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Featured Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by DavidPT, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
    35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
    36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    The first thing to do is consider verse 34 and 36, and from those verses compare the following to the following in 1 Thessalonians 5.

    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)----Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night(1 Thessalonians 5:6-7)

    Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man(Luke 21:36)----For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:9).


    And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)-----For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief(1 Thessalonians 5:2-4).

    It should be plainly obvious thusfar, the day of the Lord is in focus in the passage above from Luke 21.

    In that same context we are told the following---Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

    Consider this now, which further proves the context involves the day of the Lord. Compare the following in Luke 21 with that of the following in 2 Peter 3.

    Heaven and earth shall pass away(Luke 21:33)----But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10).


    It's undeniable at this point, the passage above in Luke 21 concerns the day of the Lord. We now have to consider verse 32----This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. And that clearly means this generation can't pass away before the day of the Lord.

    Below is further proof that Luke 21:32 is not meaning the first century.

    Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
    26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    Matthew 24 and Revelation 11:2 places Luke 21:24 during the time of the great trib. Matthew 24 places Luke 21:25-26 after the time of the great trib. That means in Luke 21, verse 35, that is not meaning during the GT, but is meaning after the GT. It is meaning during Matthew 24:29, IOW during the 6th seal.

    The day of the Lord is not during the great trib, like Pretribbers typically like to conclude, it is after the great trib. And since Luke 21:32 indicates this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled, that obviously includes the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Only Preterists might argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled. Pretty much everyone else though, wouldn't dare make a ludicrous claim like that.

    In Luke 21:32, 'all' is meaning 'all', and it is not meaning 'some' instead. Clearly, and obviously at that, not everything Jesus predicted in the Discourse was fulfilled by 70 AD. That obviously means this generation is still yet to pass, and not that it already has. That would contradict the following if that were true---till all things be fulfilled.
     
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  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I place "this generation" at the beginning of the end. It pans out in Matthew 24, Luke's and Mark's chronologies when spliced together.
     
  3. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    What exactly does that mean though? Maybe I even agree with you, but until I know for certain exactly what you are meaning here, I don't know if I agree with you or not.
     
  4. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jewish Great Tribulation: AD 70
    ““Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),” (Matthew 24:15) (NASB95)

    ““For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.” (Matthew 24:21) (NASB95)

    New Covenant era: Christian tribulation until the end
    ““Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:23) (NASB95)

    Days leading up to the end:
    ““But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29) (NASB95)

    ““Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” (Matthew 24:34–36) (NASB95)
     
  5. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    The main thing I disagree with here, is that you place the AOD with that of the events of 70 AD. But you do seem to place this generation passing where I tend to place it. We are in agreement there at least. The main reason I disagree that the AOD involved 70 AD is because it is during the AOD that the GT occurs. According to Mathew 24:29, the text indicates the following---But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

    None of those things occurred immediately after 70 AD. And if Mathew 24:29 is meaning at the end of this age, and that the trib of those days are meaning during 70 AD, 2000 plus years later is hardly immediately after.

    For example.

    A---John turned 42. Immediately after John turned 42 he started working out for 6 months straight.

    B---John turned 42. Immediately after John turned 42 he turned 67.


    Your interpretation agrees with B rather than A. And as can be seen, B is nonsensical.
     
  6. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I think there are two tribulations. The Jewish of 70 AD. Jesus told the disciples when you (2nd person plural) meaning them personally, see the AoD, standing in the Holy place, surrounded by armies (Luke), flee.

    Then the centuries of Christian tribulation follow culminating in the end. The generation then seeing the signs of the end with experience the end.
     
  7. JIMINZ

    JIMINZ Well-Known Member

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    This then is the Generation which will see everything come to pass..and why.

    Mat_11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
    Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    Mat_23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
    Mat_24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    Mar_8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
    Mar_13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
    Luk_7:31 And the Lord said, Whereunto then shall I liken the men of this generation? and to what are they like?
    Luk_11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
    Luk_11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
    Luk_11:32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
    Luk_11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
    Luk_11:51 From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.
    Luk_17:25 But first must he suffer many things, and be rejected of this generation.
    Luk_21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
     
  8. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Does this mean you conclude the timing of Luke 21:32 is the first century then? And if yes that would also indicate you conclude all things have been fulfilled, that Jesus predicted in the Discourse.

    Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

    The events recorded in Luke 21:24-26 are among the events that have to be fulfilled before this generation passes away. Anyone that might argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled, I have a hard time taking an argument like that seriously. Then there is verse 25 and 26 on top of that. I don't see that fitting anything that has already been fulfilled in the generation Jesus was speaking to at the time.
     
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Since Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, all physical Jews became gentiles by default. So they are among the gentiles trampling down Jerusalem until the end of the world. Jesus tells us to preach to all nations (gentiles) until the end.
     
  10. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    There was an Amil I used to debate on another board some years back. He concluded the exact same thing. He never managed to convince me he was correct, nor did I ever manage to convince him he was wrong. The trib of those days mentioned in Matthew 24:29 has to have a nearest antecedent. That can only be referring to the one mentioned in Matthew 24:21.
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    But, the audience being 2nd person plural = those who would see the Aod.
     
  12. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    This might be something else we might be on the same page about as well. The Jerusalem meant in Luke 21:24, I don't take that to be meaning in the literal sense myself. Is that your take as well? Or do you think it is meaning the literal city in the middle east literally being trampled down by the Gentiles? And if the times of the Gentiles involves a few thousand years, I don't see it making sense Jerusalem would be meaning literal in that case.

    BTW, I don't know whether you are right or not when you said the following----"Since Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, all physical Jews became gentiles by default". I haven't really thought about that before, so I don't have an opinion one way or the other at this point.
     
  13. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is one of the most important doctrines in the bible. Circumcision making one a Jew and not birth. It's a game changer of huge proportions.
     
  14. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    I was mainly meaning in regards to this part----"all physical Jews became gentiles by default". Why do they need to become Gentiles? Maybe you are meaning this in a way that is not clear to me at this point? And once I understand what you are meaning, maybe then it will start making sense to me, and maybe I might even end up agreeing with you for all I know.
     
  15. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Jews are born gentiles according to scripture. And became Jews and members of Israel thorough circumcision. When Christ abolished circumcision, they became gentiles.

    Here's a study I posted earlier.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  16. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    :scratch: - so who is "this generation" then, if not the 1st century church (to whom these passages were written)?

    Maybe the adjustment needs to be made in how you understand "the day of the LORD"?

    Look back at 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (a passage you brought up):

    "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT."

    1 Thessalonians 5:1-5

    5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a THIEF IN THE NIGHT. 3 For when THEY say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon THEM, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And THEY shall not escape. 4 But YOU, BRETHREN, are NOT IN DARKNESS, so that this Day SHOULD OVERTAKE YOU AS A THIEF. 5 YOU are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
    quoting Chuck Crisco - WHO ARE "THEY" AND WHO ARE "YOU"?

    That's an important question if you want to understand this passage. In interpretation it is called "audience relevance". It reminds us that this letter wasn't written TO you and I. It was written to the Thessalonians dealing with the persecution that THEY were experiencing and the solution that was coming soon in their lifetime.

    So who are "they"? He identifies them very clearly in 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16:

    14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God which are in Judea in Christ Jesus. For you also suffered the same things from your own countrymen, just as they did from the Judeans, 15 who killed both the Lord Jesus and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they do not please God and are contrary to all men, 16 forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved, so as always to fill up the measure of their sins; but wrath has come upon them to the uttermost.

    The same unbelieving Jewish system that fostered persecution in Judea, were doing the same to the Thessalonians. In case you are uncertain, notice Acts 17:

    1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a synagogue of the JEWS. 2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead, and saying, “This Jesus whom I preach to you is the Christ.” 4 And some of them were persuaded; and a great multitude of the devout Greeks, and not a few of the leading women, joined Paul and Silas.

    5 But the JEWS who were not persuaded, becoming envious, took some of the evil men from the marketplace, and GATHERING A MOB, set all the city in an uproar and ATTACKED the house of Jason, and sought to bring them out to the people.

    So it was these Jews that were persecuting the saints in Thessalonica. It was to these unbelieving Jews that the Day of the Lord was coming like a thief in the night. Paul picks up this theme again in 2 Thessalonians 1:3-8. It is the same judgment that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 23:31-36.

    CONCLUSION:

    The "thief in the night" is not about a rapture that might occur in our lifetime at any moment. Rather it is an event that happened 2000 years ago in Jerusalem. Context is king in the realm of interpretation.
    ~ Spiritual Myth-Busters: As a Thief in the Night?




     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
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  17. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    More about the Day of the LORD that was going to come upon the UNbelieving Jews as a thief in the night. This goes back to the days when Jesus cleansed the Temple:

    ------>There were two separate cleansings of the Temple, and there is a better explanation for them. What lies behind these separate instances is Jesus fulfilling the role of the High Priest visiting and inspecting the touch of affliction/corruption in the house. This is described in Leviticus 14:33–53. It accounts for the multiple visitations and the repeated act of removing the corruption, then finally pronouncing the house (temple) unclean and decreeing the total destruction of the house. ~ Jerusalem's 'time of visitation' (Luke 19:45-46)
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  18. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    And "the times of the Gentiles"? That's distinct (I believe) from the "FULLNESS of the Gentiles" that was mentioned in Romans 11:25.

    From Ed Stevens:
    Luke 21:20 says “when you see.” Jesus is talking to His contemporary disciples, not to
    some generation thousands of years into the future.

    Luke 21:22 – Jesus is talking about a whole complex of events which had been
    predicted in the Old Testament, “all” of which (including the “trampling” and the
    “times of the Gentiles”) would be “fulfilled” during those “days of vengeance” which
    His contemporary disciples would “see” in their lifetime.

    Nebuchadnezzar did not conquer Jerusalem in one day. He had to besiege the city for a
    similar amount of time as the Romans did later. This was about three and a half years, from the
    time the war began under Vespasian (AD 67) until Titus breached the walls and burned the
    temple (AD 70).

    The “appointed time” and “trodden” ideas here in Lam. 1:15 are very similar to the
    “times of the Gentiles” and “trampling” ideas we saw in Luke 21:24. We find those same two
    ideas again in Rev. 11:2, except there the “appointed time” or “times of the Gentiles” appears as
    a three and a half year period or “forty-two months”:

    • Rev. 11:2 Leave out the court which is outside the temple and do not measure it, for it
    has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two
    months.

    So, there is a lot of similarity here between Lam. 1:15, Luke 21:24, and Rev. 11:2. All
    three texts have all four of these same elements (Gentiles, Time, Jerusalem, Treading).
    Lamentations uses those four elements in reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in 586 BC.
    Revelation 11:2 mentions the same four things in connection with the downfall of Babylon the
    harlot city. In both of those texts, the meaning is clear: the trampling was an event that lasted
    only three and a half years. When the Gentile armies were through destroying, the trampling was
    finished. The times of the Gentile trampling did not refer to millenniums of desolation
    afterwards. ~ Until the Times of the Gentiles is Fulfilled-- Future or Fulfilled? Guest Article
     
  19. mkgal1

    mkgal1 His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33 Supporter

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    ....and more on "the times of the Gentiles":


    Quoting Reigning Life blog: The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of "the time of the end" is said to be "the scattering of the power of the holy people", which we are told would be accomplished during "a time, times, and a half", or forty two months.

    The significance of the phrase “times of the Gentiles” is strongly connected to the nature of the Old covenant explaining why vengeance was poured out upon that generation. The law of Moses was structured with both blessings and curses; blessing for obedience, curses for disobedience. If Israel was obedient, God promised thou would “lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow. And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath.” (Deut. 28:12, 13)


    But if they were disobedient the opposite would obtain:

    “The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away…Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee. And the Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shall not understand; a nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young: and he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.” (Deut. 28:25, 26; 48-51)

    Leviticus also gives us background understanding about why Israel would be visited with plagues, vials and judgment as mentioned in the book of Revelation

    “And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.” (Lev. 26:23-25; emphasis MINE, 21, 28)

    ~ Reigning through Grace: UNDERSTANDING THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES

    All the events of this chapter (in Luke) fall within the time parameters of verse 32, as Jesus is warning them of when these things would be near.

    “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.” (Luke 21:32[​IMG]).
    Therefore, the times of the Gentiles and treading trampling under foot of Jerusalem reaches it conclusion in A.D. 70, within the generation then living at the time of the Christ, i.e. the first century. ~ End Times Road Signs: When Were the Times of the Gentiles Fulfilled? | Eschatology - AllThingsFulfilled.Com
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2018
  20. DavidPT

    DavidPT Well-Known Member

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    Since the day of the Lord also involves 2 Peter 3, I guess this means the following should be interpreted to mean this then.

    2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
    4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming in judgment against the Jews? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
    5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
    6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
    7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the Jews.
    8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
    10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
     
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