Context determines timing in Luke 21:32

mkgal1

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My only dispute in this case is primarily with that of Revelation 14 and one like unto the Son of man in that chapter.

So why would Jesus be seen as being among those that reap the earth when the following clearly indicates otherwise? It seems to me if Jesus is among these, that makes Him an angel then.

Matthew 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

Jesus is the speaker here. I don't see where He indicated that He and the angels are the reapers.


Maybe in general, my entire approach is all wrong? I try my best to interpret things in such a way that there are no obvious contradictions. Others at times give the impression contradictions are irrelevant. I don't understand how something contradictory could actually be the truth though. Granted, sometimes things only seem contradictory when in reality they are really not. But in this case how can Matthew 13:39 mean anything other than it plainly says----the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels? Thus making the two beings seen is Revelation 14 with sickles, angels.
Matthew 13:39 is best interpreted as the "end of the age" ~ R.C. Sproul, The Last Days According to Jesus

39 the enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are the angels. aión



I appreciate your point about the angels coming to Jesus and proclaiming that it was the time of the harvest. I don't have a clear response to this as I've honestly not studied Revelation recently. I did find this, however (it's interesting to me to learn that there was a clear parallel to the timing and the symbolism of the sickles):

In Revelation 14:14-18 angels depart from the Temple and call out to Jesus who is seated on the clouds of heaven holding a sickle in preparation for the harvest at the end of the age. Could the fact that Jesus and the angels in vs. 14-18 are holding sickles hint at the fact that the events described in these verses transpired during the harvest months? Yes. The Jews revolted against Rome during the barley harvest, and the Roman offensive began at the start of the grape harvest hence the sickle imagery and grape harvest symbolism in these verses. ~
Revelation 14 - The Grim Reaper

......and this from Steve Gregg ~ https://www.amazon.com/Revelation-Four-Views-Parallel-Commentary/dp/0840721285:

Some have thought it strange that Christ, the Lord over all angels, would take instructions from an angel who urges Him to Thrust in Your sickle and reap (v. 15). However, the angel simply represents the church praying in obedience to Christ, who commanded that believers “pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest” (Matt. 9:38). In response to the request, laborers are in fact sent and the earth (or land) was reaped(v. 16). ~ Steve Gregg









 
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mkgal1

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Does this mean that the NJ has already come down from God out of heaven, and that we are already in the new heavens and new earth, and not that the new heavens and a new earth was a place Peter was still looking for while he was alive, but had already arrived though he apparently didn't realize it at the time?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.



From his perspective at the time it appears to me he was still looking for this in the future, and not that it had already arrived.
Yes....I believe the NJ is already here in our time (for those that believe are its inhabitants) - but I also believe it was future for Peter, when the NT was written (before 70 AD).
 
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mkgal1

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The New Heaven and New Earth
by MS Cheo

Before I start on this section, allow me to share with you an amusing segment of an email I received from my good friend, Bill of Pinehurst, North Carolina shortly after New Year while I was writing this paper.

‘A short story about our grandson, 4 years old, Tyler. His mom kept telling him about the new year coming, and he wanted to stay up all night to see it. Well, he went to bed at 9 and the next morning came running into his mom's room and asked if the new year came in. She said it did, then he ran to the window to look out and said, "Well, it looks just like the old one...." Ah, from the mouths of babes....’

That interestingly brings out a point. When the New Heaven and New Earth appeared (or to appear in the future, according to our Futurist brothers), was anyone (or will anyone be) aware of its manifestation?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Surprisingly, this verse is devoid of any cataclysmic events typical of the book of Revelation! I mean, if we are talking of the planet Earth being destroyed and a new planet being created in its place, one would have expected at least a few verses describing its catastrophic destruction and a glorious creation (as in Genesis 1). No, none whatsoever. It was as if it was a non-event, or as if the ‘New Heaven and New Earth’ has already existed! It is just like the old year giving way to a new year – nothing really obvious has changed!

It is true (from preterists’ viewpoint) that ‘heaven’ has been used in the Old Testament to depict the religious-political system (the government) and ‘earth’ as the social-religious system (the people), based on the Old Covenant’s Laws and Commandments. And so, it is a natural assumption for preterists to take “New Heaven and New Earth” to mean a new socio-religious-political environment, a new order in the New Covenant era, extending it even unto now. (Futurists simply believe that it is still to be fulfilled as the physical Earth is not destroyed as yet).

This, I believe, is not exactly correct. I would take “New Heaven and New Earth” as just a colloquial expression understood by the ancient Jews to mean “a new beginning”. No more, no less. As such, while the new beginning may have heralded in a new social, religious and political change, it does not have to carry that meaning.

When Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:17 of new believer in Christ – you for example, "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" – Did the old things literally passed away for you? Did all things become new for you? Was anyone even aware of your new conversion (if you have not confessed to them)? Isn’t it just like an old year giving way to a new year? But it was definitely a “new heaven and a new earth” for you.
 
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mkgal1

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Yes, you are half and half right. The New Jerusalem is the one Jesus speaks about in Zechariah 14:1-3, where he comes to defend it and to route out the enemy who has infiltrated within his Church establishment. The Jerusalem of 70AD was the 'Type', but the New Jerusalem is the 'Anti-Type' that will be defended by Jesus at his coming before the Books are opened.
Are you asserting that one day Jerusalem will be literally destroyed in the way it was described in Micah 1? :scratch: I'm actually not following you.
 
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The Times

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Are you asserting that one day Jerusalem will be literally destroyed in the way it was described in Micah 1? :scratch: I'm actually not following you.

2 Peter 3:15 also refers to Paul to the teaching of the coming lawless one owing to the many sons of perdition with New Jerusalem mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2.
 
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mkgal1

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2 Peter 3:15 also refers to Paul to the teaching of the coming lawless one owing to the many sons of perdition with New Jerusalem mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 2.
That doesn't answer my question - but it does seem like a "yes" (in referring to 2nd Peter 3).

I don't take that as literal (2 Peter 3:15) - but, instead, as apocalyptic language.
 
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The Times

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Are you asserting that one day Jerusalem will be literally destroyed in the way it was described in Micah 1? :scratch: I'm actually not following you.

Not the earthly Jerusalem that is born out of a political ideology, but the Jerusalem of God his Church that will be infiltrated by the many Judas Iscariot like sons of perdition as Peter refered to Paul's 2 Thessalonians 2 letter.
 
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The Times

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That doesn't answer my question - but it does seem like a "yes" (referring to 2nd Peter 3).

I don't take that as literal (2 Peter 3:15) - but, instead, as apocalyptic language.

I tried an attempt at answering your post #44 in post #47.

The language with references to Paul's letter makes it literal to the 'Anti-Type" Jerusalem that is the Church of Christ, which had once believers who had originally received the knowledge of the truth, but their hearts darkened like the Judas Iscariots of the world and they turned from the knowledge of the truth and served a lie. The players involved are once believers within the Temple of God who stand in it metaphorically speaking and who desecrate it by replacing the Daily Sacrifice with an Abomination and by doing so Christ casts them out from his Holy Church City Jerusalem by the breath of his mouth and destroys them by the brilliance of his coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8).

Zechariah 14:1-3 paints the exact picture where Christ comes on the Day of Great battle to cast out those reprobates from his Holy Church City and give back to the Saints of the Most High what was stolen from them (refer to Daniel).

The coming of Christ is for his Church and against those within his own Church City Jerusalem in the separation of the Tares from amongst the wheat, that is why in Zechariah 14:1-3 half of those in Christ's Holy City Jerusalem are taken out of it and go off into captivity, yet the remaining half were not taken away from the City.

Note that Jerusalem which was a "Type" was completely taken and no one was left in the City, therefore the Day of the Lord in judgement is not to the unbelievers of the "Type" City but to the "Anti-Type" Church City where the Judas Iscariots (sons of perdition) are within its very walls.
 
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DavidPT

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Yes....I believe the NJ is already here in our time (for those that believe are its inhabitants) - but I also believe it was future for Peter, when the NT was written (before 70 AD).

I take it that you mean it was future, as in a decade or two of him writing that, and not future, as in thousands of years of him writing that?
 
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DavidPT

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Not the earthly Jerusalem that is born out of a political ideology, but the Jerusalem of God his Church that will be infiltrated by the many Judas Iscariot like sons of perdition as Peter refered to Paul's 2 Thessalonians 2 letter.

Would you see these be meaning the ones that fall away according to 2 Thessalonians 2? Could they also be meaning the remnant Jesus destroys in Revelation 19:21?
 
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DavidPT

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Yes, you are half and half right. The New Jerusalem is the one Jesus speaks about in Zechariah 14:1-3, where he comes to defend it and to route out the enemy who has infiltrated within his Church establishment. The Jerusalem of 70AD was the 'Type', but the New Jerusalem is the 'Anti-Type' that will be defended by Jesus at his coming before the Books are opened.



Out of curiosity, and not to get into debate about it, what is your view of the thousand years in Revelation 20, as to when it occurs, that being either before the 2nd coming, or after the 2nd coming?
 
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DavidPT

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The New Heaven and New Earth
by MS Cheo

Before I start on this section, allow me to share with you an amusing segment of an email I received from my good friend, Bill of Pinehurst, North Carolina shortly after New Year while I was writing this paper.

‘A short story about our grandson, 4 years old, Tyler. His mom kept telling him about the new year coming, and he wanted to stay up all night to see it. Well, he went to bed at 9 and the next morning came running into his mom's room and asked if the new year came in. She said it did, then he ran to the window to look out and said, "Well, it looks just like the old one...." Ah, from the mouths of babes....’

That interestingly brings out a point. When the New Heaven and New Earth appeared (or to appear in the future, according to our Futurist brothers), was anyone (or will anyone be) aware of its manifestation?

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Surprisingly, this verse is devoid of any cataclysmic events typical of the book of Revelation! I mean, if we are talking of the planet Earth being destroyed and a new planet being created in its place, one would have expected at least a few verses describing its catastrophic destruction and a glorious creation (as in Genesis 1). No, none whatsoever. It was as if it was a non-event, or as if the ‘New Heaven and New Earth’ has already existed! It is just like the old year giving way to a new year – nothing really obvious has changed!

It is true (from preterists’ viewpoint) that ‘heaven’ has been used in the Old Testament to depict the religious-political system (the government) and ‘earth’ as the social-religious system (the people), based on the Old Covenant’s Laws and Commandments. And so, it is a natural assumption for preterists to take “New Heaven and New Earth” to mean a new socio-religious-political environment, a new order in the New Covenant era, extending it even unto now. (Futurists simply believe that it is still to be fulfilled as the physical Earth is not destroyed as yet).

This, I believe, is not exactly correct. I would take “New Heaven and New Earth” as just a colloquial expression understood by the ancient Jews to mean “a new beginning”. No more, no less. As such, while the new beginning may have heralded in a new social, religious and political change, it does not have to carry that meaning.

When Paul wrote in 2 Cor 5:17 of new believer in Christ – you for example, "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" – Did the old things literally passed away for you? Did all things become new for you? Was anyone even aware of your new conversion (if you have not confessed to them)? Isn’t it just like an old year giving way to a new year? But it was definitely a “new heaven and a new earth” for you.



What is there to look forward to in the future then, if the future is already here?
 
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mkgal1

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Not the earthly Jerusalem that is born out of a political ideology, but the Jerusalem of God his Church that will be infiltrated by the many Judas Iscariot like sons of perdition as Peter refered to Paul's 2 Thessalonians 2 letter.
.....and you believe this is in the future?

In other words....it seems as if you're asserting that His church is NOT eternal - that there will be destruction to it?
 
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mkgal1

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What is there to look forward to in the future then, if the future is already here?
I don't see it that "the future is already here". Instead, I believe that God is reigning NOW (we don't have to wait for that) and He - along with us - are advancing His kingdom. However, as you can see when you just look around - there is still a LOT of progress yet to see (but we can have hope that there truly WILL be progress, because we have history to look back on to see His faithfulness as proof).
 
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Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The first thing to do is consider verse 34 and 36, and from those verses compare the following to the following in 1 Thessalonians 5.

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)----Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night(1 Thessalonians 5:6-7)

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man(Luke 21:36)----For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ(1 Thessalonians 5:9).


And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares(Luke 21:34)-----For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief(1 Thessalonians 5:2-4).

It should be plainly obvious thusfar, the day of the Lord is in focus in the passage above from Luke 21.

In that same context we are told the following---Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Consider this now, which further proves the context involves the day of the Lord. Compare the following in Luke 21 with that of the following in 2 Peter 3.

Heaven and earth shall pass away(Luke 21:33)----But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up(2 Peter 3:10).


It's undeniable at this point, the passage above in Luke 21 concerns the day of the Lord. We now have to consider verse 32----This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. And that clearly means this generation can't pass away before the day of the Lord.

Below is further proof that Luke 21:32 is not meaning the first century.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

Matthew 24 and Revelation 11:2 places Luke 21:24 during the time of the great trib. Matthew 24 places Luke 21:25-26 after the time of the great trib. That means in Luke 21, verse 35, that is not meaning during the GT, but is meaning after the GT. It is meaning during Matthew 24:29, IOW during the 6th seal.

The day of the Lord is not during the great trib, like Pretribbers typically like to conclude, it is after the great trib. And since Luke 21:32 indicates this generation shall not pass, till all be fulfilled, that obviously includes the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. Only Preterists might argue that the times of the Gentiles have already been fulfilled. Pretty much everyone else though, wouldn't dare make a ludicrous claim like that.

In Luke 21:32, 'all' is meaning 'all', and it is not meaning 'some' instead. Clearly, and obviously at that, not everything Jesus predicted in the Discourse was fulfilled by 70 AD. That obviously means this generation is still yet to pass, and not that it already has. That would contradict the following if that were true---till all things be fulfilled.
Nice post. I agree with everything you said. You are exactly right, the tribulation and the Day of the Lord are completely separate events and most pretribbers do not get that. And yet, I believe in a pretribulation rapture.

Matt 24
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Luke 21
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

So what things come to pass? False Christs, wars and rumors of wars, earthquakes, famines, pestilence, signs in the sun, moon and stars.

So we see that there are some that are told..........when you see these things come to pass. They are told to look up their redemption draws night.

And yet we see others that are told.........that you may be counted worthy to escape all theses things that will come to pass and stand before the son of man. This group escapes the hour of testing.
 
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BABerean2

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And yet we see others that are told.........that you may be counted worthy to escape all theses things that will come to pass and stand before the son of man. This group escapes the hour of testing.

Joh 5:27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
Joh 5:29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."


.
 
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The Times

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.....and you believe this is in the future?

In other words....it seems as if you're asserting that His church is NOT eternal - that there will be destruction to it?

Future yes.

No to the destruction of the Church City, but yes to her judgement, where the many sons of perdition within her very walls will be removed from the Holy City by the breath of the Lord's mouth. The nations that come up against Jerusalem are the Gentiles coming to full and the full complement of numbers in the Book of Life is accounted for by those angry nations being feed as their peoples are being born, then dying in the Lord until Christ calls it a day by sounding the Final Trumpet and declaring time not longer.
 
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The Times

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Would you see these be meaning the ones that fall away according to 2 Thessalonians 2?

Yes.

Could they also be meaning the remnant Jesus destroys in Revelation 19:21?

I do not believe so. The riddle is tied to the following statement -

In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people, of all who have been slaughtered on the earth. (Revelation 18:28)

The prostitute that is accused of shedding the blood of all people from Able to that judgement of 70AD is the Old Covenant Religious system that rode the earthly beast system. The prophets are the Old Testament and the Holy people are New Testament Apostles.

I believe 2 Thessalonians 2 is solely concerned with those within the New Covenant Church system who fall away from the faith in Christ.
 
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Out of curiosity, and not to get into debate about it, what is your view of the thousand years in Revelation 20, as to when it occurs, that being either before the 2nd coming, or after the 2nd coming?

My view on the thousand years is Satan is prevented from using the Beast and the False Prophet that was destroyed in 70AD so that the Church continues its commission into new lands that open up for her. The thousand years of Satan commences in 70AD and ends when the Gentiles come to full during the entire New Testament tribulation period before Christ comes to judge the living and the dead when the Books are opened. The millennium occurs before the 2nd coming.
The Battle of Armageddon I believe to be 70AD and the Battle of Gog to before Christ's 2nd coming. The millennium is what separates them until the fullness of the Gentiles come to be accounted for.
 
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