Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

[DavidPT]

....and more on "the times of the Gentiles":

Quoting Reigning Life blog: The times of the Gentiles, or treading down of Jerusalem, entailed no more than a forty two month period of time, the exact duration of the Jewish-Roman War. This is in perfect harmony with Daniel 12:7, where the defining characteristic of "the time of the end" is said to be "the scattering of the power of the holy people", which we are told would be accomplished during "a time, times, and a half", or forty two months.

The significance of the phrase “times of the Gentiles” is strongly connected to the nature of the Old covenant explaining why vengeance was poured out upon that generation. The law of Moses was structured with both blessings and curses; blessing for obedience, curses for disobedience. If Israel was obedient, God promised thou would “lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow. And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath.” (Deut. 28:12, 13)

But if they were disobedient the opposite would obtain:

“The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away…Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee. And the Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shall not understand; a nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young: and he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.” (Deut. 28:25, 26; 48-51)

Leviticus also gives us background understanding about why Israel would be visited with plagues, vials and judgment as mentioned in the book of Revelation

“And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of my covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.” (Lev. 26:23-25; emphasis MINE, 21, 28)

~ Reigning through Grace: UNDERSTANDING THE TIMES OF THE GENTILES

All the events of this chapter (in Luke) fall within the time parameters of verse 32, as Jesus is warning them of when these things would be near.

“Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place.” (Luke 21:32 ).
​

Therefore, the times of the Gentiles and treading trampling under foot of Jerusalem reaches it conclusion in A.D. 70, within the generation then living at the time of the Christ, i.e. the first century. ~ End Times Road Signs: When Were the Times of the Gentiles Fulfilled? | Eschatology - AllThingsFulfilled.Com​

The trampling of Jerusalem is not meaning in a literal sense against a literal city in the middle east. The text indicates the trampling continues after they have already been led away captive into all nations. That would be meaning after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and not before the destruction.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations---equals this----and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Luke 21:23-36 is also shown in Revelation 6:17 and Revelation 14:14
[What good is it to bring up the Olivet Discourse and not include the book of Revelation ]

"THIS GENERATION" in Bible

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.
27 ‘And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in a cloud, with power and much glory;
36 watch ye, then, in every season, praying that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that are about to come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.’

Revelation 14:14
And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting,
having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

Revelation 6:17
“For the great day of His wrath has come,
and who is able to stand?”

I agree with this post and it concerning 70ad.........[as I do with the book of Revelation]

Jewish Great Tribulation: AD 70
““Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),” (Matthew 24:15) (NASB95)

““For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.” (Matthew 24:21) (NASB95)

New Covenant era: Christian tribulation until the end
““Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:23) (NASB95)

Days leading up to the end:
““But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29) (NASB95)

““Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” (Matthew 24:34–36) (NASB95)

.

 

[DavidPT]

Revelation 14:14[/SIZE]
And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting,
having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

[/B]?”

Is this implying that this is meaning Jesus?

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

All of these are meaning angels.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Son of man is calling the shots here. He is telling the angels what to do. In Revelation 14 it is angels telling the one like unto the Son of man, what to do. The fact that angel came out of the temple in order to tell the one like unto the Son of man, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, obviously he got his orders from someone higher up inside the temple. Likely meaning from Christ in this case.

Clearly the Son of man in Matthew 13:41 is meaning Jesus, and that He is sending forth His angels to reap the earth. And that is exactly what the two angels with the sickles in Revelation 14 are doing, reaping the earth.


BTW, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, isn't that a simile?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Is this implying that this is meaning Jesus?

Revelation 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

All of these are meaning angels.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

The Son of man is calling the shots here. He is telling the angels what to do. In Revelation 14 it is angels telling the one like unto the Son of man, what to do. The fact that angel came out of the temple in order to tell the one like unto the Son of man, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap, obviously he got his orders from someone higher up inside the temple. Likely meaning from Christ in this case.

Clearly the Son of man in Matthew 13:41 is meaning Jesus, and that He is sending forth His angels to reap the earth. And that is exactly what the two angels with the sickles in Revelation 14 are doing, reaping the earth.


BTW, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, isn't that a simile?

I am beginning to think so. I am just now looking at the phrase "son of man" in the Bible.

Except for 14 verses in 6 books, it is almost exclusively used in Ezekiel and the word for man used is "adam". Ezekiel is almost exclusively about Israel and Judah and their judgements/rewards from what I have seen.

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
"son of man" occurs 194 times in 190 verses

Eze 2:1
1 And He said to me, “Son of adam<120>, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.”
3 And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.

Now this is interesting. In Dan 7 it shows "son of mortal/man"

Dan 7:13
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of mortal<606>,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.

In Dan 8 it shows "son of adam".

Dan 8:17
So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of adam<120>, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

That phrase is only used in 4 verses outside of the Gospels, 1 each in Acts and Hebrews and 2 verses of Revelation.

Even the Jews had to ask who/what is the Son of Man

John 12:34
The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can Thou say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up'?
Who is this Son of Man?”

1st times used in the 4 Gospels:

Mat 8:20
And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

Mar 2:10
“But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic,

Luk 5:24
“But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

John 1:51
And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter[fn] you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

It is not used anywhere in Paul's epistles...

1 each in Acts and Hebrews:

Acts 7:56
and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

Heb 2:6
But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
[Psalms 8:4]

And 2 times in Revelation:

Rev 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

This event sounds eerily similar to the events in Daniel where Michael and Gabriel are talking to each other then to Daniel

Rev 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle! and reap! for the time is come for thee to reap!; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Both Michael and Gabriel are mentioned in the NT:

Daniel 8:16
And I heard a Man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
Daniel 9:21
yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the Man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
Daniel 10:
5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold! a Man clothed in linen,
with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.
13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days.
Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help Me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.



.

 

[mkgal1]

The trampling of Jerusalem is not meaning in a literal sense against a literal city in the middle east.

I disagree - we have the historical evidence that the Temple system/Jerusalem were destroyed, and so much of what the plot of the whole Bible speaks of (the way those of us that believe in covenant theology see it) is fulfilled in that context.

The text indicates the trampling continues after they have already been led away captive into all nations. That would be meaning after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and not before the destruction.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This---And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations---equals this----and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

That's not how I understand it (that the trampling is before the destruction).

The war in Jerusalem was 3.5 years. Within that period of time is the "time of the Gentiles" being fulfilled.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

DavidPT said: ↑
The trampling of Jerusalem is not meaning in a literal sense against a literal city in the middle east.

Tell that to the over 1 million Jews who perished in the destruction of that Temple and City in 70ad......

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Luke 21:24
“And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.
And Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Revelation 11:
1 And was given to me a reed like-as rod saying "rouse! and measure! the Sanctuary of the God and the Altar[Golden Altar] and those worshiping in it
2 and the Court/fold<833, without of the Sanctuary, be casting-out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations and the holy City they shall be treading<3961> forty two months.

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints

https://www.preteristarchive.com/~preteris/JewishWars/index.html
Was Flavius Josephus familiar with the Apocalypse of John?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]

Deuteronomy 28:
15 If, however, you do not obey Yahweh thy Elohim by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today,
all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

67 In the morning you will say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and in the evening you will say, ‘If only it were morning!’—because of the dread in your hearts of the terrifying sights you will see.
68 “And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”




.

 

[mkgal1]

Since the day of the Lord also involves 2 Peter 3, I guess this means the following should be interpreted to mean this then.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming in judgment against the Jews? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

I just first wanted to point out that there wasn't just one group of Jewish people (remember....the early church BEGAN with the Jews). It was only judgment against the unbelieving Jews (according to OC law).

Not only that, but this wasn't ONLY judgment against the unbelieving people - it was also their salvation (with the passing away of the Old Covenant/Temple system - Hebrews 8:13).


This sort of pulls apart another topic - the topic of salvation. What I see now is that salvation was a *process* in the first century.

Quoting Dan Dery:

It turns out that this process of salvation was a two-edged sword if you will. On one edge, it was salvation from the eschatological (last days) wrath of God which the Old Testament prophets said would come upon the nation of Israel in their last days if they would not repent. Take a look…​

Deuteronomy 32:29-43
If they were wise, they would understand this, they would discern their latter end…. Is not this laid up in store with me, sealed up in my treasuries? Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly. For the Lord will vindicate his people and have compassion on his servants, when he sees that their power is gone, and there is none remaining, bond or free…. For I lift up my hand to heaven, and swear, as I live for ever, if I whet my glittering sword, and my hand takes hold on judgment, I will take vengeance on my adversaries, and will repay those who hate me…. Praise his people, O you nations; for he avenges the blood of his servants, and takes vengeance on his adversaries, and makes expiation for the land of his people.

Malachi 3:1, 4:1-5
Behold, I send my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple….4:1 For behold, the day comes, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch… And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts… Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.​

But on the other edge, it was the eschatological (last days) salvation of the righteous remnant of Israel of all ages (and the grafted in gentiles) who had now been liberated from sin and death through the sacrifice of Christ. This was also foretold by the prophets.

Isaiah 25:8-9​

He will swallow up death for ever, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of his people he will take away from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken. It will be said on that day, “Lo, this is our God; we have waited for him, that he might save us. This is the Lord; we have waited for him; let us be glad and rejoice in his salvation.”

Isaiah 35:4
Say to those who are of a fearful heart, “Be strong, fear not! Behold, your God will come with vengeance, with the recompense of God. He will come and save you.”

What this means is that the salvation from wrath and for redemption which the saints were eagerly anticipating in the New Testament, was the fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy which was to occur in Israel’s last days, at the end of her Old Covenant age in AD70. What this also means is that the “unsaved” (unfaithful) would not be saved from wrath, they would experience it.

Notice that in Isaiah 35:4, the coming of the Lord is both in vengeance (wrath) and in salvation (redemption). What this means is that both wrath and salvation would come to Israel at the same time, meaning through the same event. And according to both Old and New Testaments, that same-time-event was the coming of the Lord (See Isaiah 25, 35, Hebrews 9:27-28, 2 Thessalonians 1:4-10, Romans 2:5-10).

As a matter of fact, the coming of the Lord in salvation (to avenge and vindicate the persecution of his saints) and His coming in wrath (to judge and destroy those persecutors) was a prominent Old Testament theme which Jesus continued to teach throughout his ministry (Mathew 21-22 and their parallel texts), as did his disciples (2 Thessalonians 1:4-10).

Therefore, since the salvation of Israel and the judgment of Israel would both occur at the coming of the Lord, if we can identify the time of Israel’s judgment, we will by implication identify the time of Israel’s salvation and the coming of the Lord. ~ Dan Dery​

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of the Jews.

Like I mentioned earlier - one can't change the text to ignore the fact that there were BELIEVING Jews or else we wouldn't have a church today. The first century church began with the Jews. The biblical text needs to remain as:

"destruction of the ungodly." ​

 

[DavidPT]

I am beginning to think so. I am just now looking at the phrase "son of man" in the Bible.

Except for 14 verses in 6 books, it is almost exclusively used in Ezekiel and the word for man used is "adam". Ezekiel is almost exclusively about Israel and Judah and their judgements/rewards from what I have seen.

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
"son of man" occurs 194 times in 190 verses

Eze 2:1
1 And He said to me, “Son of adam<120>, stand on your feet, and I will speak to you.”
3 And He said to me: “Son of man, I am sending you to the children of Israel, to a rebellious nation that has rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me to this very day.

Now this is interesting. In Dan 7 it shows "son of mortal/man"

Dan 7:13
“I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of mortal<606>,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.

In Dan 8 it shows "son of adam".

Dan 8:17
So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of adam<120>, that the vision refers to the time of the end.”

That phrase is only used in 4 verses outside of the Gospels, 1 each in Acts and Hebrews and 2 verses of Revelation.

Even the Jews had to ask who/what is the Son of Man

John 12:34
The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains forever; and how can Thou say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up'?
Who is this Son of Man?”

1st times used in the 4 Gospels:

Mat 8:20
And Jesus said to him, “Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.”

Mar 2:10
“But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the paralytic,

Luk 5:24
“But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.”

John 1:51
And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter[fn] you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.”

It is not used anywhere in Paul's epistles...

1 each in Acts and Hebrews:

Acts 7:56
and said, “Look! I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

Heb 2:6
But one testified in a certain place, saying:
“What is man that You are mindful of him,
Or the son of man that You take care of him?
[Psalms 8:4]

And 2 times in Revelation:

Rev 1:13
and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

This event sounds eerily similar to the events in Daniel where Michael and Gabriel are talking to each other then to Daniel

Rev 14:
14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another Messenger came out of the Sanctuary, crying with a loud voice to Him that sat on the cloud, thrust in thy sickle! and reap! for the time is come for thee to reap!; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

Both Michael and Gabriel are mentioned in the NT:

Daniel 8:16
And I heard a Man's voice between the banks of the Ulai, who called, and said, “Gabriel, make this man understand the vision.”
Daniel 9:21
yes, while I was speaking in prayer, the Man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, reached me about the time of the evening offering.
Daniel 10:
5 I lifted up my eyes and looked, and behold! a Man clothed in linen,
with a belt of fine gold from Uphaz around his waist. 6 His body was like beryl, his face like the appearance of lightning, his eyes like flaming torches, his arms and legs like the gleam of burnished bronze, and the sound of his words like the sound of a multitude.
13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days.
Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help Me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.



.

My only dispute in this case is primarily with that of Revelation 14 and one like unto the Son of man in that chapter.

So why would Jesus be seen as being among those that reap the earth when the following clearly indicates otherwise? It seems to me if Jesus is among these, that makes Him an angel then.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Jesus is the speaker here. I don't see where He indicated that He and the angels are the reapers.


Maybe in general, my entire approach is all wrong? I try my best to interpret things in such a way that there are no obvious contradictions. Others at times give the impression contradictions are irrelevant. I don't understand how something contradictory could actually be the truth though. Granted, sometimes things only seem contradictory when in reality they are really not. But in this case how can Matthew 13:39 mean anything other than it plainly says----the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels? Thus making the two beings seen is Revelation 14 with sickles, angels.

 

[DavidPT]

Tell that to the over 1 million Jews who perished in the destruction of that Temple and City in 70ad......

But that misses the point. Jerusalem is still being trodden down after it's destruction in 70 AD. Therefore it makes no sense to take Jerusalem in the literal sense in that case. The times of the Gentiles have not been fulfilled as of yet, though I realize some disagree. But if I am correct here, that means Jerusalem is still being trodden down after it's destruction in 70 AD.

 

[The Times]

The first thing to do is consider verse 34 and 36, and from those verses compare the following to the following in 1 Thessalonians 5.

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)----Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night(1 Thessalonians 5:6-7)

The language is one to comfort the flock. Sleep means death, night means to surprise and drunk means complacency. The languge reported is solely to believers and is not to unbelievers.

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)-----For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief(1 Thessalonians 5:2-4).

Lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting is highly indicative that the language is solely addressing believers and so the terms sleep, night, drunkenness discussed above concerns the believers as to the question of keeping the faith.

surfeiting meaning overindulgence is used to demonstrate what the heart should not do when it comes to believers and the recipients are solely the believers.

It should be plainly obvious thusfar, the day of the Lord is in focus in the passage above from Luke 21.

In that same context we are told the following---Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Consider this now, which further proves the context involves the day of the Lord. Compare the following in Luke 21 with that of the following in 2 Peter 3.

Heaven and earth shall pass away(Luke 21:33)----But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10).

If you carefully read 2 Peter 3:10 in the light that the matter concerns the believers then we establish a few important key things and they are -

Days of Noah pointing to the Flood as a literal event that destroyed suddenly and it was directly authored by God and not man. Compare the verses below to Malachi 4:1 where the present heaven and earth are also destroyed by God in like manner and their destruction owing to the judgement come is directly authored by God. In both contrasting cases, God is the author and man is not the instrument of God's anger as man is the one that is being judged by God and not man.

By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

The works done on the earth by all created beings will be laid bare, meaning that the normality of continuing life as it was is all gone. Malachi 4 explains that evil cannot continue after the Day of the Lord, which is a Day of Vengeance upon all of humanity by the direct hand of God and that “Not a root or a branch will be left to them" meaning that the works done on the earth by all created beings will be laid bare and that evil, war and other atrocities on earth will cease to continue after the Day of the Lord.

The verses below are unique to Malachi 4:1.

10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.

Notice Peter uses the literal destruction of the physical elements in contrast to the elements of the Days of Noah. In Noah's time, God used the element of water to destroy humanity. In the final destruction of humanity to lay the earth bare of the works of men, God uses the element of fire, that is a cosmic/solar event that results in an Extinction Level Event (ELE). Peter is speaking of an ELE. Peter also references Paul concerning the looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth. The verses below have context of believers looking forward to the afterlife, where evil no longer plays its part and so the looking forward to after the fact has to be the afterlife, since all of man's works on earth will be laid bare and cannot continue, because earth and human life is extinguished by the Extinction Level Event. It, therefore, cannot be the case where the faithful who keep their faith are looking within this temporal life to an alleged judgement event of 70AD that has them punished by man within the context of war, running away from their home and leaving everything behind and by starting over again in nomads land in exile which is no fun or looking forward to at all.

At least consider that those verses below, the underlined in particular is looking forward after the fact.

That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

It's undeniable at this point, the passage above in Luke 21 concerns the day of the Lord. We now have to consider verse 32----This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. And that clearly means this generation can't pass away before the day of the Lord.

Generation is a loose word, it could be applied to mean the generation after the Cross as compared to to the generation before the Cross, since Jesus spoke those words before the Cross, one would understand that he is speaking of two groups of people before and after the Cross. Generation is not in context to time, but in context to two testament peoples owing to the Old Covenant Fig tree generation and the New Covenant Fig Tree generation.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

This is still not the day of the Lord but only a precursor that eventually leads to the Day, only after the Gentiles who are required to be born, receive Christ in their hearts come to full account within the context of the Book of Life when Christ comes to open it and unveil all who are ever going to be written in the Book of Life, meaning after the Day of the Lord at his coming there are no more faithful being accoutned for in the Book, hence the end of the harvest!

Matthew 24 and Revelation 11:2 places Luke 21:24 during the time of the great trib. Matthew 24 places Luke 21:25-26 after the time of the great trib. That means in Luke 21, verse 35, that is not meaning during the GT, but is meaning after the GT. It is meaning during Matthew 24:29, IOW during the 6th seal.

Yes after the Great Tribulation which encompasses those in Revelation 7 who wear white and carry palm branches in their hands and have made their garments white by the blood of the lamb and this would encompass the entire New Covenant Generation from the Cross until Christ's coming when he unveils the Book of Life and reveales al throughout the New Testament Age harvest who have come to full numbers within the Book and therefore the entire New Testament Age is the Great Tribulation for the Church and the body of Christ who are made up of Gentiles and who will one day come to full numbers according to the Book of Life before it is unveiled at Christ's coming after the Day of the Lord when he shall lay the works on earth by men as bare.

The day of the Lord is not during the great trib, like Pretribbers typically like to conclude, it is after the great trib. And since Luke 21:32 indicates this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled, that obviously includes the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Only Preterists might argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled. Pretty much everyone else though, wouldn't dare make a ludicrous claim like that.

In Luke 21:32, 'all' is meaning 'all', and it is not meaning 'some' instead. Clearly, and obviously at that, not everything Jesus predicted in the Discourse was fulfilled by 70 AD. That obviously means this generation is still yet to pass, and not that it already has. That would contradict the following if that were true---till all things be fulfilled.

The times of the Gentiles have not already been fulfilled because you were not yet accounted for in the Book of Life before it is unveiled at Christ's coming and it required you to be first born then die to be accounted for as a Testator for Christ, that is blood in blood out as declared in Hebrews -

they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

Since life continued as usual and the Gospel continued to be dispersed throughout the Great Tribulation New Testament generation, then the Book of Life could not be unveiled as a trophy of Christ in declaring that he has defeated the final enemy death in that the works of his Cross have delivered all, so the works of Christ reigning continued after 70AD and did not end at 70AD as he has yet to hand over the Kingdom of Daniel 2:44 to God the Father and was yet to be made his subject to Him as in mission accomplished, because his works in bringing Gentiles to full accountability and numbers as Testators continued after 70AD and we are testament to this fact in historic motion of one day to God being a 1000 years to man.

 

[DavidPT]

The language is one to comfort the flock. Sleep means death, night means to surprise and drunk means complacency. The languge reported is solely to believers and is not to unbelievers.

Of course it was for believers. Yet there are two types of believers though. Those that remain awake and watchful, and those that don't.

I may respond to some of your other points later, I don't know yet. I'm not good at responding to every single point a person might make, especially if they make numerous points, such as you do here. Too much typing for my blood. Maybe typing comes natural to some, but not to me though. I'm old school, which means I'm better at discussing and debating with someone in person rather than in writing, or in this case, typing.

 

[The Times]

Of course it was for believers. Yet there are two types of believers though. Those that remain awake and watchful, and those that don't.

I may respond to some of your other points later, I don't know yet. I'm not good at responding to every single point a person might make, especially if they make numerous points, such as you do here. Too much typing for my blood. Maybe typing comes natural to some, but not to me though. I'm old school, which means I'm better at discussing and debating with someone in person rather than in writing, or in this case, typing.

Ok then Let us do it your way, thanks.

 

[mkgal1]

Jerusalem is still being trodden down after it's destruction in 70 AD.

The Jerusalem that existed prior to 70 A.D. - with the Jewish Temple as its center - is gone (along with the Old Covenant system/priesthood). So the "trampling down" ended a long time ago (I believe).

 

[The Times]

The Jerusalem that existed prior to 70 A.D. - with the Jewish Temple as its center, is gone (along with the Old Covenant system/priesthood). So the "trampling down" ended a long time ago (I believe).

Not if Jerusalem within the New Testament context is actually the fenceless city of peace that is being defended by Jesus at his return in Zechariah 14:1-3.

 

[The Times]

What does the phrase "when the Gentiles come to full" mean to you guys?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Days of Noah pointing to the Flood as a literal event that destroyed suddenly and it was directly authored by God and not man.
.

Days of Noah.....
Roman army swept thru 1st century Judea and Jerusalem as a flood......

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
37 As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

Luke 17:
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah,† so it will be in the days of the Son of Man:
27 People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage† until the day Noah boarded the ark,† and the flood came and destroyed<622> them all
Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.

Hosea 5:10
Judah's leaders are like those who move boundary stones.
I will pour out my wrath on them like a flood of water.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction of Jerusalem

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................


.

 

[The Times]

Days of Noah.....
Roman army swept thru 1st century Judea and Jerusalem as a flood......

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
37 As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
38 For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark
40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.

Luke 17:
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah,† so it will be in the days of the Son of Man:
27 People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage† until the day Noah boarded the ark,† and the flood came and destroyed<622> them all
Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great Distress<318> in the land and wrath upon this people.

Hosea 5:10
Judah's leaders are like those who move boundary stones.
I will pour out my wrath on them like a flood of water.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction of Jerusalem

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Days of Noah is the judgement by God using the natural elements such as water. 2 Peter 3 declares another Extinction Level event where God uses the natural elements, this time fire according to Malachi 4:1 to lay bare the works of man on earth, which means everything is dissolved and no biological life form lives. Both judgements are directly authored by God and not indirectly by God by using man to do his bidding.

 

[mkgal1]

Not if Jerusalem within the New Testament context is actually the fenceless city of peace that is being defended by Jesus at his return in Zechariah 14:1-3.

I believe the Body of Christ (His believers) are the "New Jerusalem" - and that "city" is eternal and without end (in other words - there is no more ages to end).

 

[The Times]

I believe the Body of Christ (His believers) are the "New Jerusalem" - and that "city" is eternal and without end (in other words - there is no more ages to end).

Yes, you are half and half right. The New Jerusalem is the one Jesus speaks about in Zechariah 14:1-3, where he comes to defend it and to route out the enemy who has infiltrated within his Church establishment. The Jerusalem of 70AD was the 'Type', but the New Jerusalem is the 'Anti-Type' that will be defended by Jesus at his coming before the Books are opened.

 

[DavidPT]

I believe the Body of Christ (His believers) are the "New Jerusalem" - and that "city" is eternal and without end (in other words - there is no more ages to end).

Does this mean that the NJ has already come down from God out of heaven, and that we are already in the new heavens and new earth, and not that the new heavens and a new earth was a place Peter was still looking for while he was alive, but had already arrived though he apparently didn't realize it at the time?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



From his perspective at the time it appears to me he was still looking for this in the future, and not that it had already arrived.