Cessationism vs Continuationism

[Sors]

So I did a search before bringing this up because I suspect it has been talked about plenty on here. Sure enough there are two massive threads in the last year, the John MacArthur possible heretic thread and the 1st Corinthians 13:10 thread seem to have a lot of content about this. I am going to try and work my way through those when I have time but I figured it would be ok to start a new one specifically on this subject since I didn't see anything else asking about this recently.

My pastor this weekend brought up Cessationism vs Continuationism. It was a more of a side note to the sermon, and since he is a Methodist pastor, of course he said that he was a Continuationist. However, while almost all of his sermons rely heavily on what the Bible actually says, his explanation felt a bit more anecdotal this time. Of course I threw away the program after church (I so often regret it, but they do pile up if I don't) so I can't look at the exact scriptures used in the sermon until next Sunday. But I was thinking about it. I have known about these terms and their meaning for a long time. I have always been more partial to Cessationism, but that leaning is the result of my natural skepticism to modern day miracles, speaking in tounges, etc, and not based on anything actually Biblical or based on any adherence to Reformed theology (My beliefs are generally Arminian)

So I have started doing a little bit of research since I really do not understand the subject. I see 1 Corinithians 13:8-12

"8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

It seems to me the biggest argument about this is "10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears." and what this actually means.

It also feels like the Cessationist argument makes a lot of sense when it comes to prophesy and new revelations.

At the same time there is: 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21

"19Do not quench the Spirit. 20Do not despise the words of prophets, 21but test everything; hold fast to what is good;"

So I am not trying to argue for or against. I am predisposed to the Cessationist argument, but that isn't because any Biblical understanding. I am pretty Wesleyan on most other stuff. But I don't know this subject. Is it Biblical to be a partial cessationist when it comes to prophecy and new revelation, but still believe in miracles? How should 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 be interpreted? I am just looking for a more detailed explanation and real Biblical arguments for or against these ideas, rather than relying on what I find on Wikipedia? I am also always happy to read literature that explains the arguments if you know of any good ones.

Thank yall

​

 

[BobRyan]

My pastor this weekend brought up Cessationism vs Continuationism. It was a more of a side note to the sermon, and since he is a Methodist pastor, of course he said that he was a Continuationist. However, while almost all of his sermons rely heavily on what the Bible actually says, his explanation felt a bit more anecdotal this time. Of course I threw away the program after church (I so often regret it, but they do pile up if I don't) so I can't look at the exact scriptures used in the sermon until next Sunday. But I was thinking about it. I have known about these terms and their meaning for a long time.

I have always been more partial to Cessationism, but that leaning is the result of my natural skepticism to modern day miracles, speaking in tounges, etc, and not based on anything actually Biblical or based on any adherence to Reformed theology (My beliefs are generally Arminian)

So I have started doing a little bit of research since I really do not understand the subject. I see 1 Corinithians 13:8-12

"8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known."

1 Cor 13:
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we know in part and prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known.

1 cor 14:
14 Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, exhortation, and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

It seems to me the biggest argument about this is "10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears." and what this actually means.

It also feels like the Cessationist argument makes a lot of sense when it comes to prophesy and new revelations.

That 1 Cor 13 and 1 Cor 14 text is arguing for continuation until the second coming.

1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face;

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

So I am not trying to argue for or against. I am predisposed to the Cessationist argument, but that isn't because any Biblical understanding.

The bible argues against it.

Is it Biblical to be a partial cessationist when it comes to prophecy and new revelation, but still believe in miracles?

I don't think that works from a sola-scriptura POV.

How should 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21 be interpreted? I am just looking for a more detailed explanation and real Biblical arguments for or against these ideas,

1 Thess 5: 19 Do not quench the Spirit, 20 do not utterly reject prophecies,
1 Cor 14: 1Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, exhortation, and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but the one who prophesies edifies the church. 5 Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but rather that you would prophesy; and greater is the one who prophesies than the one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edification.

Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelists, some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Paul continually argues for the gifts being valid - and argues that we need them until the entire Christian church comes up to the measure of the fullness of the stature of Christ - which Paul claims had not happened. In the spiritual dark ages of the world after the first century church leaders had passed away - a great many millions of Christians got killed by fellow Christians. Not exactly "the fullness of the measure of the stature that belongs to Christ" attained by the entire Christian church - if you know what I mean.

1. No scripture says "when the Apostle John stops writing - then prophecy ceases".
2. In both OT and NT there are many examples of prophets who write not one word of scripture - yet they speak from God via the Holy Spirit's gift of prophecy. Don't confuse the closed canon of scripture with the gift of prophecy. As if you can't close the canon if prophecy still exists.

 

[Sors]

Thank you for your wonderful reply

1 Cor 13:
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away with; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away with. 9 For we know in part and prophesy in part; 10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully, just as I also have been fully known.

1 cor 14:
14 Pursue love, yet earnestly desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For the one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for edification, exhortation, and consolation. 4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but the one who prophesies edifies the church.

Ok. I read more into it. And I see in 1 Corinthians 14:6-12 the following:

"6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church."

I think I see your point. Spiritual gifts still exist. Prophecy is one of them? Don't want to put words in your mouth.

That 1 Cor 13 and 1 Cor 14 text is arguing for continuation until the second coming.

I don't see anything that suggests this continues until the second coming. Is this interpretation based on the idea that if spiritual gifts still exist, then 1 Cor 13 has to mean this?

I don't think that works from a sola-scriptura POV.

Ok. In the above you were responding to my question about parital cessationism. Wouldn't reformed also argue that modern day prophecy also doesn't work form a sola scriptura POV?

Paul continually argues for the gifts being valid - and argues that we need them until the entire Christian church comes up to the measure of the fullness of the stature of Christ - which Paul claims had not happened. In the spiritual dark ages of the world after the first century church leaders had passed away - a great many millions of Christians got killed by fellow Christians. Not exactly "the fullness of the measure of the stature that belongs to Christ" attained by the entire Christian church - if you know what I mean.

think you have made a clear Biblical argument that they do still exist. Thank you so much. I would love if somebody from a Reformed perspective could try and rebut. I am not trying to be the kid egging on a fight. Just want to get all perspectives.

Last question is this. I don't see and single instance where prophecy and new revelation has been beneficial. We have non Nicene "branches" of Christianity that aren't even trinitarian. Does this open the door for charlatans? Should these gifts still be practiced?

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for your wonderful reply


Ok. I read more into it. And I see in 1 Corinthians 14:6-12 the following:

"6 Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction? 7 Even in the case of lifeless things that make sounds, such as the pipe or harp, how will anyone know what tune is being played unless there is a distinction in the notes? 8 Again, if the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will get ready for battle? 9 So it is with you. Unless you speak intelligible words with your tongue, how will anyone know what you are saying? You will just be speaking into the air. 10 Undoubtedly there are all sorts of languages in the world, yet none of them is without meaning. 11 If then I do not grasp the meaning of what someone is saying, I am a foreigner to the speaker, and the speaker is a foreigner to me. 12 So it is with you. Since you are eager for gifts of the Spirit, try to excel in those that build up the church."

I think I see your point. Spiritual gifts still exist. Prophecy is one of them?

yes that is correct.

I don't see anything that suggests this continues until the second coming

That is in Eph 4. And also 1 Cor 13 says "now we see in a glass darkly - but then ... face to face" so then only when we see Christ face-to-face will these spiritual gifts end. 1 John 3:4 say that this happens at Christ's appearing

Wouldn't reformed also argue that modern day prophecy also doesn't work form a sola scriptura POV?

Some do argue it that way - but it is not logical.

The doctrine of spiritual gifts as we see it in Eph 4, 1 Cor 12, 1 Cor 14 etc - is biblical - it is from scripture itself.

Those who argue that as long as there is the gift of prophecy you can't test doctrine sola scriptpura - are not reading Acts 17:11 very closely at all. Every case in the Bible (particularly in the New Testament) where the sola scriptura test is made -- it is in reference to existing scripture testing doctrine at the very same time when known saints with the gift of prophecy also exist.

think you have made a clear Biblical argument that they do still exist. Thank you so much.

You are welcomed.

I don't see and single instance where prophecy and new revelation has been beneficial. We have non Nicene "branches" of Christianity that aren't even trinitarian. Does this open the door for charlatans? Should these gifts still be practiced?

1 John 4 says not to just blindly accept anyone that claims the gift of prophecy -

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Acts 17:11 approves of the testing of Paul's doctrine "sola scriptura"

False prophets existed in both the NT and OT - but that did not negate the benefit of true prophets in both OT and NT. That includes the true prophets that wrote scripture as well as prophets that did not write scripture such as those in 1 Cor 14, Aggabus in the book of Acts, Anna in the temple at the time of Christ's birth, Nathan in the OT etc.

 

[Sors]

1 John 4 says not to just blindly accept anyone that claims the gift of prophecy -

1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and now it is already in the world.

Acts 17:11 approves of the testing of Paul's doctrine "sola scriptura"

False prophets existed in both the NT and OT - but that did not negate the benefit of true prophets in both OT and NT. That includes the true prophets that wrote scripture as well as prophets that did not write scripture such as those in 1 Cor 14, Aggabus in the book of Acts, Anna in the temple at the time of Christ's birth, Nathan in the OT etc.

I think the above would be a fun discussion for another topic and another date. I am sure there are plenty of threads already covering it. I still think prophecy and revelation are problematic, but it has been wonderful learning from you.

I want to thank you again for your response. Learned a lot. I know there is some Calvanist around here that wants to give their perspective?

 

[prodigalredeemed]

I have actually been doing a very deep dive into this topic over the last few months, and I ended up writing a pretty detailed response based on my research. You can read the whole thing here if you have a couple hours to read (Have Certain Spiritual Gifts Ceased?), but I will summarize a few main points.

I would consider myself to generally lean more toward the Reformed/Calvinists views on most theological issues. However, I don't agree with cessationism. I would even say some of the mindsets fueling the arguments in favor of cessationism are not really congruent with a right view of Calvinism. In particular, total depravity (which I believe means that man no human by nature would never seek God) and irresistible grace (which I understand as the idea that every act of salvation occurs when the Holy Spirit first over comes mans nature so that he can be saved, and that if God started that work in you, he will complete it). Therefore, I view salvation of every person as an instance of God setting aside the laws of nature and miraculously changing the hearts of fallen men who would otherwise want nothing to do with Him. One of the biggest arguments for cessationists use is to classify certain spiritual gifts (tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, words of knowledge) as "miracles that break the laws of nature". So, in my mind, someone who thinks it requires a nature breaking working of the Holy Spirit for a man to be saved should have a hard time reconciling that with the idea that God doesn't break the laws of nature anymore now that the scriptures are written.

With the sole exception of writing scripture, I believe all spiritual gifts that were available to the to the early church are available to us today and are dispensed wherever and whenever the Holy Spirit sees fit to dispense them for the purpose of edifying the body of christ and expanding His kingdom.

The most important thing that I would like to point out on this topic is this: Both sides of this debate have plausible arguments. While I believe the Biblical evidence for continuation is more compelling, I can see how a person could also find the opposing view compelling. Particularly if they have never experienced a true, disciplined exercising of these gifts. However, we should keep in mind Colossians 2. We should not let plausible arguments we believe about the parts of scripture that are not explicitly clear to cause us to ignore the parts of the bible that are clear. In this case, 1 Corinthians 14 gives very detailed and clear instructions on how to use these gifts in the context of a church gathering. Many cessationists church leaders will forbid the exercising of tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophecy, and words of knowledge in their church gatherings because they believe those commands "don't apply to us anymore". The Bible makes it pretty clear that we should not put our own human understanding above the clear commands of scripture. I think even if you don't believe in these gifts for today, the best way to handle it when someone claims to exercise any of these gifts during a prayer meeting is to implement the discipline found in 1 Cor 14.

 

[prodigalredeemed]

I also should add that many continuationists have a tendency to go to the other extreme of overemphasizing or being undisciplined in their excersizing of these gifts. That too is disobedient to clear parts of scripture.

 

[ARBITER01]

It seems to me the biggest argument about this is "10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears." and what this actually means.

We are in the church age. At some point this will end and The Lord will come back for His bride. That is when we will receive our glorified bodies that we need,.... then everything is complete, and the gifts needed down here will be done away with.

 

[Yekcidmij]

I also should add that many continuationists have a tendency to go to the other extreme of overemphasizing or being undisciplined in their excersizing of these gifts. That too is disobedient to clear parts of scripture.

That's been my experience. In my experience, too many continuationists seem to want a theological license for disorder, chaos, incoherence, and performative ritual.

That aside, God can do what he wants. I suppose that would make me some sort of continuationist in the most technical sense possible. But I also think most actual expressions, at least so far as I've seen, of continuationism are nonsense and so I would probably be a cessationist by most people for all practical purposes.

 

[ARBITER01]

I also should add that many continuationists have a tendency to go to the other extreme of overemphasizing or being undisciplined in their excersizing of these gifts. That too is disobedient to clear parts of scripture.

That's been my experience. In my experience, too many continuationists seem to want a theological license for disorder, chaos, incoherence, and performative ritual.

That aside, God can do what he wants. I suppose that would make me some sort of continuationist in the most technical sense possible. But I also think most actual expressions, at least so far as I've seen, of continuationism are nonsense and so I would probably be a cessationist by most people for all practical purposes.

Actually. both of you are correct.

Some people never learn how to have self control in their operations of the gifts. They normally pick up bad habits from others also.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

1 Corinithians 13:8-12

Inspiration is finished, no more scripture will be written.

Private revelations may still happen, visions, apparitions and such, but because they are private, they are not binding on others. The traditional Pentecostal "nine gifts of the holy Spirit" seems a little fanciful - people working miracles, healings and so forth, also speaking as prophets, these seem too close the gifts that lead to inspired scripture to be lightly claimed today.