone leaves their home and goes elsewhere? Than no one would be anywhere! After all, staying in one place, even if it isn't where you were born, still fails to "go out into *all* the world." General commands are just that, general, and apply to the whole of the group addressed, not to every individual member. Just as we obey this command to "go out into all the world" by also sending missionaries, supporting them financially, sending other resources, praying, and creating strategic organizations for intelligence and planning.

With contraceptions, however, we have no particular guidelines. Therefore, my church, and in my belief system, we must make that decision according to the individual conscience before God, well informed of the Word. There are many principles that apply to all sorts of areas of life without being direct commands. When one decides to have children and how many is not a commandment; it's a thing of personal conscience.

Yes, there are many who don't use their personal conscience for the good of God, and like to ignore principles of Scripture. Just because something can be abused doesn't mean we should throw it out. After all, some become pastors just for a job, but do we eliminate the position and pay?

Everyone must examine all the evidence available to them and make the decision that they feel best glorifies God. The goal is to make that not only based on feelings, but based on principles in the Word of God; whatever could apply to your situation, try to apply it. Fill your head with God's Word everyday throughout the day, and then you will be able to make godly decisions.

I personally made the decision for my wife and I that we will not use the birth control pill -- it damages our witness in the fight against abortion, because of the possibility of expelling fertilized eggs. That's a decision we made together before God, and we believe that all others should do the same if they are using the pill as birth control (preventing pregnancy). However, our case is not rock-solid enough to make a huge issue of it, and we take some solace from the fact that the fertilized egg feels no pain being expelled (unlike many abortions, where the fetus experiences pain and suffering).
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
This was at a time when having children was of such importance that the society practiced polygamy. You're Orthodox (the faith I am closest to, theologically) so perhaps you're aware that Vladimir Zhironovsky advocated that Russia legalize polygamy, as many women are unable to find suitable husbands and the population of Russia is declining. The Russian Orthodox Church expressed strong opposition, but if children are so essential within a marriage and we're digging Scripture out from the days of Onan as almost the entire basis for the argument, how about the rest of the marital customs of those times? It was a man's duty back in those days to give his brother's widow children, but the church has long abandoned that practice. In fact, in those days, infertile men were looked down upon, as if they were inferior, but no one would be so insensitive to do so today. I just find the Onan argument weak.

I believe that common sense would tell us that we're talking about a time in which the population of the earth was very, very low compared to today and that populating it was a necessity. Today, the world clearly has no population shortage.

There are also arguments from Tobit, Wisdom, the Psalms, 2 Kings, ect. Still, if you understand anything about Orthodoxy, you know that Scripture is only part of Tradition, and that the morality of contraception has been a subject discussed since the very beginnings of the Church.

In the time that the Old Testament was written the human race was far from being in danger of dying out.

Where do you draw the line? Why is it okay to have sex with no contraception on days of the cycle when pregnancy is highly unlikely? Maybe the proper thing is to have sex only during the times when pregnancy is most likely, not least likely?

Even NFP is not okay. It is something granted as economy, under the supervision of one's spiritual father.

The difference between the two is the abstaining is an ascetic act, that is very much in line with the whole philosophy; if you don't want to get pregnant, don't have sex.

Contraception deviods the maritial act of it's procreative purpose. God created sex for two main purposes: to bond husband and wife, and for procreation of the race. To willfully subvert one or both of the aspects for which sexual intercourse was created for is to go against God's will. This is why it is sinful to have sex with someone who is not your spouse, and this is why it is sinful to make the sex act barren.

For individual bans: Barrier methods are forms of Onanism, surgical sterility is a form castration, and pharmaceutical methods are abortive.
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So if someone dies it die because God wanted them too?
Indeed.

The same argument he makes could also be applied to abortion, which does fail sometimes. "If God wants the baby to live, it will live."
 
Upvote 0

MezzaMorta

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2006
3,526
107
✟4,292.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Private
Indeed.

The same argument he makes could also be applied to abortion, which does fail sometimes. "If God wants the baby to live, it will live."

So how are you against abortion then? If God choose who dies, the babys that are aborted (according to you) are done so because God wants it?
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
So how are you against abortion then? If God choose who dies, the babys that are aborted (according to you) are done so because God wants it?
I think you are missing my point. Babies are murdered because mothers and doctors use their free will and choose to murder them, despite the fact that God wills them not to be. God may work a miracle and save the child, but that does not mean that the other times He actually wanted the children to die.

It's the same thing with contraception: People subvert God's will and choose to try and prevent pregnancy. Statistically speaking, they may still get pregnant, but that does not mean that God was cool with it the times they successfully prevented pregnancy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Benedicta00
Upvote 0

NHB_MMA

Veteran
Apr 9, 2006
1,389
52
✟31,814.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
I much rather have a women use the birth control pill than get unexpectantly preagnent and end up having to go have an abortion. People are going to have sex outside of marriage, it aways has occurred and aways will. Using protection is far less of a wrong then destroying an innocent life.

Excellent point! And a man has no say in the matter (abortion) legally, so if there is any doubt as to whether two people are on the same page, contraception is a good thing.
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Excellent point! And a man has no say in the matter (abortion) legally, so if there is any doubt as to whether two people are on the same page, contraception is a good thing.
The pill often causes abortions.

The morality of using BC while fornicating is a pretty useless issue; its sin either way.
 
Upvote 0

MezzaMorta

Well-Known Member
Aug 11, 2006
3,526
107
✟4,292.00
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Private
I think you are missing my point. Babies are murdered because mothers and doctors use their free will and choose to murder them, despite the fact that God wills them not to be. God may work a miracle and save the child, but that does not mean that the other times He actually wanted the children to die.

It's the same thing with contraception: People subvert God's will and choose to try and prevent pregnancy. Statistically speaking, they may still get pregnant, but that does not mean that God was cool with it the times they successfully prevented pregnancy.

Either God choose who lives and dies, or he is completely absent from the process.

He gave us free will, the conception or death of an individual is not an act of God but an act of nature and use of our free will.
 
Upvote 0

Lotar

Swift Eagle Justice
Feb 27, 2003
8,163
445
45
Southern California
✟34,644.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Either God choose who lives and dies, or he is completely absent from the process.

I think it is rather more complicated than that.

He gave us free will, the conception or death of an individual is not an act of God but an act of nature and use of our free will.

Pretty much.

The whole "we'll still get pregnant while on BC if God wants us too" argument is like saying, "if God doesn't want this person to die, the bullet will bounce off when I shoot him".
 
Upvote 0

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
40
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
Sorry to come into this thread so late, but something just occurred to me re: Benedicta's repeated iteration of God making women's bodies to be fertile at times and infertile at times, but disease being a result of the Fall.

In the OT (the Law, as well as the Prophets), God refers to a woman's monthly period as "unclean." Now, why would God, before the Fall occurred, design woman so that one week of every month she was unclean and impure in his sight? Is it possible that menstruation is something that happened to our bodies after the Fall?

For the record, I'm not really sure where I'm going with this - just wanted to throw that out there.
excelent question!
 
Upvote 0

EnemyPartyII

Well-Known Member
Sep 12, 2006
11,524
893
40
✟20,084.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
I am almost 40, I have 6 kids, one husband and had one partner all my life (my husband). We are middle class I guess you could say and we have struggled with money on and off over the years.

Does this answer your question? And what does this have to do with my question? What makes my question so difficult? It's simple, if you believe in ABC, why? What is the justification for it and is it moral, if so why?
I believe ABC is moral because it prevents a greater evil... over population.

I don't buy the "its wrong because God didn't make us that way" argument, because humans have been using artificial tools to act in ways different to how God made them for as long as there have been humans.

Artificial contraception is a tool... morally, no different to a hammer.

Now certainly, like a hammer, I believe there are situations where it can be used immorally, but thats a very different thing to saying it is inherently immoral.

My reason for asking about you age, children, et al... I just wonder how much experience you have of wanting to have sex at a time when a child would be really inconvenient?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.