Continuing research into the possibility of the reality of the Exodus, and current data/conclusions.

[AV1611VET]

Looks just like some kind of threat to me.

That "threat" was literally fulfilled.

Numbers 14:30 Doubtless ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I sware to make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

And they got one year sentencing for each day the spies were in the land.

Numbers 14:34 After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

Given there's no physical evidence of any carcases, I'd say that's exactly what it was.

Me too!

 

[sjastro]

Well, lol, it would be a very obvious mistake to think that a lack of evidence is a proof of anything. (that made me laugh)

I've been in deserts a lot. One doesn't see a lot of bones everywhere. Even though it's dry.... When you are hiking in a semi-arid or desert area, you might only come upon only a relatively small amount of bones, and a group stops when they do find any, because it's remarkable and interesting. Why aren't bones everywhere since it's dry? In most deserts or semi-arid areas, one sees plenty of vultures and the equivalent of large coyotes or small wolves, etc. at times, and you get it.

But it doesn't prove anything happened in particular re the Exodus story. It just helps eliminate only one flawed theory: that there would have to be a lot of bones from an Israelite exodus -- that would only be the case if they were carefully sealing the bones somehow.... And then if one has read the text account, it's clear in the text they are not generally burying bodies anywhere in the text, but constantly on the move (but for Sabbaths).

So, this idea that such a movement of tens of thousands would have to leave bones was just a weak theory, but shooting down that weak theory didn't prove anything except only that that one theory wasn't holding water. ;-) (get it, dry, desert, not holding water.... we should not take these discussions too seriously! These discussions ought to be only friendly and humorous or such)

You are going around in circles focusing purely on human remains at the expense of everything else.

Pottery was a major technological discovery from Paleolithic times and is the most common archaeological artefact found.
Dismissing a generation of late bronze age people of not using pottery when pottery was found in earlier times in the Sinai by small mobile groups of nomads makes no sense.
Whether you like it or not as mentioned in a previous post, it is the lack late bronze age pottery attributed to the Israelites for being the main reason why the majority of archaeologists dismiss Exodus as being historical.

Along with pottery other toolkits which mysteriously never show up in the archaeological record for the late bronze age Sinai, are bronze tools in the form of axes, adzes, chisels, knives and spearheads, or tools used for metalworking such as molds, crucibles and hammerstones.
Personal items such as combs, needles and pins made from bone and antlers and metal jewelry such as bracelets rings and necklaces are also absent.
Strange how not a single trace is found in the archaeological record if Exodus was a historical account.

 

[AV1611VET]

Along with pottery other toolkits which mysteriously never show up in the archaeological record for the late bronze age Sinai, are bronze tools in the form of axes, adzes, chisels, knives and spearheads, or tools used for metalworking such as molds, crucibles and hammerstones.
Personal items such as combs, needles and pins made from bone and antlers and metal jewelry such as bracelets rings and necklaces are also absent.
Strange how not a single trace is found in the archaeological record if Exodus was a historical account.

Musta left in a hurry?

Ya think?

Exodus 12:33 And the Egyptians were urgent upon the people, that they might send them out of the land in haste; for they said, We be all dead men.
34 And the people took their dough before it was leavened, their kneadingtroughs being bound up in their clothes upon their shoulders.
35 And the children of Israel did according to the word of Moses; and they borrowed of the Egyptians jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment:
36 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they lent unto them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians.

 

[sjastro]

Here is a short video on the evolution of ancient pottery of Canaan and Israel during the Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages.
It is this type of evidence which refutes the Exodus as a historical event as this style of pottery was never found in Egypt where the Israelites settled according to Genesis before being enslaved by the Egyptians which ultimately resulted in the Exodus.

The archaeology indicates the Israelites originated from Canaan and stayed there.

 

[Neogaia777]

Here is a short video on the evolution of ancient pottery of Canaan and Israel during the Neolithic, Chalcolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages.
It is this type of evidence which refutes the Exodus as a historical event as this style of pottery was never found in Egypt where the Israelites settled according to Genesis before being enslaved by the Egyptians which ultimately resulted in the Exodus.

The archaeology indicates the Israelites originated from Canaan and stayed there.

They would be very, very few with the reduced numbers, as they would have only been one, or just a few families to start out with before they were enslaved and were probably using Egyptian pottery after that by the Egyptians.

The ratio of Egyptian pottery in existence during that time period, and all time periods, compared to any Hebrew pottery that might have been there or might have been in existence in Egypt before the Hebrews/Israelites were enslaved is off the scale/charts compared to the amount of Egyptian pottery that would have been there or would have been in existence there, etc.

It would literally be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack archaeological wise, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

@sjastro

Someone messaged me about you, and others on here, and I messaged them back, and instead of editing this, I'm just going to post it "as is" and with the parts that are relevant here, etc.

But if you want to try to continue with him as to what he's talking about right now, pottery shards, tools, and all of that, etc, tell him that there would be very little evidence of that with the Israelites, if any at all, etc. Those other nomadic groups for which they are finding those kinds of things, had regular sites that they would stay at and stop at for generations upon generations very, very regularly, and sometimes would stay for long periods of time, and also would not always take everything with them, but would leave some things behind, etc, whereas that was never ever the case with the Israelites, and also who were only in that wilderness for just only one generation only also, and also rarely ever stayed or camped in the exact same place twice ever, etc. And while we all already know he doesn't believe in any of this, God was also sustaining everything they had and was causing it not to ever break, or wear out also, etc, the Bible mentions shoes and clothing, but I am very, very sure it was a bunch of other things as well, so there was also probably not very much need for them to craft anything new, or get rid of anything old, etc. And the number of Israelites was probably around 20 thousand instead of 2 million also, but I've already mentioned that a bunch of times already, and already submitted what I think is the proof for that already, etc.

But and/or anyway I have my answers to this for now that fully satisfy me for now already, so I'm pretty much done going rounds with him for now, etc, and I'm also going to be playing video games after this for a little while also that will keep me pretty busy now for probably a good month or two also, or for a little while, etc, so I'm not going to have much time for any of this on here for a little while, etc. I've been waiting for this game for almost two years, so I'm definitely going to be playing it as much as I can for a little while.

But you can try some of these points on him if you really want to, etc.

Later Friend.

God Bless.

 

[sjastro]

They would be very, very few with the reduced numbers, as they would have only been one, or just a few families to start out with before they were enslaved and were probably using Egyptian pottery after that by the Egyptians.

The ratio of Egyptian pottery in existence during that time period, and all time periods, compared to any Hebrew pottery that might have been there or might have been in existence in Egypt before the Hebrews/Israelites were enslaved is off the scale/charts compared to the amount of Egyptian pottery that would have been there or would have been in existence there, etc.

It would literally be like looking for the proverbial needle in a haystack archaeological wise, etc.

God Bless.

It's ironical I need to use Bible quotes to refute your post.

First of all according to Genesis 47:27.
Now the Israelites settled in Egypt in the region of Goshen. They acquired property there and were fruitful and increased greatly in number.

​

Second according to Exodus 12:40 they were in Egypt for a very long time.
The length of time that the Israelites lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years.

According to the Bible they were in Egypt long enough to leave an archaeological record of their culture through pottery.

 

[Neogaia777]

It's ironical I need to use Bible quotes to refute your post.

First of all according to Genesis 47:27.
Now the Israelites settled in Egypt in the region of Goshen. They acquired property there and were fruitful and increased greatly in number.

View attachment 343395
​

Second according to Exodus 12:40 they were in Egypt for a very long time.
The length of time that the Israelites lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years.

According to the Bible they were in Egypt long enough to leave an archaeological record of their culture through pottery.

Did the excavate there, or at that site?

And the Bible also says/indicates that it only took one or two generations for them to become enslaved as well, and they wouldn't have been making or using Hebrew/Israelite pottery after that, so let's say 80 years after the original families originally settled there, etc, and who might have been increasingly quickly in number, but there still were not that many of them yet with just the original families, etc, and then, take that 80 years and compare it to how long Egyptians were settled there in Goshen over all of the years, and with their pottery there over the years, and also before that, etc, and you still almost get the proverbial needle in a haystack still, etc.

God Bless.

 

[Neogaia777]

Did the excavate there, or at that site?

And the Bible also says/indicates that it only took one or two generations for them to become enslaved as well, and they wouldn't have been making or using Hebrew/Israelite pottery after that, so let's say 80 years after the original families originally settled there, etc, and who might have been increasingly quickly in number, but there still were not that many of them yet with just the original families, etc, and then, take that 80 years and compare it to how long Egyptians were settled there in Goshen over all of the years, and with their pottery there over the years, and also before that, etc, and you still almost get the proverbial needle in a haystack still, etc.

God Bless.

@sjastro

They also may not have been using Hebrew pottery either, but maybe Egyptian, etc.

But even then also, even if they were using Hebrew pottery for 80 years in Egypt, why do you still think there would be any there, etc?

I mean, it's not like it was buried or anything, and after the Hebrews got enslaved, and Egyptians moved back in, with their Egyptian pottery, etc, how much other kind of pottery do you even think would still be in that area, or that would have still been kept in that area, or would still even be there, etc?

Anyway, my point is that there are many, many possibilities, and until all of those possibilities are 100% negated, then I'm still going to remain open to them, etc.

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

I find this pottery argument a very weak argument against the Jews living in Egypt.

Their pottery was probably confiscated and sold to Ismaelites or other merchants.

Exodus 1:8 Now there arose up a new king over Egypt, which knew not Joseph.
9 And he said unto his people, Behold, the people of the children of Israel are more and mightier than we:
10 Come on, let us deal wisely with them; lest they multiply, and it come to pass, that, when there falleth out any war, they join also unto our enemies, and fight against us, and so get them up out of the land.

And as my previous post points out, we see by the time of the Exodus, they had to borrow from the Egyptians.

This new king, who "dealt wisely with them," probably "wisely" took everything they had, prior to enslaving them, prior to implementing a genocide program against them by having all male babies killed.

I can't picture our slaves here in America in the 1800's wearing diamond rings and gold chains around their necks.

And anything they made of value would have been taken by their slave owners.

To quote Paul Revere:

They took the whole Cherokee nation
Put us on this reservation
Took away our ways of life
The tomahawk and the bow and knife
Took away our native tongue
And taught their English to our young
And all the beads we made by hand
Are nowadays made in Japan

 

[sjastro]

@sjastro

Someone messaged me about you, and others on here, and I messaged them back, and instead of editing this, I'm just going to post it "as is" and with the parts that are relevant here, etc.

But if you want to try to continue with him as to what he's talking about right now, pottery shards, tools, and all of that, etc, tell him that there would be very little evidence of that with the Israelites, if any at all, etc. Those other nomadic groups for which they are finding those kinds of things, had regular sites that they would stay at and stop at for generations upon generations very, very regularly, and sometimes would stay for long periods of time, and also would not always take everything with them, but would leave some things behind, etc, whereas that was never ever the case with the Israelites, and also who were only in that wilderness for just only one generation only also, and also rarely ever stayed or camped in the exact same place twice ever, etc. And while we all already know he doesn't believe in any of this, God was also sustaining everything they had and was causing it not to ever break, or wear out also, etc, the Bible mentions shoes and clothing, but I am very, very sure it was a bunch of other things as well, so there was also probably not very much need for them to craft anything new, or get rid of anything old, etc. And the number of Israelites was probably around 20 thousand instead of 2 million also, but I've already mentioned that a bunch of times already, and already submitted what I think is the proof for that already, etc.

But and/or anyway I have my answers to this for now that fully satisfy me for now already, so I'm pretty much done going rounds with him for now, etc, and I'm also going to be playing video games after this for a little while also that will keep me pretty busy now for probably a good month or two also, or for a little while, etc, so I'm not going to have much time for any of this on here for a little while, etc. I've been waiting for this game for almost two years, so I'm definitely going to be playing it as much as I can for a little while.

But you can try some of these points on him if you really want to, etc.

Later Friend.

God Bless.

There are two gaping holes in this argument.
First one can use the same argument for the late bronze age where generations upon generations of nomads would have left some evidence of their presence for exactly the same reasons as their predecessors, yet there is a dearth of late bronze age sites which should be easier to find in the layers above the older sites.
The late bronze age sites which have been found are predominately Egyptian and not from nomadic peoples.

There is a reason for this as explained in this map.

During the late bronze age Egypt was the superpower of the region with an empire which extended to the southern border of modern day Turkey.
It’s not surprising with Sinai under Egyptian control, the restriction of people movement and controlling of one’s borders which we can identify as being modern day issues explains the lack of late bronze age sites due to the suppression of nomadism unlike earlier times.

This leads to another problem with Exodus, if it did occur during the early New Kingdom when Egypt had its empire, how were 20K Israelites able to fight their way out of Egypt and reach Canaan which was also under Egyptian control at the time?
The Bible makes no references to the Israelites battling Egyptians on reaching Canaan.

The second hole in the argument is this is a science forum with the emphasis on evidence, archaeology does not and cannot show God assisted the Israelites.

 

[sjastro]

Did the excavate there, or at that site?

And the Bible also says/indicates that it only took one or two generations for them to become enslaved as well, and they wouldn't have been making or using Hebrew/Israelite pottery after that, so let's say 80 years after the original families originally settled there, etc, and who might have been increasingly quickly in number, but there still were not that many of them yet with just the original families, etc, and then, take that 80 years and compare it to how long Egyptians were settled there in Goshen over all of the years, and with their pottery there over the years, and also before that, etc, and you still almost get the proverbial needle in a haystack still, etc.

God Bless.

Neogaia777 said:

@sjastro

They also may not have been using Hebrew pottery either, but maybe Egyptian, etc.

But even then also, even if they were using Hebrew pottery for 80 years in Egypt, why do you still think there would be any there, etc?

I mean, it's not like it was buried or anything, and after the Hebrews got enslaved, and Egyptians moved back in, with their Egyptian pottery, etc, how much other kind of pottery do you even think would still be in that area, or that would have still been kept in that area, or would still even be there, etc?

Anyway, my point is that there are many, many possibilities, and until all of those possibilities are 100% negated, then I'm still going to remain open to them, etc.

God Bless.

The archaeological evidence totally contradicts your scenarios.

There was a migration into the Nile delta region starting from around 1800 BC, they were not Israelites but Hyksos.
Initially the Egyptians and Hyksos coexisted in the delta before the Hyksos took control of most of the country.
We know this from the evidence where the Hyksos buried their horses which they introduced to Egypt, their form of pottery was in the form of ornamental scarabs and most importantly from the Egyptians themselves who eventually acknowledged them as rulers of Egypt as pharaohs with non-Egyptian Asiatic names.

The Egyptians characterized the Hyksos by their distinctive clothes.

They were expelled from Egypt and pursued into the Near East at the start of the New Kingdom which led to the idea from both modern and ancient scholars the Hyksos were the Israelites of the Exodus.
This is however contradicted given the Hyksos did not practice monotheism unlike the Israelites.

 

[Halbhh]

Whether you like it or not as mentioned in a previous post, it is the lack late bronze age pottery attributed to the Israelites for being the main reason why the majority of archaeologists dismiss Exodus as being historical.

I see I need to explain my attitude about this thread/topic, which might be rare or hard to imagine.

While the OP seems to be about a practical question -- how many people in the group -- but even if the theory of a number closer to 20K or 30K is correct, it's not correct to think the topic is about practical matters.

Let me show you more clearly why that's so -- you mentioned there's not any discarded pottery, etc.

Ok? Oddly enough, that's not even a possible side topic to the context of the story....

Here's why -- look at what is typical stuff in the text we are inadvertently discussing:

Yet the LORD says, “During the forty years that I led you through the wilderness, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet."

See? We read their shoes didn't even wear out, not even clothing after 40 years of abusive desert wanderings?....

That's impossible.

See what I'm saying?

Of course there's no broken pottery left behind! The text is saying not even their clothing wore out....

See how that's impossible? Clothing wears out. Sandals. Pottery eventually cracks one day, etc. -- in normal life.

See what I meant when I wrote to you 'it's a religious topic'?

I'm mean c'mon, let's be real -- they would have all quickly starved to death normally....

So, the text is mostly just a lengthy string of impossible miraculous stuff, with a few breaks to lay out some laws/rules/procedures to occupy them and begin to get them to act better, etc.

It's not even slightly a text about a desert journey or survival like you or I would try to do in some practical way.

The text is about stuff that doesn't happen normally (or ever), and things that appear physically impossible a lot of places in the text, etc.

It's a miracle story, basically. It's not a practical story like say the journey of Lewis and Clark.

 

[Neogaia777]

@sjastro

A Google search and asking the right questions is already providing many, many possibilities to refute your claims, but I'm not going to stop and research every one, or stop to try and refute every single one, but just know that there are always other possibilities to refute your claims.

God Bless.

 

[AV1611VET]

The Sinai Peninsula ⁝ the Biblical Roanoke.

 

[sjastro]

I see I need to explain my attitude about this thread/topic, which might be rare or hard to imagine.

While the OP seems to be about a practical question -- how many people in the group -- but even if the theory of a number closer to 20K or 30K is correct, it's not correct to think the topic is about practical matters.

Let me show you more clearly why that's so -- you mentioned there's not any discarded pottery, etc.

Ok? Oddly enough, that's not even a possible side topic to the context of the story....

Here's why -- look at what is typical stuff in the text we are inadvertently discussing:



See? We read their shoes didn't even wear out, not even clothing after 40 years of abusive desert wanderings?....

That's impossible.

See what I'm saying?

Of course there's no broken pottery left behind! The text is saying not even their clothing wore out....

See how that's impossible? Clothing wears out. Sandals. Pottery eventually cracks one day, etc. -- in normal life.

See what I meant when I wrote to you 'it's a religious topic'?

I'm mean c'mon, let's be real -- they would have all quickly starved to death normally....

So, the text is mostly just a lengthy string of impossible miraculous stuff, with a few breaks to lay out some laws/rules/procedures to occupy them and begin to get them to act better, etc.

It's not even slightly a text about a desert journey or survival like you or I would try to do in some practical way.

The text is about stuff that doesn't happen normally (or ever), and things that appear physically impossible a lot of places in the text, etc.

It's a miracle story, basically. It's not a practical story like say the journey of Lewis and Clark.

So you keep on telling us and telling us and telling us……………………..
Since by your admission this a topic on religion then why are you posting in a science forum?
This thread should also be closed for being off topic.

You and @Neogaia777 are blissfully unaware of contradicting the Biblical archaeologists, the very people who believe Exodus is a non-fiction account and have been digging up the Sinai over the past fifty years to find the evidence.
If the evidence is not there for the various reasons given by the two of you, then why are they pursuing this fruitless exercise?
The irony is while they have not found evidence for the Exodus, their discoveries of sites which pre and post date the Exodus have added to our knowledge base of Sinai’s history.

 

[sjastro]

@sjastro

A Google search and asking the right questions is already providing many, many possibilities to refute your claims, but I'm not going to stop and research every one, or stop to try and refute every single one, but just know that there are always other possibilities to refute your claims.

God Bless.

This is reminiscent of your earlier posts in this thread where you insisted we had to read the paper that only 20K people where involved in the Exodus when you could have briefly summarized the paper.
It comes across as being disingenuous, if all these Google searches refute my posts, it would not raise much sweat for you to provide at least one example.

 

[Halbhh]

Since by your admission this a topic on religion then why are you posting in a science forum?

While science is my main interest and I post a lot of real science, here I'm trying to help those that don't realize what this OP topic really is about.

You and @Neogaia777 are blissfully unaware...

Plz try (and I get it you find this topic frustrating) to avoid even indirect ad hominem (and help me if I fail to do that also by pointing it out).

...of contradicting the Biblical archaeologists, the very people who believe Exodus is a non-fiction account and have been digging up the Sinai over the past fifty years to find the evidence.
If the evidence is not there for the various reasons given by the two of you, then why are they pursuing this fruitless exercise?

I contradict all sorts of people a lot. Even you, who would probably be a good friend if you had been in one of my classes or I'd met you at a lab or such.

I think they aren't really reading enough of the new testament (some may have never) to realize that evidence of miraculous things (such as 30,000 or a lot more people not starving to death in the desert) ought never be found according to the new testament wordings about what faith is that God wants us to come to....

[edit: a paragraph here that would not have offended me might have offended another person, so I removed this paragraph]

 

[Neogaia777]

This is reminiscent of your earlier posts in this thread where you insisted we had to read the paper that only 20K people where involved in the Exodus when you could have briefly summarized the paper.
It comes across as being disingenuous, if all these Google searches refute my posts, it would not raise much sweat for you to provide at least one example.

I've got better things to do right now, but I appreciate everything you post so I can at least find out which points are valid, and which ones are invalid to me, so I can further research and at least get my answers to the ones I consider valid, etc, so I'm grateful for that, but I'm not going to continue arguing on here for right now, or for a little while, as I'm just now downloading FF7 Rebirth, which I have been waiting on/anticipating for a really long time, ever since Remake came out, so I'm going to busy with that now for a while. So no time left now to endlessly argue on here right now, etc.

God Bless.

 

[SelfSim]

I think they aren't really reading enough of the new testament (some may have never) to realize that evidence of miraculous things (such as 30,000 or a lot more people not starving to death in the desert) ought never be found according to the new testament wordings about what faith is that God wants us to come to....

If that is so, then how does that differ in any way from some crook politician saying, (words to the effect of):
"Now don't you go worrying yourself about the facts"??

The issue I've seen running throughout this thread is the absolute refusal to acknowledge that having 'Faith' to accept some story as being 'true history', comes with it, absolute the demand of denying evidence from objective reality.
If that's the case, I'll go with objective reality and the method which distinguishes it every single time and 'Faith can take a hike!'