Conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

[Mercy Shown]

Lots of contradictions. Zechariah 13:9 tells us"This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

So a third of the people are purified by fire and two thirds are destroyed by fire. But destroyed does not mean destroyed. I tend to be an annihilationist and believe that God will not allow any ungodlyness. Of course it all comes down to what does it mean that the lake of fire is the second death?

John Wesley believed that the elements that make us up are dedicated to us and can not be used by anyone or anything else. If we are eaten by a shark the shark can use whatever energy is stored in our body but we can not be consumed and would pass through the shark. Of course the issues centers around satin's desire to for creation to destroy itself.

I am more comfortable with annihilation then eternal torture. But it is not a theological hill I am willing to die on.

 

[BobRyan]

This is an interesting topic that raises more questions than it answers. On the one hand, it seems to teach that everyone has eternal life

"seems to teach" is what we get with "inference" where no explicit statement actually says it.

But we do have explicit statements that the saints "inherit eternal life" and that those who accept the Gospel "receive eternal life"
Rom 2:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

The contrast is between those who get "eternal life" and those who do not.


And we have the sinners "do not have eternal life dwelling in them" statement - no inference needed.

1 John 3:15 no murderer has eternal life abiding in him

I find it curious that in Rev 14:11, the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever instead of the torment itself. I was standing watching the smoke rise up from the burning fields in central Florida, and my daughter was standing beside me, craning her neck backward, watching the billowing clouds of smoke inking their way up and out of sight. She finally told me, "Dad, that smoke goes up forever." Maybe that is what John saw in His vision. Who knows?

Indeed. Since Isaiah also shows this idea of smoke going up forever

Is 34:
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
...
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Weeds and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And a habitat of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The goat also will cry to its kind.
Yes, the night-bird will settle there
And will find herself a resting place.
15 The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggs there,
And it will hatch and gather them under its protection.
Yes, the hawks will be gathered there,
Every one with its kind.

 

[Hawkins]

An eternal burning hell is a Jewish concept which is spoken from the perspective of God's absolute sovereignty.
God, as a completely sin-compatible God seeking for His own happiness, will cease His knowledge about those putting into the so-called permanent separation.

God is the God of the living, not the God of the dead.

This was written to the atheists:
God is to build an eternity (not earth) we call Heaven where God will live with angels and humans happily forever and ever. Earth is just a stepping stone to achieve the goal.

On the other hand, God is completely sin-incompatible. He can't be happy in an eternity living with sins. That's why, for everyone's happiness, Law is set up to identify the so-called righteous who can live with such a sin-incompatible God eternally. Law followed by a Final Judgment defines who is qualified to enter Heaven. At the same time, Law serves as God's promise to say that, "if you pass this Judgment of Law, I will bear with you in eternity, no matter what".

Under this Law, 2/3 angels will pass the Judgment to enter Heaven, as hinted in the book of Revelation. However under the bad influence of the other 1/3 angels who are much more capable and intelligent than humans (like the crafty snake in Eden), no human can pass such a Judgment of Law. Just as said, no one is righteous (i.e., in front of Law) not even one.

As a result, either humans as a whole shall be destroyed, as demanded by Law, or God must provide an alternative salvation for human kind. Needless to say this alternative salvation is through Jesus Christ's self-sacrifice. Covenants are thus granted to humans (human only) and now humans are subject to the Judgment of Covenant instead of the Judgment of Law.

As shown in Genesis, the Eden story to be more specific, there are two crucial factors which caused the fall of Adam. First is the lack of obedience and the second is the lack of faith. Law is an assessment of obedience, which humans would fail. Covenants at the end are about the assessment of human faith. If humans failed again, naturally they will be condemned.

God is the God of living, not the God of the dead. God at the end will withdraw His knowledge as well as His influence from a place lying outside of God's own dwelling realm. While any realm outside of God's realm will inevitably decay to a hell where the most evil and the most powerful one will eventually rule. This happens to be Satan. Satan is your god in a realm where God's influence is absent, it is a thus a hell. So ask your god Satan for help in case you have any needs. That's actually the meaning of being condemned.

Moreover, our universe is not the nature, it's God-made instead. True nature is supposed to be filled with energy and fire. Without God's active maintenance, hell will return to the true nature at the end. Satan is incapable of countering being swallowed by the true nature. That's what the meaning of a burning hell is.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I am more comfortable with annihilation then eternal torture. But it is not a theological hill I am willing to die on.

Annihilation seems to me a temporal claim. If, in God's mind, they don't exist anymore doesn't that imply that they never existed?

I tend to think for those of us who go to eternal torment, it is, maybe, a matter of degree than of length of time, time being irrelevant 'after' this temporal existence —the term, 'eternal', being the easiest way to communicate the quality and feel of infinity.

 

[Diamond72]

I am more comfortable with annihilation then eternal torture. But it is not a theological hill I am willing to die on.

I prayed about this and the answer I got is that God is a God of absolute and Perfect Justice. He scales of Justice are perfectly balanced. People may harm themselves and we pay a price for that. But the real issue is the harm they do to others. I think people pay a price for that also. If not in this life then people believe there is punishment in some sort of a after life. But the Justice of God is that they not suffer more than that they deserve. Of course we try to do good so that we can go onto our reward. I am actually more strict than anyone I know. I would not work in a fast food or in a convenience store because I do not want to be a part of people hurting themselves. Even if it is just junk food. Like Jesus I was a carpenter and I did repairs for people on their house. People need a shelter and a place to live so I see no harm or injury in that. But it is very difficult to find work where you are not doing harm or injury to others in some sort of way. There was a book about this: What Would Jesus Do. They asked the question of what sort of life can we live to bring glory, honor, and praise to God. How would or how did Jesus live HIs life to always do good.

 

[BobRyan]

Annihilation seems to me a temporal claim. If, in God's mind, they don't exist anymore doesn't that imply that they never existed?

I tend to think for those of us who go to eternal torment, it is, maybe, a matter of degree than of length of time, time being irrelevant 'after' this temporal existence —the term, 'eternal', being the easiest way to communicate the quality and feel of infinity.

humans don't become god-like infinite timeless eternal as soon as they do something wicked.

God's Word refers to us as "mortal man".

• Psalm 146:3
  Do not trust in noblemen, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
• Isaiah 13:12
  I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
  
  
• Isaiah 51:12
  “I, I Myself, am He who comforts you. Who are you that you are afraid of mortal man, And of a son of man who is made likegrass,

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

By contrast , in the case of the saints.
John 3: 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Mark Quayle said:
Annihilation seems to me a temporal claim. If, in God's mind, they don't exist anymore doesn't that imply that they never existed?

I tend to think for those of us who go to eternal torment, it is, maybe, a matter of degree than of length of time, time being irrelevant 'after' this temporal existence —the term, 'eternal', being the easiest way to communicate the quality and feel of infinity.

humans don't become god-like infinite timeless eternal as soon as they do something wicked.

God's Word refers to us as "mortal man".

• Psalm 146:3
  Do not trust in noblemen, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
• Isaiah 13:12
  I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold And mankind than the gold of Ophir.
  
  
• Isaiah 51:12
  “I, I Myself, am He who comforts you. Who are you that you are afraid of mortal man, And of a son of man who is made likegrass,

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

What? We're talking about AFTER this temporal life.

Of course we are mortal now!

By contrast , in the case of the saints.
John 3: 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

Even when one is born again, his body is still mortal. But that isn't what I was talking about; rather, I was discussing the term "eternal" in the question of 'eternal torment' in the LOF.

 

[Diamond72]

Annihilation seems to me a temporal claim. If, in God's mind, they don't exist anymore doesn't that imply that they never existed?

Different people have different opinions. Some believe God has the power to forget. Others say He does not forget. He just does not count it against people anymore. I believe ungodliness will be eliminated as if it never existed. All that would remain is ashes and smoke. Although during the 1,000 year reign of Christ people will go to the battleground of Armageddon to see what took place there.

Isaiah 66:24
"As they go forth, they will see the corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm will never die, their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind."

 

[Diamond72]

I was discussing the term "eternal" in the question of 'eternal torment' in the LOF.

Eternal torment for a temporal sin? That does not seem Just and we know that God is absolute, perfect and precise Justice. His scales of justice have an even balance.

Job 31:6
let God weigh me with honest scales, that He may know my integrity.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Different people have different opinions. Some believe God has the power to forget. Others say He does not forget. He just does not count it against people anymore. I believe ungodliness will be eliminated as if it never existed. All that would remain is ashes and smoke. Although during the 1,000 year reign of Christ people will go to the battleground of Armageddon to see what took place there.

Isaiah 66:24
"As they go forth, they will see the corpses of the men who have rebelled against Me; for their worm will never die, their fire will never be quenched, and they will be a horror to all mankind."

CS Lewis calls them "immortal horrors". “There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal. Nations, cultures, arts, civilizations - these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat. But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub and exploit - immortal horrors or everlasting splendors."

 

[Mark Quayle]

Eternal torment for a temporal sin? That does not seem Just and we know that God is absolute, perfect and precise Justice. His scales of justice have an even balance.

Job 31:6
let God weigh me with honest scales, that He may know my integrity.

From our point of view, the deed of sin is done temporally, yes, but sin is rebellion against eternal and infinite God —thus, any sin is justly infinitely punishable. There are no small sins. The horror of sin is beyond our capacity to understand, though we can see that it is altogether evil, and that its designs oppose or corrode at the structure of truth and reality.

 

[Diamond72]

but sin is rebellion against eternal and infinite God

We are to give praise, honor and glory to God. The story of Satan is he wanted people to worship him. I do not understand why because there is NOTHING better then to worship God. For our own benefit because it puts us into a positive state of mind. Negative begets negative and positive begets positive. God can not stand it when people grumble and complain. Even if they call it prayer.

 

[CoreyD]

BobRyan said:
The lake of fire being literal - eternal fire (eternal as in - its source is from God who is eternal) - that not only punishes the wicked and then "destroys both body and soul" Matt 10:28 at its conclusion - but also wipes out all life on Earth , consumes the surface of the Earth, the atmosphere and all the junk we have orbiting the planet - then on this same planet reformats and God creates a new Earth as Rev 21 says - is a reasonable "natural" reading of a lot of the details that you find in Rev 20 and 21. In rev 20 fire comes down out of God and devours the wicked.

Mal4:3 "the wicked will be ashes under the soles of your feet" - fits the scenario above after the lake of fire event concludes and after the New Earth is created . It fits the Bible concept that the wicked do not get eternal life not even "eternal poor-quality life"

In Rev 20 God is real, saints are real, death is real, second death is real, resurrection in Rev 20:1-5 is real, judgment is real, the lake of fire is real in Rev 20. The fact that some symbols exist that stand for other "real things" does not remove those things that are literal and real.

Notice this in the book of Jude -
Jude 1: 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling place, these He has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The fire was supernatural, from God, eternal fire... yet it was also real , it destroyed real cities.

2 Pet 2:6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the perverted conduct of unscrupulous people 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from a trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

I thought the lake of fire is the second death. Well, according to the angel.
Isn't that what Christians believe and teach?

 

[BobRyan]

I thought the lake of fire is the second death.

yes - agreed.

Well, according to the angel.
Isn't that what Christians believe and teach?

yes.

 

[KevinT]

Hey all, I thought I'd jump into this thread that has been going on for about 8 months now. I tried to review all the posts, but I'm sure I missed some points.

Here is my summary so far:

• People here seem to have quite passionate views. I.e. they feel very strongly about their interpretation on this topic.
• There is some ambiguity in the Bible. Some passages seem to lean one way, and others the opposite.
• Some want to use reasoning in their decision making. E.g. Would a loving God cause an eternity of suffering for errors committed in a short lifetime? Others want to stick only to passages written down in scripture, preferring the ones that support their conclusion.

I want to offer a re-framing of the issue. A different way of thinking about this. Hang with me here, this is a bit technical.

There is a theory in physics that information is never lost. Everything that is done leaves a trace in the universe. When an egg is cracked and scrambled, it would be exceedingly difficult to reverse the process and "unscramble" it, but all the atoms and molecules are still there and all the processes can be theoretically reversed (albeit against the flow of entropy). Consider next that when I mow my lawn, light from the sun bounces off my face and reflects back upward to space. This light will travel outward forever. If I could find a wormhole and pop out at a distance and look back at the earth with a powerful telescope, I could see that light-picture of me mowing. Or if I went out further, I could see the light showing Christ's crucifixion. And this image that has radiated out into the universe is not just a superficial movie of the past, it would encompass all the radiation in all the frequencies providing information down to a microscopic level.

Now imagine a very technologically advanced civilization that have the ability to assemble molecules in any arbitrary way. Like 3D printing with matter. If you took a person, and made a detailed scan of them, you could assemble a living, breathing copy of that person. The old sci-fi show, Star Trek, explored this idea with its teleporter. And while science FICTION doesn't have a role in considering Christian theology, the concept of matter manipulation is entirely consistent with God's creation. Philip was teleported after baptizing the Ethiopian. Acts 8:39 "And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus..." Did God move all the atoms and molecules that Philip was made of, or did He simply use the information of Philip and reconstruct him in Azotus? Obviously we don't know, but it is interesting to consider. And I would argue the later makes more sense.

I propose that a person can considered as a collection of information. What is the shape of the persons face? What is the arrangement of neurons in their brain? What is the location of all the neurotransmitters in their neuron synapses? What is the position of the potassium atoms creating electrical charge during depolarization of the neurons, that carry a signal, that ultimately comprise the person's thoughts? All of this could be packaged up into one large bundle of information.

So if we can accept that a person can be reduced to information, and that information in the universe is never lost, then it become possible to reconstruct anyone from the past. Or for that matter, reconstruct their home, there family, their town, their planet. The only difference is a matter of scale.

All this that I have described might well be wrong. If so, there is likely instead there is some other reality that is likely just as complicated. If nothing else, ask yourself if God could bring back to life people from the past -- such as Moses and Elijah as two witnesses in the book of Revelation 11 (I think these are figurative, but that's another post). I think we would all agree that this would easily be something God could do. Thus all people "exists", at least in this theoretical information sense, forever. Not necessarily alive and conscious, but still existing.

Now imagine trying to communicate all this to people in the past, who would consider a microwave oven to be magic. What kind of words would a prophet put to paper after being shown a vision? What sort of vision would God use? A literal one, or one that gets across the most important message? If a person dies, and a future judgement determines that the man is not safe to recreate/resurrect, is that person being punished? I'd say, yes. Although a genocidal Hitler could be reconstituted, many many people would say NO! One could say that person is being "punished" forever, and the consequences or "smoke" of this decision lasts forever.

Ultimately, personal musings must be conformed to scripture. But I thought it might be interesting to consider one possible "behind-the-scenes" explanation for what the Bible describes. I personally believe in annihilation of the wicked, as I feel it is most compatible with a loving God. But if you take my beliefs and two quarters, you will have 50 cents. Ha!

What do you think? Too crazy?

Kevin

 

[Mark Quayle]

Now imagine a very technologically advanced civilization that have the ability to assemble molecules in any arbitrary way. Like 3D printing with matter. If you took a person, and made a detailed scan of them, you could assemble a living, breathing copy of that person. The old sci-fi show, Star Trek, explored this idea with its teleporter. And while science FICTION doesn't have a role in considering Christian theology, the concept of matter manipulation is entirely consistent with God's creation. Philip was teleported after baptizing the Ethiopian. Acts 8:39 "And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord carried Philip away, and the eunuch saw him no more, and went on his way rejoicing. 40 But Philip found himself at Azotus..." Did God move all the atoms and molecules that Philip was made of, or did He simply use the information of Philip and reconstruct him in Azotus? Obviously we don't know, but it is interesting to consider. And I would argue the later makes more sense.

I propose that a person can considered as a collection of information. What is the shape of the persons face? What is the arrangement of neurons in their brain? What is the location of all the neurotransmitters in their neuron synapses? What is the position of the potassium atoms creating electrical charge during depolarization of the neurons, that carry a signal, that ultimately comprise the person's thoughts? All of this could be packaged up into one large bundle of information.

So if we can accept that a person can be reduced to information, and that information in the universe is never lost, then it become possible to reconstruct anyone from the past. Or for that matter, reconstruct their home, there family, their town, their planet. The only difference is a matter of scale.

The thought keeps returning to me, a speculation, that the smallest particle of matter/energy is something from God or even of God, (and no, not talking some sore of pantheism, here —God is not comprised of our Universe), such that the substance that comprises this "God Particle" is, perhaps, a very physical substance— such as the Love of God. If it were so, it would explain a lot of riddles we find in the Bible. God's universal love and management and even intimate involvement of every detail of fact, would be one example. It would also add definition to many concepts, such as the nature of sin, and the horror that evil is. Physical (natural) riddles also: It would certainly explain the retention of information, and even the evolution of entropy.

Also, if this were so, it would certainly make the question you raise concerning teleportation done by God easy to believe and to justify to the human mind: God, the creator and organizer of very fact, even reality, from whom and in whom all exists, who astoundingly made something that is ELSE and not him, but from him, or even of him, being still the organizer of the smallest particle of matter, in whom INTENT can be what we consider physical substance. God saying, "There, and no longer here", "Azotus, and no longer the desert road," and it is so. By other means and studies I have long since concluded that all we are is God's use for us —at best, God's assessment of us. Intent!

But, yes, I agree that the notion raises other questions and incongruities with what we suppose to be true. Still, I think there is something to it. A lot of fun, though...

Now, annihilation of the wicked... how would this work, if we are information?... hmmm. And if we are Intent? —even more hmmmm! (My old eyes can't make out the head-scratching emoji.)

 

[tonychanyt]

What do you think? Too crazy?

Kevin

Great insights

See also What is the human soul technically?

 

[tonychanyt]

But, yes, I agree that the notion raises other questions and incongruities with what we suppose to be true. Still, I think there is something to it. A lot of fun, though...

Right, there is an information theory speculation that says everything that has happened since the Big Bang can be coded/recorded as a sequence of 0's and 1's

 

[KevinT]

The thought keeps returning to me, a speculation, that the smallest particle of matter/energy is something from God or even of God, (and no, not talking some sore of pantheism, here —God is not comprised of our Universe), such that the substance that comprises this "God Particle" is, perhaps, a very physical substance— such as the Love of God. If it were so, it would explain a lot of riddles we find in the Bible. God's universal love and management and even intimate involvement of every detail of fact, would be one example. It would also add definition to many concepts, such as the nature of sin, and the horror that evil is. Physical (natural) riddles also: It would certainly explain the retention of information, and even the evolution of entropy.

...

Now, annihilation of the wicked... how would this work, if we are information?... hmmm. And if we are Intent? —even more hmmmm! (My old eyes can't make out the head-scratching emoji.)

I agree that God is not comprised of our Universe. But as it's author, its actions a can be considered to be an example of His mighty arm. Consider all the plagues in Egypt, operating under physical principles. Deuteronomy 4:34 "Or has a god tried to go to take for himself a nation from within another nation by trials, by signs and wonders and by war and by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm and by great terrors, as the Lord your God did for you in Egypt before your eyes?"

Regarding a low level substance, or "God particle", current quantum field theory postulates that all substance, e.g. protons and photons, is really just ripples or excitations of universal quantum fields. What comprises these fields is unknown but I have no doubt that some level of the Father's government are responsible for generating/supporting/maintaining them. My favorite wild speculation is that the four living creatures, seen in Revelation at the throne of God, are really the four creatures "of life", and they are the ones who support the quantum fields that support all life. Absolutely no justification or support for this pet theory. But fun none-the-less.

Regarding "intent", I'll have to scratch my head on that one.... Interesting and fun to speculate.

Best wishes,
Kevin

 

[CoreyD]

yes - agreed.

yes.

I must have misunderstood you then. I'm sorry.
Either that, or you don't believe what Christians do, but I will go with the former, even though I am confused about whether you believe the lake of fire is actual fire, or it symbolically represents the second death, which is what the angel says.