Considering Becoming A Sabbath Keeper

GracetotheHumble

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I have been considering becoming a Seventh Day Adventist or other Sabbath keeper for quite some time. I am a bit confused on the issue still because I hear voices from both sides so lets see if some of my questions can be answered.

My first question is on Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another : another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

My second question is on Colossians 2:16-17

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Thank you for any input you can give on these verses.
 
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Ubuntu

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Soyeong

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I have been considering becoming a Seventh Day Adventist or other Sabbath keeper for quite some time. I am a bit confused on the issue still because I hear voices from both sides so lets see if some of my questions can be answered.

My first question is on Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another : another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

The key to Romans 14 is in the first verse, namely that the context of the chapter is about disputable matters of opinion, not the commands of God. They disputed opinions about how to keep the Sabbath, such which things counted as work, but they were not disputing whether to obey God by keeping the Sabbath. Where God has given no clear word, such as whether it is acceptable to eat meat when it is unknown if it has been sacrificed to idols, then each should be convinced in their own minds, but where God has given clear word, human opinion must yield. Meat that had been sacrificed to idols was often later sold on the market, so someone who was at a community meal who didn't know where the meat had come from might be of the opinion that only vegetables should be eaten (Romans 14:2). They were judging others and in turn being resented by them (Romans 14:3).

The only time that God commanded fasting was during the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16:29), but as a disputable matter of human opinion, it had become a common practice to fast twice a week or to commemorate certain events (Luke 18:12). Those who esteemed those days for fasting were judging those who didn't and were in turn being resented (Romans 14:5-6). Whether man esteems one day over another is very different from whether God esteems one day over another, and we are to keep the Sabbath not because man esteemed it over other days, but because God esteemed it, and blessed it, and made it holy, and commanded His people to keep it. So it was these sorts of disputes over human opinion that Paul was seeking to quell and he was certainly not saying that people could feel free to sin in disobedience to God just as long as they were convinced in their own minds that it was ok. So whether to fast on those other days was a disputable matter of human opinion, but whether to fast on the Day of Atonement is a matter of obedience to God. We must obey God rather than man, so we should be careful not to misinterpret something that is against obeying man's opinion as being against obeying God.

My second question is on Colossians 2:16-17

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Thank you for any input you can give on these verses.

The problem with Colossians 2:16-17 is that it can be ambiguous as to whether Paul was saying not to let anyone judge them for obeying God or not to let anyone judge them for not obeying God. The key to determining which is in looking at the views of the people who were judging them:

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits[a] of the world, and not according to Christ.

Paul would never have referred to God's holy, righteous, and good commands as philosophy and empty deceit or according to human tradition. Saying that God's commands were not according to Christ would be pitting the Son against the Father. Paul went into more details about what these elemental spirits are later in the chapter:

Colossians 2:20-23 If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— 21 “Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch” 22 (referring to things that all perish as they are used)—according to human precepts and teachings? 23 These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.

So the people judging the Colossians were teaching human traditions and precepts, self-made religion, asceticism, and severity to the body, and were judging them because they were eating and drinking and keeping God's festivals, as He had commanded. Paul was essentially encouraging them not to let anyone keep them from obeying God or from following Messiah's example of obedience. Again, we should be careful not to misinterpret something that is against obeying man's opinion as being against obeying God.
 
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Ubuntu

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Colossians 2:16-17 is a difficult passage, not only for adventists. It is disputed among Christians theologians what kind of problem that Paul addressed.

A common viewpoint among adventists is that the Sabbaths that Paul talked about here wasn't the weekly Sabbath. Instead it is argued that he spoke about the seremonial sabbaths. The following article is a good example of this perspective: https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/2015/01/rest

The author of the article I linked to has written an entire book about the subject. It's called "Judging the Sabbath - Discovering What Can't Be Found in Colossians 2:16" and is written by Ron du Preez.
 
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Dave-W

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I would study the official decision of the first Jerusalem Council recorded in Acts 15.

There were only 4 OT commands that were REQUIRED by gentile believers (while Jewish believers still had the entire system to keep). But there is an encouragement to learn Moses. (verse 21) I and most Messianics take that as saying gentile believers are ENCOURAGED to keep the Sabbath, but not required to do so.

I know that is not how the SDA understands the issue and that is fine. I am just presenting a viewpoint from another Sabbath keeping community as an option.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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I would study the official decision of the first Jerusalem Council recorded in Acts 15.

There were only 4 OT commands that were REQUIRED by gentile believers (while Jewish believers still had the entire system to keep). But there is an encouragement to learn Moses. (verse 21) I and most Messianics take that as saying gentile believers are ENCOURAGED to keep the Sabbath, but not required to do so.

I know that is not how the SDA understands the issue and that is fine. I am just presenting a viewpoint from another Sabbath keeping community as an option.


Do you think that the 4 rules that were given to the Gentiles in Acts 15 were in addition to the 10 commandments? Because I find it strange that they would prohibit fornication but not murder. Surely "Thou shalt not kill" should still apply to Jesus' gentile disciples.
 
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Dave-W

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Do you think that the 4 rules that were given to the Gentiles in Acts 15 were in addition to the 10 commandments? Because I find it strange that they would prohibit fornication but not murder. Surely "Thou shalt not kill" should still apply to Jesus' gentile disciples.
The fourth prohibition is a bit of a mystery; but may cover that. The 4 prohibitions from Acts 15 are: Idol worship, illicit sex, eating strangled meat and blood.

But what about blood? Do not eat blood? That would be covered by the strangled meat part. Do not have sex during "blood?" (menses) that would be covered under the illicit sex part. So that leaves one more option. It is a possibility that this list was from an early version of the Noachide laws written down in the Talmuds a few centuries later. If so, that would mean "[the shedding of innocent] blood."
 
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GracetotheHumble

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The fourth prohibition is a bit of a mystery; but may cover that. The 4 prohibitions from Acts 15 are: Idol worship, illicit sex, eating strangled meat and blood.

But what about blood? Do not eat blood? That would be covered by the strangled meat part. Do not have sex during "blood?" (menses) that would be covered under the illicit sex part. So that leaves one more option. It is a possibility that this list was from an early version of the Noachide laws written down in the Talmuds a few centuries later. If so, that would mean "[the shedding of innocent] blood."

Interesting. I was under the impression that it meant do not eat blood.
 
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Soyeong

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The fourth prohibition is a bit of a mystery; but may cover that. The 4 prohibitions from Acts 15 are: Idol worship, illicit sex, eating strangled meat and blood.

But what about blood? Do not eat blood? That would be covered by the strangled meat part. Do not have sex during "blood?" (menses) that would be covered under the illicit sex part. So that leaves one more option. It is a possibility that this list was from an early version of the Noachide laws written down in the Talmuds a few centuries later. If so, that would mean "[the shedding of innocent] blood."

The four laws listed in Acts 15 contain one law that is not found in the Noachide laws and, the Noachide laws contain a law that is not listed in Acts 15, and the belief that a righteous Gentile was one who kept the Noachide laws didn't appear until after this period, so it seems doubtful that it is a reference to that, but rather it is a specific list for a specific purpose, namely to prohibit idolatry so that new believers coming to faith could make a clean break from paganism and have table fellowship with other believers.
 
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Soyeong

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Do you think that the 4 rules that were given to the Gentiles in Acts 15 were in addition to the 10 commandments? Because I find it strange that they would prohibit fornication but not murder. Surely "Thou shalt not kill" should still apply to Jesus' gentile disciples.

The problem with making the four laws listed in Acts 15 an exhaustive list is that there are clearly other commands that Christians should be keeping. Jesus said that if we love him, then we should keep his commands, so what about following his commands? There are 1,050 commands in the NT, so what about the other 1,046 commands? And indeed, what about the Ten commandments? It seems obvious to me that the four laws were never intended to be received as an exhaustive list, and the moment you start making exceptions for some laws, there are no grounds to distinguish between which of God's other commands should be kept and which should be disregard. Throughout Scriptures, God is calling His people to back to repentance and obedience, so if you've learned anything from reading them, then you should know that God wants His people not to disregard His commands.

When you have a new believer who has come to faith and who is interested in learning how to serve God, you don't hand them a list of 613 or 1,050 commands and have them memorize them all up front, but rather you start them off with the basic requirements that will allow them to interact with other believers with the understanding that they will continue to learn how to do the rest as time goes on from hearing Scriptures read and from interacting with other believers. That's exactly what is being said in Acts 15:21, where the list of four laws is excused by saying they will continue to learn about Moses every Sabbath, which implies that they were already obeying the command to keep the Sabbath.

We are not to add to or subtract from God's commands (Deuteronomy 4:2) and indeed God's commands are perfect (Psalms 19:7), so adding to or subtracting from something that is perfect would result in something that is less than perfect. We must obey God rather than man and follow Messiah's example rather than man's example, so when God has given many commands and Messiah has given a perfect example of obedience to them for us to follow, and man says we should subtract all but four of them and disregard Messiah's example, then we should instead disregard what man says and obey God and follow Messiah's example, but that was not what was being said in Acts 15.
 
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Ubuntu

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I just wanted to point out something important for people who might find this thread.

Our brothers @Soyeong & @DaveW-Ohev aren’t adventists, (they are messianic Jews) and the ideas that they espouse here in this thread aren't adventist theology. I point this out because I've had to deal with people here on Christian Forums who mistakenly attributed certain messianic ideas to us adventists.

Now, of course I'm not discouraging a healthy dialogue between adventists and messianic Jews, I just want to avoid confusion here. Even if messianics and adventists both keep the Sabbath, we view many important theological matters in a very different light. Now, I won’t comment on what our messianic brothers wrote above, I just want to point out that they introduce theological concepts and ideas that belongs to the messianic faith, not to adventism.
 
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roamer_1

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I have been considering becoming a Seventh Day Adventist or other Sabbath keeper for quite some time. I am a bit confused on the issue still because I hear voices from both sides so lets see if some of my questions can be answered.

Meaning no disrespect to any of my Sabbath-keeping brethren, I would highly encourage deep study on your own, seeing what YHWH says, without the confusion that can be brought by any denominational tradition.

Start first with the promise as spoken here, among others:

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

Start simple, start small... try it out, according to Torah, not according to what others may say. I think you will find it to be the delight that YHWH says it is. I certainly have.

You'll find that the 'how' makes itself apparent, if you avoid traditions and listen to HIM with an open and yearning heart...

THEN make the decision to stay where you are, or join another assembly.

My first question is on Romans 14:5

One man esteemeth one day above another : another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

If you'll study the passage, you'll find it is primarily about fasting.

My second question is on Colossians 2:16-17

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

SEE: The body is of Christ... The body does as the head dictates yes? Then, Yeshua is the example, and he kept Torah, soundly rejected traditions, and never advocated anything else. As a disciple, we are to emulate the Master... That is the whole point of discipleship. 'WWJD' is a very good guide.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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Start first with the promise as spoken here, among others:

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

That promise is to Israel and meant for Jews and not gentile Christians, right?
 
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Soyeong

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That promise is to Israel and meant for Jews and not gentile Christians, right?

The promise is to Israel and anyone grafted into Israel by faith in Messiah. "Gentile" refer to someone who is a foreigner, a heathen, or a pagan, which is no longer an accurate term for believers in Messiah.
 
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GracetotheHumble

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"Gentile" refer to someone who is a foreigner, a heathen, or a pagan, which is no longer an accurate term for believers in Messiah.

That's not what scripture says:

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Acts 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:1
And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 15:14
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

I could keep going and quote a ton more verses but this is getting exhausting.
 
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roamer_1

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That promise is to Israel and meant for Jews and not gentile Christians, right?

Not according to the prophets... The day will come that the Torah will go forth from Jerusalem, and the whole world will keep His Sabbaths.
 
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Dave-W

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