Considering Becoming A Sabbath Keeper

Ubuntu

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@DaveW-Ohev,

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying that your opinions are unwelcome. And sure, you wrote that you belong to another sabbath keeping community, and perceptive readers will also notice that you guys have “Messianic” selected as your faith. But still, since this after all is the adventist subforum, and since I apparently am the only adventist who have participated in this thread, I believe I have to explicitly point this out so that people won’t get confused.

Personally I’m surprised, but apparently people DO mix up adventist and messianic viewpoints. There was this one guy here on Christian Forums who almost refused to believe that we adventists don’t preach circumcision, I had to insist that this was something that came from you messianics, not us. (Anyways, this whole experience has made me pay more attention to you messianics, and I might ask you guys a few questions over in your own subforum.)

* * *

@GracetotheHumble, I promise that I’ll comment about that link you dug up as soon as I get around to it. Just give me some time, m8 ;)
 
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Dave-W

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and I might ask you guys a few questions over in your own subforum.)
Please do!


BTW - I grew up being somewhat familiar with Adventist viewpoints, as I lived only about 10 miles from Andrews Univ. Berrien Springs was where my grandparents and a couple of uncles lived. For a town of about 4000, (excluding the University) there were about 10 or 12 Adventist congregations (again excluding Pioneer Memorial on campus). They were all for different languages.

My dad (former Wesleyan Methodist pastor) did some research at the library there at Andrews and came across a guy with our last name: Ellet J Waggoner, who died in his own hometown of Battle Creek MI about a decade before he was born. (still trying to find out if we are related) He was an important voice in the SDA in the latter 19th century.
 
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I thought I would add the following that shows that observing the Sabbath in reference to "all flesh" (both Jews & Gentiles):

Isaiah 66:22 ASV For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah.

Isa 66:22 KJV For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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I thought I would add the following that shows that observing the Sabbath in reference to "all flesh" (both Jews & Gentiles):

Isaiah 66:22 ASV For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith Jehovah, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah.

Isa 66:22 KJV For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

But that verse doesn't say that all flesh will keep the Sabbath. It merely says that all flesh will worship before him within a week time frame.

It also says "From one new moon to another", so should we be observing the new moon?
 
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DarylFawcett

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It merely says that all flesh will worship before him within a week time frame.
If that were the case, then why even specify "from one sabbath to another"? Why not say "from one week to another" instead?
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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But that verse doesn't say that all flesh will keep the Sabbath. It merely says that all flesh will worship before him within a week time frame.

It also says "From one new moon to another", so should we be observing the new moon?
The moons were the method of time keeping before the Romans gave us our current monthly names and cycles... God established the monthly time reckoning using the moon so it would be expected He will do the same on the new earth as well.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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That's not what scripture says:

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:1
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 15:14
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

I could keep going and quote a ton more verses but this is getting exhausting.
The Bible indeed uses the term gentile to differentiate between the 12 tribes and the rest of the world but there are plenty of verses that speak of gentiles being a part of the Israel of God. You will hear the term 'spiritual Israel' used as the branches grafted to the vine of Israel are there through faith which is given to us from God.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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The moons were the method of time keeping before the Romans gave us our current monthly names and cycles... God established the monthly time reckoning using the moon so it would be expected He will do the same on the new earth as well.

Which is precisely my point. The saying "from Sabbath to Sabbath" is a system of time keeping.
 
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Ubuntu

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I found this to be rather informative concerning the early churches belief on the Sabbath: http://www.catholic.com/tracts/sabbath-or-sunday

The tract you linked to claims that Christians from the earliest times kept the Sunday and taught that the Sabbath was abolished. It’s sole purpose is to argue against the Sabbath, and the author takes many indefensible shortcuts in order to strengthen his case. The author clearly is no Church historian, instead he is an apologist.

For instance it quotes Didache, an early Christian treatise. Didache does certainly not have an undisputed reference to Sunday keeping. In the tract it is quoted and translated like this: "But every Lord’s day . . . gather yourselves together and break bread”. However, “The first clause in Greek, "κατά κυριακήν δέ κυρίου", literally means "On the Lord's of the Lord", a unique and unexplained double possessive”. (Wikipedia.) (As you possibly know, adventists argue that the Biblical uses of "The Lord's Day", refer to the Sabbath, not Sunday.)

If there really had been evidence that Sunday was thought of as the “Lord's Day” in the time of the apostles, then this obviously would have been a problem for Sabbatarians. But you definitively don't find any proof that Sunday was kept as the “Lord's Day” in the first century. The first undisputed references to the “Lord's Day” as Sunday are found in the latter half of the 2nd century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Day#Ambiguous_references

The letter of Ignatius offers no undisputed evidence for Sunday keeping. “The "sabbatizing" then which Ignatius condemns, in the context of the conduct of the prophets, could hardly be the repudiation of the Sabbath as a day, but rather, as R. B. Lewis, asserts, "the keeping of the Sabbath in a certain manner—Judaizing."” https://www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/sabbath_to_sunday/7.html

The first known and undisputed reference to Sunday keeping ("The Eight Day") is found in the Epistle of Barnabas. The author of the tract gives a specific and a very early date for the Epistle of Barnabas. In other words, he tries to give the impression that there is a definitive date for this document. But in fact, most scholars date it to roughly A.D. 130. Here is what the Catholic Encyclopedia says about the dating of this letter:

"Adrian had also forbidden the Jews to practise circumcision. The writer of the letter makes allusion to this (ch. ix, 4). The epistle must, consequently, have been written in A.D. 130-131." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02299a.htm
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Which is precisely my point. The saying "from Sabbath to Sabbath" is a system of time keeping.
So the text can be rightly understood that in the new earth, the month's will be reckoned from the moon and the weeks will be from the Sabbath... the Sabbath is not mentioned only as an arbitrary reference but as a reality of what will be.
 
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Dave-W

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If there really had been evidence that Sunday was thought of as the “Lord's Day” in the time of the apostles, then this obviously would have been a problem for Sabbatarians. But you definitively don't find any proof that Sunday was kept as the “Lord's Day” in the first century. The first undisputed references to the “Lord's Day” as Sunday are found in the latter half of the 2nd century.
And I would submit that it is a misappropriation of the term. A misguided attempt at finding a scriptural basis for Sunday perhaps? "The Lord's Day," or more properly "The Day of the Lord," is a reference to final judgement and destruction.
 
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Ubuntu

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And I would submit that it is a misappropriation of the term. A misguided attempt at finding a scriptural basis for Sunday perhaps? "The Lord's Day," or more properly "The Day of the Lord," is a reference to final judgement and destruction.

Sure, it's definitively a valid interpretation to say that of Revelation 1:10 refers to the prophetic/apocalyptic "Day of the Lord" rather than a day of the week. No doubt! But even if it referred to a day of the week, like proponents of Sunday keepers often say, the only day of the week that biblically can be referred to as "The Lord's Day", is the Sabbath.

Jesus said that the "Son of Man is the Lord of the Sabbath" (Matt 12:8), so the Sabbath can surely be called "the Lord's Day" from a Biblical point of view. However, at some point Christians started to call the Sunday the "Lord's Day", but as I mentioned in my post, there is no evidence that this was the case while the apostles lived.
 
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love2obey

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I have been considering becoming a Seventh Day Adventist or other Sabbath keeper for quite some time. I am a bit confused on the issue still because I hear voices from both sides so lets see if some of my questions can be answered.

My first question is on Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another : another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

My second question is on Colossians 2:16-17

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Thank you for any input you can give on these verses.

So you have have a better understanding of those verses and the rest of the bible please look into the following:


But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him HEB 11:6

All of chapter 11 is based on faith and what can happen to a person who has faith. Yet, the question is faith in what or whom? No one will ever see God, therefore, does He exist? As you can see, I underlined part of the verse above. That is the key of all our questions. Do we know for a fact that God exist and who He is? All we have is faith to answer that, Faith in the written Word, His Word.
And what does He says to us with His Word:
And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made. GEN 2:2,3
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. EX 31:12-14
“God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? NUM 23:19
“For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. MAL 3:6

Then can we say, "God does changes His mind". Would anyone believe in Him. Would you believe in someone you cant trust? I know I wont. I believe in Him because I trust Him. All His teaching, the bible, will guide us to have faith in Him. He who loves us and want what is best for us.
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, The Holy One of Israel: “I am the Lord your God, Who teaches you to profit, Who leads you by the way you should go. ISA 48:17

IF GOD IS NOT ABOUT CHANGES AND THERE ARE SOME MANY CHANGES GOING ON EVEN IN THE GOSPEL, WHAT IS GOING ON?

this is what His Word says to us:
And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 2 Thes 2:11,12

God will not get into a dispute with humanity. What ever we want it is what we are going to get, what we will be.

please read the whole chapter from every verse that I quoted you so you will be able to see the truth as it is meant to be.
keep in mind that what ever we read in the bible should uplift God's name even more, and not make us wonder, question our faith. In the beginning He said and it should be the same throughout the bible. Otherwise, it is not God's Word that we are listening to.
 
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Light of the East

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I have been considering becoming a Seventh Day Adventist or other Sabbath keeper for quite some time. I am a bit confused on the issue still because I hear voices from both sides so lets see if some of my questions can be answered.

My first question is on Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another : another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

My second question is on Colossians 2:16-17

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Thank you for any input you can give on these verses.

The Sabbath was given to the Jews. Like so many other parts of their covenant with God, it pointed to the rest which is in Christ for all who believe.

Exo 31:16

Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

The Covenant of God with the Jews is over, therefore, the Sabbath as part of that covenant, is null and void. Now if you wish to be a Jew, then have at it, but be aware of what Paul said in Galatians about those who would add Jewish law regulations to belief in Christ.

Lev 24:8

Every sabbath he shall set it in order before the LORD continually, being taken from the children of Israel by an everlasting covenant.
Isa 56:6

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

I would highly advise that you get some books on the Early Church of the first three centuries and see what they taught and believed.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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I would highly advise that you get some books on the Early Church of the first three centuries and see what they taught and believed.

Bad advice.... I would study the Bible and see what Jesus taught and believed as we are admonished to in 2 Timothy 2:15
 
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Light of the East

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Bad advice.... I would study the Bible and see what Jesus taught and believed as we are admonished to in 2 Timothy 2:15

Studying the Bible without reference to how the very first Christians understood it has led to about 40,000 denominations in the world.

Do you honestly think that is a good thing, especially when they do not agree with each other on major topics?

The first Christians didn't have Bibles either, did they? How did they learn what to do? How did they come to know what to believe and how to worship without a canon of Scripture?

The writings of the Early Fathers show us what they learned directly from the Apostles. For instance, we see that they believed and taught that the Eucharist is truly the Body and Blood of Christ. How would they have learned that except that they were passing on what they learned directly from the Apostles.

The Bible can be interpreted any number of ways - literally thousands of ways - so what the men who learned from the Apostles taught is really important.
 
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BobRyan

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I have been considering becoming a Seventh Day Adventist or other Sabbath keeper for quite some time. I am a bit confused on the issue still because I hear voices from both sides so lets see if some of my questions can be answered.

My first question is on Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another : another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Welcome to the forum.

Most translations let the reader know that the word "alike" is inserted by the translators - and not in actual text being translated. So then "one man observes one day above another while another observes every day.. the one who observes the day observes it for the LORD the one who does not observe the day does so for the Lord" - the text is talking about the Bible-approved Lev 23 annual holy-days. Some observed one above the others - while other Christians observed them all.

By contrast the pagan-days of Galatians 4 are mentioned by Paul and there - he condemns any observance of any of them.


My second question is on Colossians 2:16-17

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Thank you for any input you can give on these verses.

Colossians 2 is a great example of a chapter that is sometimes misunderstood but careful study of it shows that Paul is condemning man-made tradition and not at all condemning even one line of scripture in that chapter.

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

=========================

In Mark 7:6-13 the Jews were simply "making stuff up" to get around one of the TEN Commandments - and of course Christ condemned them for that.


Christ in Mark 7 and Paul in Col 2 -- condemn the idea of simply "making stuff up".

GOD speaks for God and HE already spoke to this point of changing His Law via church tradition. As we see in Mark 7:6-13

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


That is a case of Christ demonstrating the way that the magisterium is hammered "sola scriptura" in the cases where it is shown via "Sola Scriptura" testing that it is traditions and "doctrines of men" that are at odds with scripture

In Mark 2:19-22 they did it as well and Christ refuted their arguments.

Is it any wonder that in Col 2 the saints were contending with the same problem of man-made-doctrine and traditions -- which is the never-ending opposition to just "making stuff up".
 
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BobRyan

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Studying the Bible without reference to how the very first Christians understood it has led to about 40,000 denominations in the world.
.

What lead to all the different Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant denominations was getting away from the Bible - letting man-made tradition be the new "guide" - which is the very thing Paul is condemning in Colossians 2. Also condemned by Christ in Mark 7:6-13
 
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BobRyan

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I would study the official decision of the first Jerusalem Council recorded in Acts 15.

There were only 4 OT commands that were REQUIRED by gentile believers .

That is not true as we see in Romans 13, in James 2, and in Eph 6:2.

In Eph 6:2 "Honor thy father and mother ... this is the FIRST commandment with a promise" -- and that is only true if one is looking at the unit-of-TEN.

The Saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

The "Baptist Confession of Faith" Section 19, the "Westminster Confession of Faith" section 19.... the Catholic Dies Domini document - by Pope John Paul II - and even their Catechism - admits that the TEN Commandments are still binding on Christians. This is irrefutable.
 
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