Conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

[tonychanyt]

I would give infinite torment a two or a three.

a two of a three what?

 

[Diamond7]

a two of a three what?

Two or three out of ten. Of course there can be degrees of "torment". Mild or extreme. The punishment could be banned from entering into the presence of God. You have to be holy to enter into the Holiness of God. Washed, cleansed and sanctified from all impurity.

 

[Diamond7]

The "eternal" nature of that death punishment is that no one ever comes out of it..

I wonder if the second death represents the end of their memory. As if they had never been alive. We know this happens with the redeemed. For example, in Jeremiah 31:34 (New International Version), it says: "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Some interpret the "lake of fire" as symbolic, representing the destruction of evil and wickedness rather than eternal torment. In this interpretation, it may imply that God's justice is served, and the evil is ultimately eradicated.

 

[CoreyD]

The punishment of the wicked is death "The wages of sin is death" Rom 6:23 not "eternal life" -
No text every says the wicked get eternal life - but in a state of misery.
No text says "everyone has eternal life but some spend it in heaven and others spend it in the lake of fire".

Yet many preachers today will say that very thing.

The "eternal" nature of that death punishment is that no one ever comes out of it.. They will always remains dead. Unlike the first death where all come out of it - both the saved and the lost are resurrected from it.

To "destroy both body and soul" in that eternal fire Matt 10:28 is not the same as "to never be able to fully destroy both body and soul"

Jude 1: 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:
6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; ...

10 Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties, 11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord. 12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed, 13 suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong. They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime.

Thank you very much.

 

[BobRyan]

I wonder if the second death represents the end of their memory. As if they had never been alive. We know this happens with the redeemed. For example, in Jeremiah 31:34 (New International Version), it says: "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Some interpret the "lake of fire" as symbolic, representing the destruction of evil and wickedness rather than eternal torment. In this interpretation, it may imply that God's justice is served, and the evil is ultimately eradicated.

The lake of fire being literal - eternal fire (eternal as in - its source is from God who is eternal) - that not only punishes the wicked and then "destroys both body and soul" Matt 10:28 at its conclusion - but also wipes out all life on Earth , consumes the surface of the Earth, the atmosphere and all the junk we have orbiting the planet - then on this same planet reformats and God creates a new Earth as Rev 21 says - is a reasonable "natural" reading of a lot of the details that you find in Rev 20 and 21. In rev 20 fire comes down out of God and devours the wicked.

Mal4:3 "the wicked will be ashes under the soles of your feet" - fits the scenario above after the lake of fire event concludes and after the New Earth is created . It fits the Bible concept that the wicked do not get eternal life not even "eternal poor-quality life"

 

[Diamond7]

The lake of fire being literal - eternal fire

I had a dream where I was falling in the bottomless pit. Years later I came to realize this was a dormant volcano. So now I know the literal lake of fire is a volcano. There is talk about the smoke from a volcano blocking the sun during the day and the stars at night. Of course, we have all heard of pompeii and the remains of the people there covered in volcanic ash. Their state is eternal destruction.

 

[BobRyan]

I had a dream where I was falling in the bottomless pit. Years later I came to realize this was a dormant volcano. So now I know the literal lake of fire is a volcano. There is talk about the smoke from a volcano blocking the sun during the day and the stars at night. Of course, we have all heard of pompeii and the remains of the people there covered in volcanic ash. Their state is eternal destruction.
View attachment 336607

"As excavators continued to uncover human remains, they noticed that the skeletons were surrounded by voids in the compacted ash. By carefully pouring plaster of Paris into the spaces, the final poses, clothing, and faces of the last residents of Pompeii came to life." -- so what you are seeing is the plaster of Paris "filling" the void left behind.

 

[Diamond7]

so what you are seeing is the plaster of Paris "filling" the void left behind.

We are seeing people that did not have enough sense not to live by a volcano. I remember when we were looking for a house it was a wet spring and a lot of houses were having flooding and mold problems. We thought it would be a good idea to get a house where we did not have to worry about flooding.

 

[CoreyD]

The lake of fire being literal - eternal fire (eternal as in - its source is from God who is eternal) - that not only punishes the wicked and then "destroys both body and soul" Matt 10:28 at its conclusion - but also wipes out all life on Earth , consumes the surface of the Earth, the atmosphere and all the junk we have orbiting the planet - then on this same planet reformats and God creates a new Earth as Rev 21 says - is a reasonable "natural" reading of a lot of the details that you find in Rev 20 and 21. In rev 20 fire comes down out of God and devours the wicked.

Mal4:3 "the wicked will be ashes under the soles of your feet" - fits the scenario above after the lake of fire event concludes and after the New Earth is created . It fits the Bible concept that the wicked do not get eternal life not even "eternal poor-quality life"

I did not realize you thought the lake of fire was literal fire.
Why do you believe that? Do you believe the wild beast is literal?

 

[BobRyan]

I did not realize you thought the lake of fire was literal fire.

It is eternal fire -- "coming down out of heaven from God" -- so -- not a volcano

Rev 20: 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Sodom and Gomorrah were also exhibited as an example of undergoing the "punishment of eternal fire".
Jude 1: 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

They were "destroyed by reducing them to ashes"
2 Peter 2:6 He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly;

Why do you believe that? Do you believe the wild beast is literal?

There is a ton of symbolism in the book of Revelation but not all of it is a symbol of something.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, using abusive speech where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

Even the Devil - the "covering cherub" is "reduced to ashes n the text of Ezek 28.

Ezek 28:16
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

===========================

Some will say that each time you find a text going that direction you need to step back and re-think it for a bit. But I am ok with the text as it reads in this case.

 

[CoreyD]

It is eternal fire -- "coming down out of heaven from God" -- so -- not a volcano

Rev 20: 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Sodom and Gomorrah were also exhibited as an example of undergoing the "punishment of eternal fire".
Jude 1: 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

They were "destroyed by reducing them to ashes"
2 Peter 2:6 He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly;


There is a ton of symbolism in the book of Revelation but not all of it is a symbol of something.


2 Peter 2:12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, using abusive speech where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,

Even the Devil - the "covering cherub" is "reduced to ashes n the text of Ezek 28.

Ezek 28:16
Therefore I have cast you as profane
From the mountain of God.
And I have destroyed you, you covering cherub,
From the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Your heart was haughty because of your beauty;
You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.
I threw you to the ground;
I put you before kings,
That they may see you.
18 By the multitude of your wrongdoings,
In the unrighteousness of your trade
You profaned your sanctuaries.
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.
19 All who know you among the peoples
Are appalled at you;
You have become terrified
And you will cease to be forever.”’”

===========================

Some will say that each time you find a text going that direction you need to step back and re-think it for a bit. But I am ok with the text as it reads in this case.

The angel is the one who said it's symbolic, as he did the wild beast.
Surely you don't think we get to decide otherwise. Do you??

 

[Diamond7]

I did not realize you thought the lake of fire was literal fire.
Why do you believe that?

Everything in the Bible is literal first and symbolic second. This is the basic rule of Bible interpretation. The Bible contains a variety of literary styles and genres, including historical narrative, poetry, metaphor, parables, prophecy, allegory, and symbolism.

Jesus said: “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 18 2

Young children often interpret the Bible in a literal and straightforward manner, taking the stories and teachings at face value. This is a natural aspect of childhood cognitive development, where abstract or symbolic thinking is still developing, and children tend to understand things in concrete and literal terms.

Parents, educators, and religious leaders often use simple language and visual aids to help children grasp the basic narratives and moral lessons found in the Bible. As children grow and mature intellectually and emotionally, they may begin to understand and interpret the Bible in more nuanced and symbolic ways, appreciating the deeper meanings and moral teachings embedded within the stories.

 

[Hawkins]

Eternal hell is a long time Pharisaic concept adapted literally by all the Jews who submit to the Judaism enforced by the Pharisees. That represents like 90% of the religious Jews, except for the minority Sadducees. There are only a very small percetage of Hellenistic Jews who are secular in Jesus' days.

Such a concept is clearly mentioned by 1st century Jewish historian Josephus, as he himself is a famed Pharisee, in his explanation to the Greeks on the topic.

By Josephus:

Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls......

In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment......

Jesus never objected or rejected such a Pharisaic concept, He's rather endorsed it, implicitly if not explicitly, such as,

Matthew 25:41:
Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;


This is rather a widely and firmly accepted concept to the Jews in majority back to Jesus' days. We can pretty safe to assume that a truth is conveyed in such a conceptual form of the ancient Jews.


That being said. God's goal is to build an eternity we call Heaven for humans and angels to live with Him, a completetly sin-incompatible forever. You are either with God in eternity, or you are not with Him.

On the other hand, Satan is referred to as the god of this world because earth is established as a wilderness where God's only job is to save His sheep. Christians are thus told that they don't belong here, and they will fall victim in such a wilderness. It reflects that in a world where the influence of God, who is the only source of good, is absent the most evil and the most powerful will finally rule. This happens to be the devil (if he's removed, there will be another in his place as the most evil and the most powerful). If you are not with God, then you are in the devil's world while he has all the will and ability to keep you captive, literally as a sinning machine as he is.

Moreover against human concept, our universe is not the nature as humans assume. Instead, our universe is God-made. True nature is supposed to be full of energy and fire. If you are not with a God of creations, you are returned to the true nature where your god, who happens to be the devil, doesn't know how to create a world no matter how hard you try to ask him to (possibly the devil keeps captive to avoid you from asking for anything similar, duh).


My own assumption is,
You won't be able to live as a sane person for long in such a world ruled by the devil. Maybe you are no more than a zombie with no sanity. Humans are designed with a self-protection mechanism. Possibly under such an extreme situation, not only that you may turn insane but also that the nervous sensing of pain may become numbness, just as a zombie in all aspects.

 

[CoreyD]

Everything in the Bible is literal first and symbolic second. This is the basic rule of Bible interpretation.

I understand that some persons hold that view, but while that rule, which Martin Luther held to, and which reasonably countered the allegorists, the rule should not override clearly stated rules, especially those coming from angelic messages of God.

In Ezekiel, Daniel, and Revelation, God used angels to give visions, which were presented in symbols, and often stated this as the case.

The question of whether to listen to an angel of God, over what rule a man makes, is not a difficult one for me. It shouldn't be to any Christian.

Angel of God

The goat is the king of Greece. And the great horn between his eyes is the first king. Daniel 8:;21​

Christian :

Okay. Yes, I accept that the goat is symbolic of the king of Greece, and the horn between its eyes, symbolizes the first king.​

Angel of God

The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings. Revelation 17:9, 10​

Christian :

Okay. Yes Lord, I accept that the seven heads - the seven mountains on which the woman is seated, symbolically represent seven kings. Yes.​

Angel of God

The waters that you saw, where the prostitute is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and languages.. Revelation 17:15​

Christian :

Okay. Yes Lord, I accept that the waters where the prostitute is seated, are symbolic of peoples and multitudes and nations and languages. Amen! Hallelujah!​

​

Angel of God

The lake of fire is the second death.. Revelation 20:14​

Unbeliever : What? No. No way. No God No. Uh Uh. Nope.
Christian :

Okay. Yes Lord, I accept that the lake of fire is symbolic of the second death. Yeah. ​

​

​

The Christian is on the angel's side, all the way, which means they are on God's side, accepting what God says, rather than what men would have us believe.
Would you not agree, that is the course of wisdom? It means life or death, doesn't it.

Deuteronomy 18:19 :-
I will hold accountable anyone who does not listen to My words that the prophet [in this case, the angel, which is greater than the prophet] speaks in My name.

Acts 3:23 :-
Anyone who does not listen to him [in this case, the angel, which is greater than the prophet] will be completely cut off from their people.

2 Peter 2:9-11

 

[CoreyD]

Eternal hell is a long time Pharisaic concept adapted literally by all the Jews who submit to the Judaism enforced by the Pharisees. That represents like 90% of the religious Jews, except for the minority Sadducees. There are only a very small percetage of Hellenistic Jews who are secular in Jesus' days.

Such a concept is clearly mentioned by 1st century Jewish historian Josephus, as he himself is a famed Pharisee, in his explanation to the Greeks on the topic.

By Josephus:

Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls......

In this region there is a certain place set apart, as a lake of unquenchable fire, whereinto we suppose no one hath hitherto been cast; but it is prepared for a day afore-determined by God, in which one righteous sentence shall deservedly be passed upon all men; when the unjust, and those that have been disobedient to God, and have given honor to such idols as have been the vain operations of the hands of men as to God himself, shall be adjudged to this everlasting punishment......

Jesus never objected or rejected such a Pharisaic concept, He's rather endorsed it, implicitly if not explicitly, such as,

Matthew 25:41:
Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

Thanks for the use of scripture. Matthew 25:31-46 describes the separating of the symbolic sheep and goats.
Earlier, Jesus said :
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna [Greek γέεννα - geenna].” Matthew 10:28

Gehenna is Greek a valley South and South-West of ancient Jerusalem, called Valley of Hinnom.

The Valley of Hinnom, Gehinnom or Gehenna is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest, that has acquired various theology connotations, including as a place of divine punishment in Jewish eschatology.

I found that article an interesting and informative read.
People, have their various views, but whatever views we may have, one thing we can be sure of is this:
Both soul and body - a person's whole being - are destroyed in Gehenna.

So, this everlasting fire is obviously symbolic of everlasting destruction - as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 regarding the wicked, and Revelation 20:14 regarding death, and the place of the dead.

I believe, once we accept this, any confusion, or potential for such, quickly dissipates.

“And I say to you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after this there is nothing more for them to do.
But I will show you whom you should fear: that one who after he kills is authorized to cast into Gehenna; yes I say to you, be afraid of this one.”
Luke 12:4, 5​

 

[Diamond7]

I understand that some persons hold that view

There are basic rules of Bible interpretation that they teach in Bible college.

Bible interpretation involves various approaches, and understanding whether a particular passage is to be taken literally or allegorically often depends on the genre, context, historical background, and literary style of the text. Different parts of the Bible may require different interpretative methods. Here are some fundamental principles that are commonly used to determine whether a passage should be interpreted literally or allegorically:

1. Consider Literary Genre: Understand the literary genre of the passage—whether it is historical narrative, poetry, parable, prophecy, allegory, apocalyptic, or epistolary. Each genre may require a different approach to interpretation.
2. Historical and Cultural Context: Consider the historical and cultural context in which the passage was written. Understanding the customs, language, traditions, and beliefs of the time can shed light on the intended meaning.
3. Authorial Intent: Strive to understand the original intent of the author and the message they intended to convey to their original audience. Recognizing the author's purpose is crucial for accurate interpretation.
4. Literal Interpretation: Apply a literal interpretation when the text appears to be straightforward, historical, or factual. Literal interpretation involves taking the words in their usual and customary meaning.
5. Allegorical Interpretation: Consider allegorical interpretation when the text appears to use symbols, metaphors, or extended stories to convey deeper spiritual, moral, or philosophical truths. Allegory involves using the narrative as a symbolic representation.
6. Use of Figures of Speech: Recognize and interpret figures of speech such as similes, metaphors, hyperbole, and idiomatic expressions within their context to understand the intended meaning.
7. Consistency with the Bible: Ensure that the interpretation aligns with the broader teachings and principles found in the entire Bible. Scripture should be interpreted in harmony with itself.
8. Consult Commentaries and Scholars: Refer to reputable commentaries, academic resources, and scholarly interpretations to gain insights and perspectives on challenging or complex passages.
9. Prayer and Guidance of the Holy Spirit: Seek spiritual guidance and illumination through prayer, seeking the Holy Spirit's assistance in understanding the Scriptures.
10. Applicability and Relevance: Consider how the passage applies to your life and faith, both in terms of the literal meaning and any allegorical or symbolic interpretations.

Interpreting the Bible requires a thoughtful and respectful approach, considering the various layers of meaning that the text may hold, and being open to insights from reputable scholars and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Diamond7]

I did not realize you thought the lake of fire was literal fire.

I took four teacher training classes at the Bible College. Two more classes and I could get a certificate to qualify me to be a Sunday school supernatant at any church in the country. Most of what we did was to study Jesus and how He would teach.

Gehenna was a valley near Jerusalem that had a dark history associated with idol worship and child sacrifices. In Jesus' teachings, he utilized Gehenna as a symbol of the final and eternal judgment. It's important to note that while Jesus used intense imagery to emphasize the severity of judgment, interpreting these descriptions as a literal garbage dump or a precise representation of the afterlife requires careful consideration of the literary and cultural context.

Jesus frequently used metaphorical language, parables, and symbolism to convey profound spiritual truths to his audience. Understanding the symbolic nature of these teachings is crucial to grasp the deeper meanings of Jesus' message.

In Isaiah, there are references to the Valley of Hinnom, which is likely associated with the imagery that later came to be related to Gehenna. The Valley of Hinnom was historically a place near Jerusalem with a dark past linked to idol worship and child sacrifice.

In Isaiah 66:24 (NIV), the prophet uses strong imagery to depict the consequences of disobedience and rebellion against God:

"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

 

[sunlover1]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

​

How long will forever last when the last day is finished? How do we measure time after the last day?

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.​

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."​

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Many Christians today think so. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing. It has never been at any time in church history. There have always been some other views such as annihilationism.

Some Christians argue for conscious torment for a finite period of time. In any case, I'm not the judge of people's eternal destination. I know that Jesus died for all my sins and I have eternal life in Christ.

Whatever will happen to the unbelievers, I rest in God that he will do the right thing—whatever that may be.

See also Eternal punishment vs eternal life

And has He not said it?
Shall He not do it?
Is it even up to Him?
Or hasn't He already laid that at the feet of all who choose against Him?

Sad subject :/

 

[CoreyD]

I took four teacher training classes at the Bible College. Two more classes and I could get a certificate to qualify me to be a Sunday school supernatant at any church in the country. Most of what we did was to study Jesus and how He would teach.

Gehenna was a valley near Jerusalem that had a dark history associated with idol worship and child sacrifices. In Jesus' teachings, he utilized Gehenna as a symbol of the final and eternal judgment. It's important to note that while Jesus used intense imagery to emphasize the severity of judgment, interpreting these descriptions as a literal garbage dump or a precise representation of the afterlife requires careful consideration of the literary and cultural context.

Jesus frequently used metaphorical language, parables, and symbolism to convey profound spiritual truths to his audience. Understanding the symbolic nature of these teachings is crucial to grasp the deeper meanings of Jesus' message.

In Isaiah, there are references to the Valley of Hinnom, which is likely associated with the imagery that later came to be related to Gehenna. The Valley of Hinnom was historically a place near Jerusalem with a dark past linked to idol worship and child sacrifice.

In Isaiah 66:24 (NIV), the prophet uses strong imagery to depict the consequences of disobedience and rebellion against God:

"And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind."

Acts 4:13
When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus.

I very much appreciate being schooled by Jesus.
If you know how Jesus teaches today, I think the first three statements won't matter all all.

When Jesus fed the 5000+, he followed the same pattern he uses in teaching.
Matthew 14:19
And he directed the people to sit down on the grass. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people.

Matthew 24:45
“Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his master has set over his household, to give them their food at the proper time?

As long as we know which tables to sit at, we can be sure we will be fed the bread Jesus distributes to his faithful servant.

 

[Diamond7]

When Jesus fed the 5000+

We see that all the time when we have church dinners. There is always plenty of food. I saw a pastor once that was worried there would not be enough food to feed all the people. I knew there would be because there always is. It is not that it multiples so much as you can not diminish Gods supply for us. There is always more then enough. The more we give the more we seem to have. Sometimes I would rather give things way compared to selling them because I know God will give me more in return. Pressed down shaken together and overflowing in abundance.