Continuationism vs Cessationism is it Hard to figure out?

[JohnB445]

Now I would very much like to believe the Holy Spirit gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc are still available to this day.

I am undecided, first I want to throughly consult the scriptures first.

With many Churches being divided on the subject I'm a bit overwhelmed that this will be a never ending study with no clear answer.

Is it easy to figure out?

I believe this is a very important part of doctrine.

 

[Strong in Him]

Now I would very much like to believe the Holy Spirit gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc are still available to this day.

I am undecided, first I want to throughly consult the scriptures first.

With many Churches being divided on the subject I'm a bit overwhelmed that this will be a never ending study with no clear answer.

Is it easy to figure out?

It is for me.
The Holy Spirit is alive, well and active, therefore he still gives gifts to people.

They may not always be recognised. Some people only seem to look for the "big" gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:28 and forget about the others that are mentioned - such as encouragement, service, giving, leadership, showing mercy, (Romans 12:6-8). In the OT, someone was given the gift of craftsmanship so that he could build the tabernacle. David had the gift of music and poetry, Solomon was given wisdom.
My view is that as we are all made in God's image, Genesis 1:26-27, and as everything we have in this world was created through Jesus, John 1:3, all our gifts and talents are from God.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Now I would very much like to believe the Holy Spirit gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc are still available to this day.

I am undecided, first I want to throughly consult the scriptures first.

With many Churches being divided on the subject I'm a bit overwhelmed that this will be a never ending study with no clear answer.

Is it easy to figure out?

I believe this is a very important part of doctrine.

Thanks for sharing. Jesus Christ of Nazareth sent His Comforter to all belivers and with Him came all the gifts that can be imparted either through one individual or several. I do belive the three supernatural gifts that constantly come up in question can be reduced to two, tongues and prophesy because I dont believe a Christian would refuse or not believe a healing intervention by God. So now we are left with tongues which is the least of all gifts and prophetic words which should be discerned according to our faith. The problem I see is the unrestrained and abuse of these gifts. This has caused a group of Christians to refute it and by good reasoning, no discernment. So the fault is not with the Cessationist but with the unbridled Continuist who lacks maturity. Keep in mind these are the very people Jesus Christ of Nazareth never knew so something is amiss and we should find out what that is rather than take it all in stride. Salvation is at stake because one can not harness the Holy Spirit to do their will.

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[Strong in Him]

So now we are left with tongues which is the least of all gifts

The least of all gifts? Really? Have you told the Holy Spirit that you don't think this gift of his is very important?
It seems to me that tongues is speaking directly to, or praising, God in an unknown language. The person can't think about, or stumble over, their words as they don't know what they are saying. Beautiful.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The least of all gifts? Really? Have you told the Holy Spirit that you don't think this gift of his is very important?
It seems to me that tongues is speaking directly to, or praising, God in an unknown language. The person can't think about, or stumble over, their words as they don't know what they are saying. Beautiful.

1 Corinthians 14
You can take your complaint to the Apostel Paul.
Blessings

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Now I would very much like to believe the Holy Spirit gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc are still available to this day.

I am undecided, first I want to throughly consult the scriptures first.

With many Churches being divided on the subject I'm a bit overwhelmed that this will be a never ending study with no clear answer.

Is it easy to figure out?

I believe this is a very important part of doctrine.

One group says it's ceased because proof sign instances resemble witchcraft.

One group says it has not ceased, but do not follow biblical instructions ...

So being undecided is good.

 

[YeshuaFollower]

Now I would very much like to believe the Holy Spirit gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc are still available to this day.

I am undecided, first I want to throughly consult the scriptures first.

With many Churches being divided on the subject I'm a bit overwhelmed that this will be a never ending study with no clear answer.

Is it easy to figure out?

I believe this is a very important part of doctrine.

It is an important part of faith, some people do have gifts that are still available today, where is it written in scriptures that is is not the case?

Blessings,

JFF

 

[bling]

If I had been a first century Jew raised in the truth about the Old Testament, prophets and the coming Messiah, I would have to either see the Miracles myself or have those that I really trust tell me that miracles had been performed. There was OT prophecies concerning the Messiah and the time to come that I had been taught there would be miracles. For the Jews new true prophecy had been accompanied by Godly outwardly visible miracles. For the Jews to have a huge “change” in their doctrine there would have to be miracles to verify that change and there was no bigger change than Gentiles being added to the New Covenant. Most of the other stuff could have been derived from prophecy easily.

For the Jew to “give up” the truth he had been given with the strength of miracles to back that truth (the full acceptance of Gentiles without them being circumcised) there was a need the Jews had that we do not have today for miracles.

Do not get me wrong, I fully know some people have been miraculously “healed”, lives have been saved, and a nuclear bomb has not destroyed New York yet, by pray. I also realize we are not going to “proof” God scientifically without faith. Faith is needed, so we will not have proof God with miracles. The first century Jew believed in the right God, but needed to trust God’s additional revelation.

I believe each Christian has tremendous power available to them (beyond our wildest dreams) to do the “work” through them to change the world. Outward “miraculous signs” would be a hindrance today more than a help. Look at the objective and the method Christ established for us to follow. It does not take much money, education, training, organization or outward obvious miracles.

What we are supposed to be doing is allowing Christ to work through us to guide us as we witness and mentor to a small group (4-12). This small group is to see us in all kinds of situations serving others and serving them. If a person is handy capped you get to Love and serve them and if they heal then you help them in other ways always Loving them. If you can just average one in your group per year becoming like you (which is like Christ) so that person can find and lead a small group like yours, then after 36 years we run out of people on earth (6 billion+) to be in small groups. The problem with this method and the reason we do not do it is because it takes little money (how do you demand a high salary just mentoring 10 people? Where are the huge program, planning years in advance, organization, and human leadership? Where is the fame in this for that charismatic leader, when Christ is really doing all the leading? Who would even know you got it started and yet the world would be changed? Miraculous gifts are not needed for this method; in fact they would bring attention from the masses to the human healer and away from God. This method is not to sway the “masses” but be very personal, one on one in a small group setting, and takes all your time in one way and very little time in another.

Think about what would happen if you could heal like Paul or Jesus. I talked about this with a blind friend. If I healed him He would tell his brail class the next day. All of them would be at my door the second day. Suppose I healed most of them? Over the next week what would happen (radio, TV, huge crowds of people) and what then? People might listen to “me” but I do not speak for God or have something “new” to say. Why are these being healed now, when others are not healed and have not been healed in the past? Why now and why me and how does this help with the objective? Are needy people not needed anymore?

1 Cor. 13: 10 “to telious” is neuter and there are few previous neuter nouns to choose from. 1 Cor 12 does use the neuter noun for “body” so it looks like Paul is talking about when the “perfect (complete/oneness/whole)” body is formed. A parallel concept is talked about by Paul in Eph 4 which suggest the unification of Jewish Christians and Gentile Christians which would really come about after the destruction of Jerusalem. That would also fit the context of 1 Cor. 13 since Paul was talking about that issue in 1 Cor 12.

Today we though us God can do greater things than Jesus did while here on earth, because today through us people can receive the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit. The comforter becomes a better replacement for Christ on earth because the Spirit can be with each individual believer 24/7.

The indwelling Holy Spirit provides what we really want and need. We do not need people to be healed of some temporary physical issue, but the mental anguish that comes with the burden of sin, lack of objective and loss of hope. Needy people are opportunities God is providing for good people to experience, show, give, get, see and receive Godly type Love and we need to grow our Godly type Love though use.

The Garden of Eden was a place that had no physical problems and we can see how louse a place that was for humans to fulfill their objective.

 

[eleos1954]

Now I would very much like to believe the Holy Spirit gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc are still available to this day.

I am undecided, first I want to throughly consult the scriptures first.

With many Churches being divided on the subject I'm a bit overwhelmed that this will be a never ending study with no clear answer.

Is it easy to figure out?

I believe this is a very important part of doctrine.

Now I would very much like to believe the Holy Spirit gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc are still available to this day.

Of course they are ...... healing (many testimonies about miraculous healings), prophecy (yes, but we are also warned about false prophets) How do we know? A claimed prophet Must NEVER contradict His written word in any way, shape or form (what anyone says must be compared to the written Word of God). Tongues ..... when the gift of tongue's was given to the apostles ..... they were KNOW tongues ... existing languages.

Acts 2:8
New International Version
Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

May the Lord lead us all as we study His word. Amen.

 

[Strong in Him]

1 Corinthians 14
You can take your complaint to the Apostel Paul.
Blessings

My complaint is about the way you are reading Scripture and failing to understand the context. Paul would say the same.

There were divisions and problems in the Corinthian church. Some stated that they followed Paul, others Apollos, 1 Corinthians 3:3-4. Some were saying that because Christ had set them free, they were allowed to do anything they wanted, 1 Corinthians 6:12, which included promiscuity. Some were claiming to have special knowledge and were superior to others, 1 Corinthians 8:1-2. Some rushed ahead to eat the Lord's supper without waiting for anyone else - taking what they wanted, 1 Corinthians 11. Paul addressed all of these, and then told them that they were the body of Christ, each with an important part to play, and each being given gifts by the same Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:12-31.
Then he taught that they should desire the best way of all - the way of love, 1 Corinthians 13 - which is not rude, conceited, boastful, envious, and which always protects, perseveres and trusts.
It seems also that some of the Corinthian Christians were even boasting about the gifts that they had - those who spoke in tongues claimed this that was more important than those who gave words of prophecy. Maybe they thought it sounded impressive, or made them more spiritual. Paul addresses this in 1 Cor 14, reminds them that he spoke in tongues more than any of them, and that it was better to prophesy and proclaim God's word to an unbeliever, than to speak in tongues.

This is a long way from say that, of all the gifts that the Spirit gives, tongues is the least important.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

My complaint is about the way you are reading Scripture and failing to understand the context. Paul would say the same.

There were divisions and problems in the Corinthian church. Some stated that they followed Paul, others Apollos, 1 Corinthians 3:3-4. Some were saying that because Christ had set them free, they were allowed to do anything they wanted, 1 Corinthians 6:12, which included promiscuity. Some were claiming to have special knowledge and were superior to others, 1 Corinthians 8:1-2. Some rushed ahead to eat the Lord's supper without waiting for anyone else - taking what they wanted, 1 Corinthians 11. Paul addressed all of these, and then told them that they were the body of Christ, each with an important part to play, and each being given gifts by the same Spirit, 1 Corinthians 12:12-31.
Then he taught that they should desire the best way of all - the way of love, 1 Corinthians 13 - which is not rude, conceited, boastful, envious, and which always protects, perseveres and trusts.
It seems also that some of the Corinthian Christians were even boasting about the gifts that they had - those who spoke in tongues claimed this that was more important than those who gave words of prophecy. Maybe they thought it sounded impressive, or made them more spiritual. Paul addresses this in 1 Cor 14, reminds them that he spoke in tongues more than any of them, and that it was better to prophesy and proclaim God's word to an unbeliever, than to speak in tongues.

This is a long way from say that, of all the gifts that the Spirit gives, tongues is the least important.

I believe you made my point, prophesy over tongues. Thanks for sharing.
Blessings.

 

[Strong in Him]

I believe you made my point, prophesy over tongues. Thanks for sharing.
Blessings.

For the Corinthians maybe.
That doesn't mean that the Bible teaches that tongues is unimportant or the least of the gifts. Could anything that God gives us be unimportant?

 

[Maria Billingsley]

For the Corinthians maybe.
That doesn't mean that the Bible teaches that tongues is unimportant or the least of the gifts. Could anything that God gives us be unimportant?

Unimportant is not the same as least to me. All gifts are for the edification of the Church. It just so happens prophesying is more beneficial for all as Paul indicates.
Blessings.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't believe that cessationism can be adequately defended. Which, I suppose makes me a de-facto continuationist. But I'm also firmly not a Charismaticist. I believe Charismaticism is a modern and mistaken set of ideas about what charisms of the Holy Spirit are.

I would hold that gifts--charisms--have been given in accordance to God's purposes based on time, place, and circumstance. All believers have gifts (charisms), as we remember that even things like service is a charism of the Holy Spirit, so that the little old lady who volunteers to help clean the church every week is filled with the Holy Spirit and has received this precious gift from God the Holy Spirit.

Which is to say, I have no doubt that prophecy, tongues, miracles, etc have been happening over the last two thousand years. But what I don't believe is that these are the things that happen in certain churches which talk about them the most. The "tongues" that goes on in a lot of churches isn't the gift of tongues, the gift of tongues is real but the "tongues" that happens in a lot of modern churches isn't.

I say this as someone who grew up and, for many years, "spoke in tongues". I think that such ecstatic babbling has a far more mundane explanation--and I say "eccstatic babbling" not to be mean or pejorative, but merely descriptive. Glossolalia--tongues--is actual coherent language, actual coherent language that can be translated, either supernaturally by the power of the Spirit or naturally by those who are native speakers. Something that is intrinsically untranslateable and incoherrent can't be a language; that is babbling. It is ecstatic, because it comes from a heightened sense of spiritual or emotional ecstasy. We see this same phenomenon outside of a Christian setting, among ecstatics among some forms of Hinduism and some indigenous folk religions.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[BobRyan]

Now I would very much like to believe the Holy Spirit gifts such as healing, prophecy, tongues, etc are still available to this day.

I am undecided, first I want to throughly consult the scriptures first.

With many Churches being divided on the subject I'm a bit overwhelmed that this will be a never ending study with no clear answer.

Is it easy to figure out?

I believe this is a very important part of doctrine.

Ephesians 4 indicates that it is not at all difficult to figure out.

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of people, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, that is, Christ,

Gifts are given "until" we reach to the fullness that belongs to Christ - and in the mean time "we are to grow up in all aspects into Him".

So then - until the return of Christ they are to be used.

I don't believe that cessationism can be adequately defended. Which, I suppose makes me a de-facto continuationist. But I'm also firmly not a Charismaticist. I believe Charismaticism is a modern and mistaken set of ideas about what charisms of the Holy Spirit are.


-CryptoLutheran

So then we do agree on some things after all