Conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

[Hawkins]

Thanks for the use of scripture. Matthew 25:31-46 describes the separating of the symbolic sheep and goats.
Earlier, Jesus said :
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill the body that are not able to kill the soul; rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul and body in Gehenna [Greek γέεννα - geenna].” Matthew 10:28

Gehenna is Greek a valley South and South-West of ancient Jerusalem, called Valley of Hinnom.

The Valley of Hinnom, Gehinnom or Gehenna is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest, that has acquired various theology connotations, including as a place of divine punishment in Jewish eschatology.

I found that article an interesting and informative read.
People, have their various views, but whatever views we may have, one thing we can be sure of is this:
Both soul and body - a person's whole being - are destroyed in Gehenna.

So, this everlasting fire is obviously symbolic of everlasting destruction - as mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 regarding the wicked, and Revelation 20:14 regarding death, and the place of the dead.

I believe, once we accept this, any confusion, or potential for such, quickly dissipates.

“And I say to you my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after this there is nothing more for them to do.
But I will show you whom you should fear: that one who after he kills is authorized to cast into Gehenna; yes I say to you, be afraid of this one.”
Luke 12:4, 5​

I already mentioned that Josephus defined clearly what Hades is in his document trying to explain to the Greek aboub what Hades is. Modern sources of explanation cannot be more accurate about the Jewish concept the Jews upheld in Jesus days. More importantly, Jesus actually endorsed such a concept by making use of it, instead of refuting it.

Even to the point of sheep and goats,

Matthew 25:41:
Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

The goats are to His left, Jesus referred them as the cursed and shall be into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And in accordance to the Pharisaic concept (not only conveyed by Jesus but literally conveyed by historian Josephus as well), the eternal fire is literally eternal.

You are actually arguing against the concept of Josephus, the concept of the Jews back then and the concept of Jesus Himself.

 

[CoreyD]

You are actually arguing against the concept of Josephus, the concept of the Jews back then and the concept of Jesus Himself.

That would be the case, only if the concept of immortality of the soul were true, and death and the place of the dead were to be tormented. However, since neither is the case, I think I understand Jesus' use of fire in a figurative way, in the way that those he wants to understand, would understand.

Matthew 13:10-16
10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.
13 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14 And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
15 For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.’
16 But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

 

[Mark Quayle]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

​

How long will forever last when the last day is finished? How do we measure time after the last day?

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.​

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."​

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Many Christians today think so. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing. It has never been at any time in church history. There have always been some other views such as annihilationism.

Some Christians argue for conscious torment for a finite period of time. In any case, I'm not the judge of people's eternal destination. I know that Jesus died for all my sins and I have eternal life in Christ.

Whatever will happen to the unbelievers, I rest in God that he will do the right thing—whatever that may be.

See also Eternal punishment vs eternal life

Admittedly, it is speculation that the term, "eternal," and its kind, are words used to convey the best representation our minds can put into one word for the context of final condemnation.

I like to think that the question is one of intensity, rather than of time. But even in saying that, I am still using human conceptualization. But I would direct the reader to consider, if time has ended, and if what God spoke into fact, (God's purpose for creating), is accomplished, is it possible that it be no longer action, such as passage of time would imply, but fact— a matter of what KIND OF THING it is to be condemned?

To me, it seems rather curious that

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said:
The lake of fire being literal - eternal fire (eternal as in - its source is from God who is eternal) - that not only punishes the wicked and then "destroys both body and soul" Matt 10:28 at its conclusion - but also wipes out all life on Earth , consumes the surface of the Earth, the atmosphere and all the junk we have orbiting the planet - then on this same planet reformats and God creates a new Earth as Rev 21 says - is a reasonable "natural" reading of a lot of the details that you find in Rev 20 and 21. In rev 20 fire comes down out of God and devours the wicked.

Mal4:3 "the wicked will be ashes under the soles of your feet" - fits the scenario above after the lake of fire event concludes and after the New Earth is created . It fits the Bible concept that the wicked do not get eternal life not even "eternal poor-quality life"

I did not realize you thought the lake of fire was literal fire.
Why do you believe that? Do you believe the wild beast is literal?

In Rev 20 God is real, saints are real, death is real, second death is real, resurrection in Rev 20:1-5 is real, judgment is real, the lake of fire is real in Rev 20. The fact that some symbols exist that stand for other "real things" does not remove those things that are literal and real.

Notice this in the book of Jude -
Jude 1: 6 And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling place, these He has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The fire was supernatural, from God, eternal fire... yet it was also real , it destroyed real cities.

2 Pet 2:6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example of what is coming for the ungodly; 7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the perverted conduct of unscrupulous people 8 (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from a trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,

 

[BobRyan]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

indeed - torment in fire and brimstone is pretty real

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

​

How long will forever last when the last day is finished? How do we measure time after the last day?

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

Maybe we should ask the "pelican and hedgehog" about it.

Is 34:
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of retribution for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be extinguished night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;
None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
...
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Weeds and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And a habitat of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The goat also will cry to its kind.
Yes, the night-bird will settle there
And will find herself a resting place.
15 The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggs there,
And it will hatch and gather them under its protection.
Yes, the hawks will be gathered there,
Every one with its kind.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

good question.

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.​

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."​

1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

Is 66:
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

Mal 4:3 You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the Lord of hosts.

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

good point

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

That would be "infinite torment for all"

What does Luke 12 say?

46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

Many vs few -- as opposed to "infinite for all"

 

[BibleLinguist]

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”How long will forever last when the last day is finished? How do we measure time after the last day?

Smoke comes from something that has already burned and is gone.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:
8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

There is no consciousness in death. "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence." (Psalm 115:17). "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 9:5-6).

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:
14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.
Matthew 10:
28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."

Something destroyed does not still remain.

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:
53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

There will be no such thing as infinite conscious torment. The wages of sin is death according to Romans 6:23.

The Bible starts off with the word Beginning. If time were infinite there would be no beginning.

Translated correctly from the Hebrew, the Bible starts off by saying, "In the beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form and void, ...." So the text is specifically addressing the beginning of earth's creation--not of God, the universe, time, or anything else. Unfortunately, the KJV translators didn't quite get it right, and other versions have followed suit.

While the lake of fire is called "the second death" twice Rev 20:14, Rev 21:8, no vs. says that anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies. Rev 20:10 says the beast, the devil and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die they are tormented for ever and ever.

I wonder if the word translated as "tormented" in Revelation 20:10 might be more suitably translated as "examined." Apparently, that is one of the possible meanings of the word, albeit the KJV did not do so. In the KJV, this Greek word appears as tormented, tossed, toiling, vexed, pained, etc. In any case, based on other passages by which we know that the sinners will die/perish, it cannot be true that they are tormented forever with a conscious existence.

I use Strongs, even before we had computers to study the original language. I like to use Bible Hub for all the different translations.

I have used Strong's for a long time as well. It disgusted me a bit to learn that the name has been used for the newer editions of "Strong's Concordance" in which many of the word definitions in the lexicon have changed, er...been updated. New theology starts with new definitions. Reader beware.

Is it conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

No.

To me the evidence is inconclusive so I choose not to establish any doctrines on the subject either way. I don’t think it’s important for us to know whether the punishment is eternal or not, I think the reason these passages are included is to give us an incentive for turning to Christ to avoid this outcome. Either way neither of these two punishments are desirable by anyone.

If you find it still inconclusive, a little more study might be worthwhile. For most people, it is of paramount importance because they cannot see light in loving a so-called "God of love" who has such little compassion as to torture people forever. Actually, when the punishments are meted out, even the wicked will see God as just in destroying them, and they will know that this destruction will save them from living a miserable eternal existence, for they could never be happy among God's people--it is not in their nature.

 

[tonychanyt]

Admittedly, it is speculation that the term, "eternal," and its kind, are words used to convey the best representation our minds can put into one word for the context of final condemnation.

I understand eternal life as life beyond the current physical time. The nature of time will change at the second coming to a spiritual time, i.e., the time axis of the spiritual dimension, whatever that means

 

[BNR32FAN]

If you find it still inconclusive, a little more study might be worthwhile. For most people, it is of paramount importance because they cannot see light in loving a so-called "God of love" who has such little compassion as to torture people forever. Actually, when the punishments are meted out, even the wicked will see God as just in destroying them, and they will know that this destruction will save them from living a miserable eternal existence, for they could never be happy among God's people--it is not in their nature.

It’s not really important to me because I understand that either way God is just in His decision. Annihilation would definitely be an act of mercy and if eternal torment is what God has decided then I trust that He has a perfectly good reason for doing it that I don’t know about yet. Either way I’m just glad it has nothing to do with me PTL!

 

[Diamond72]

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever

Forever and ever is not really a good translation. The word is Ages. So a possible translation could be that the smoke of their torment rises up before God until the end of the ages, plural. Because the is more than one age or era. Some say until the end of time when time will be nor more. But the modern translations have changed this to say there shall be no more delay. This is why people are KJV only.

 

[Diamond72]

I understand eternal life as life beyond the current physical time.

Time means decay and we are told there will be no more corruption or decay. Even this is what the carbon test is all about. To measure how much decay has taken place to determine the age of something.

 

[BNR32FAN]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

​

How long will forever last when the last day is finished? How do we measure time after the last day?

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.​

The above are pretty strong passages to support forever torment.

On the other hand, Revelation 21:

8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”​

Does second death imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Concerning the wicked, Isaiah 26:

14 They are now dead, they live no more; their spirits do not rise. You punished them and brought them to ruin; you wiped out all memory of them.​

Matthew 10:

28 "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]."​

Only God is immortal. Believers possess immortality because they have the Paraclete. Non-believers do not have the Paraclete. They are not immortal, 1 Corinthians 15:

53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.​

Does hell imply conscious torment over an infinite period of time?

Many Christians today think so. To me, eternal conscious torment isn't a 100% sure thing. It has never been at any time in church history. There have always been some other views such as annihilationism.

Some Christians argue for conscious torment for a finite period of time. In any case, I'm not the judge of people's eternal destination. I know that Jesus died for all my sins and I have eternal life in Christ.

Whatever will happen to the unbelievers, I rest in God that he will do the right thing—whatever that may be.

See also Eternal punishment vs eternal life

Like I said there’s evidence supporting annihilation and eternal torment. We can’t dismiss either possibility.

 

[Diamond72]

e beginning of God's creating of the heavens and the earth,

The Bible says Beginning Created God. "In the" was added in the translation for clarity.

The law of first mention says that, to understand a particular word or doctrine, we must find the first place in Scripture that word or doctrine is revealed and study that passage. The reasoning is that the Bible’s first mention of a concept is the simplest and clearest presentation; doctrines are then more fully developed on that foundation. So, to fully understand an important and complex theological concept, Bible students are advised to start with its “first mention.”

All of the Bible explains what beginning means. If the letter B is the first letter in the Bible, this represents a tent or tabernacle and God's desire to dwell with man. The rest of the word beginning talks about the sacrifice or grain offering that Jesus makes so that we can dwell with God. I always say there is nothing better than to praise, honor and worship God. Not because He needs to be worshiped but because we need to be in a state of worship and thanksgiving. Far to often prayer is more like grumbling and complaining when we are to give thanks with a grateful heart. This is the key to healing. I was so sick I could not get out of bed to go to the bathroom, but most of it was a negative attitude. So the more positive we are the more healing and health we will have,.

Not just Christians, the law of attraction people and the Buddhists and the Hindus talk about the benefit of positive energy. I have the Dalai Lama's book on: "The Art of Happiness' "achieved by reshaping our attitudes and outlook". We have the key if we want to use it.

 

[BibleLinguist]

The Bible says Beginning Created God. "In the" was added in the translation for clarity.

The law of first mention says that, to understand a particular word or doctrine, we must find the first place in Scripture that word or doctrine is revealed and study that passage. The reasoning is that the Bible’s first mention of a concept is the simplest and clearest presentation; doctrines are then more fully developed on that foundation. So, to fully understand an important and complex theological concept, Bible students are advised to start with its “first mention.”

All of the Bible explains what beginning means. If the letter B is the first letter in the Bible, this represents a tent or tabernacle and God's desire to dwell with man. The rest of the word beginning talks about the sacrifice or grain offering that Jesus makes so that we can dwell with God. I always say there is nothing better than to praise, honor and worship God. Not because He needs to be worshiped but because we need to be in a state of worship and thanksgiving. Far to often prayer is more like grumbling and complaining when we are to give thanks with a grateful heart. This is the key to healing. I was so sick I could not get out of bed to go to the bathroom, but most of it was a negative attitude. So the more positive we are the more healing and health we will have,.

Not just Christians, the law of attraction people and the Buddhists and the Hindus talk about the benefit of positive energy. I have the Dalai Lama's book on: "The Art of Happiness' "achieved by reshaping our attitudes and outlook". We have the key if we want to use it.

I have been studying Hebrew for years. To help you fully understand this would require a detailed lesson in Hebrew construct chains. The word "the" is added because if any part of a construct chain is definite, the whole chain is definite, and we have "the heavens" and "the earth" which are both definite. The reason many translators have missed this is that immediately following "bereshit" is the verb "bara," and a construct chain does not usually include a verb; however, in this case the verb is part of a larger idea, which is a noun. The word "in" is not an added word--it is explicitly there in the text. That is what the "bet" (your "letter B") prefix to "reshit" is--a prepositional prefix.

But, as I may assume, you will consider me some random guy on the internet who does not know what he's talking about. So let me refer you to Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchak, familiarly known as "Rashi." Rashi is very famous as a rabbi and scholar, and well regarded among the Jewish scholars. He essentially compiled a Bible commentary on the interpretation of the Hebrew text. His commentary on Genesis 1:1 agrees with what I am saying. In my studies of Hebrew I had deduced this interpretation before discovering that Rashi also had seen it this way.

Here you may see Rashi's commentary on Genesis 1:1 (copied below), which has been translated to English from his original Hebrew notations. I will bold the key sentence for those uninterested in the rest, and note that he is not translating exactly, but explaining the sense of meaning (he appears to neglect the first occurrence of the Hebrew "elohim," though the rest of the sentence does include it). His explanation is eye-opening, including the fact that "reshit" is always in construct state in every place in the Old Testament where it occurs.

בראשית ברא IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED — This verse calls aloud for explanation in the manner that our Rabbis explained it: God created the world for the sake of the Torah which is called (Proverbs 8:22) “The beginning (ראשית) of His (God’s) way”, and for the sake of Israel who are called (Jeremiah 2:3) “The beginning (ראשית) of His (God’s) increase’’. If, however, you wish to explain it in its plain sense, explain it thus: At the beginning of the Creation of heaven and earth when the earth was without form and void and there was darkness, God said, “Let there be light”. The text does not intend to point out the order of the acts of Creation — to state that these (heaven and earth) were created first; for if it intended to point this out, it should have written 'בראשונה ברא את השמים וגו “At first God created etc.” And for this reason: Because, wherever the word ראשית occurs in Scripture, it is in the construct state. E. g., (Jeremiah 26:1) “In the beginning of (בראשית) the reign of Jehoiakim”; (Genesis 10:10) “The beginning of (ראשית) his kingdom”; (Deuteronomy 18:4) “The first fruit of (ראשית) thy corn.” Similarly here you must translate בראשית ברא אלהים as though it read בראשית ברוא, at the beginning of God’s creating. A similar grammatical construction (of a noun in construct followed by a verb) is: (Hosea 1:2) תחלת דבר ה' בהושע, which is as much as to say, “At the beginning of God’s speaking through Hosea, the Lord said to Hosea.” Should you, however, insist that it does actually intend to point out that these (heaven and earth) were created first, and that the meaning is, “At the beginning of everything He created these, admitting therefore that the word בראשית is in the construct state and explaining the omission of a word signifying “everything” by saying that you have texts which are elliptical, omitting a word, as for example (Job 3:10) “Because it shut not up the doors of my mother’s womb” where it does not explicitly explain who it was that closed the womb; and (Isaiah 8:4) “He shall take away the spoil of Samaria” without explaining who shall take it away; and (Amos 6:12) “Doth he plough with oxen," and it does not explicitly state, “Doth a man plough with oxen”; (Isaiah 46:10) “Declaring from the beginning the end,” and it does not explicitly state, “Declaring from the beginning of a thing the end of a thing’ — if it is so (that you assert that this verse intends to point out that heaven and earth were created first), you should be astonished at yourself, because as a matter of fact the waters were created before heaven and earth, for, lo, it is written, (v. 2) “The Spirit of God was hovering on the face of the waters,” and Scripture had not yet disclosed when the creation of the waters took place — consequently you must learn from this that the creation of the waters preceded that of the earth. And a further proof that the heavens and earth were not the first thing created is that the heavens were created from fire (אש) and water (מים), from which it follows that fire and water were in existence before the heavens. Therefore you must admit that the text teaches nothing about the earlier or later sequence of the acts of Creation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have been studying Hebrew for years. To help you fully understand this would require a detailed lesson in Hebrew construct chains. The word "the" is added because if any part of a construct chain is definite, the whole chain is definite, and we have "the heavens" and "the earth" which are both definite. The reason many translators have missed this is that immediately following "bereshit" is the verb "bara," and a construct chain does not usually include a verb; however, in this case the verb is part of a larger idea, which is a noun. The word "in" is not an added word--it is explicitly there in the text. That is what the "bet" (your "letter B") prefix to "reshit" is--a prepositional prefix.

But, as I may assume, you will consider me some random guy on the internet who does not know what he's talking about. So let me refer you to Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzchak, familiarly known as "Rashi." Rashi is very famous as a rabbi and scholar, and well regarded among the Jewish scholars. He essentially compiled a Bible commentary on the interpretation of the Hebrew text. His commentary on Genesis 1:1 agrees with what I am saying. In my studies of Hebrew I had deduced this interpretation before discovering that Rashi also had seen it this way.

Here you may see Rashi's commentary on Genesis 1:1 (copied below), which has been translated to English from his original Hebrew notations. I will bold the key sentence for those uninterested in the rest, and note that he is not translating exactly, but explaining the sense of meaning (he appears to neglect the first occurrence of the Hebrew "elohim," though the rest of the sentence does include it). His explanation is eye-opening, including the fact that "reshit" is always in construct state in every place in the Old Testament where it occurs.

Well I wouldn’t expect too much from his seminary education since apparently they never taught what Gnosticism is. I’m no seminary student but I would expect that at some point Adversus Haereses would’ve been a required study.

 

[Der Alte]

Smoke comes from something that has already burned and is gone.

Unless God decrees otherwise. God is NOT bound by our limited understanding. Remember the bush that burned but was not consumed? Remember the fire that did not harm Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?
Pleased note nothing you have posted addresses the 24 vss. I exegeted above.

There will be no such thing as infinite conscious torment. The wages of sin is death according to Romans 6:23.

The words of Paul, in one vs, do NOT supersede the words of The Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, I quoted above.

I wonder if the word translated as "tormented" in Revelation 20:10 might be more suitably translated as "examined." Apparently, that is one of the possible meanings of the word, albeit the KJV did not do so.

Quite evidently you are mistaken. Here is the definition of the word from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker one of, if not, the best Greek lexicons available. "Examined" is NOT one of the meanings.

βασανίζω impf. ἐβασάνιζον; fut. 3 sg. βασανίσει Sir 4:19 and βασανιεῖ 2 Macc 7:17; 1 aor. ἐβασάνισα. Pass.: 1 fut. βασανισθήσομαι; 1 aor. pass. ἐβασανίσθην (s. βάσανος; Pre-Socr.+) prim. ‘put to a test, prove’.​

① to subject to punitive judicial procedure, torture (Thu. 8, 92, 2; Chariton 4, 3, 2; BGU 1847, 16; PAnt 87, 13; 2 Macc 7:13; 4 Macc 6:5 al.; Jos., Ant. 2, 105; 16, 232) MPol 2:2; used on slaves (Antiphon 2, 4, 8; POxy 903, 10) 6:1.​

② to subject to severe distress, torment, harass​

ⓐ harass (Maximus Tyr. 11, 2a βασανίζειν τὸν χρυσὸν ἐν πυρί =torture the gold with fire [in the smelting process]) πλοῖον βασανιζόμενον ὑπὸ τῶν κυμάτων a boat harassed by the waves Mt 14:24; cp. Mk 6:48 they had rough going in the waves or they were straining (at the oars?) to make headway. Synon. τυμπανίζω. In these pass. the lit. component dominates, in b and c the metaphorical.​

ⓑ mostly physical: in diseases (Lucian, Soloec. 6 censures this use; Jos., Ant. 9, 101; 12, 413; POxyHels 46, 19 [I/II A.D.]) Mt 8:6. Of birth-pangs (Anth. Pal. 9, 311 βάσανος has this mng.) Rv 12:2. Of Jesus as threat to evil spirits ἦλθες βασανίσαι ἡμᾶς; Mt 8:29; cp. Mk 5:7; Lk 8:28. Of prophetic testimony as source of annoyance Rv 11:10.—9:5; 14:10; 20:10; GPt 4:14; Hv 3, 7, 6; Hs 6, 4, 1f; 4; 6, 5, 3f; 6.​

ⓒ essentially affective IEph 8:1; ἑαυτόν torment oneself Hs 9, 9, 3 (Epict. 2, 22, 35; Philo, Deus Imm. 102). For this τὴν ἑαυτοῦ ψυχήν (TestAsh 6:5 ἡ ψυχὴ βασανίζεται) m 4, 2, 2 (w. ταπεινοῦν); ψυχὴν δικαίαν ἀνόμοις ἔργοις ἐβασάνιζεν (Lot) felt his upright soul tormented by the lawless deeds (of the Sodomites) 2 Pt 2:8 (s. Harnack, Beitr. VII 1916, 105f).—M-M. DELG s.v. βάσανος. TW.​

βασανισμός, οῦ, ὁ (s. βασανίζω; Al​

William Arndt et al., A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2000), 168.​

I have used Strong's for a long time as well. It disgusted me a bit to learn that the name has been used for the newer editions of "Strong's Concordance" in which many of the word definitions in the lexicon have changed, er...been updated. New theology starts with new definitions. Reader beware.

I don't rely on Strong's see BAGD above.

No.
If you find it still inconclusive, a little more study might be worthwhile. For most people, it is of paramount importance because they cannot see light in loving a so-called "God of love" who has such little compassion as to torture people forever. Actually, when the punishments are meted out, even the wicked will see God as just in destroying them, and they will know that this destruction will save them from living a miserable eternal existence, for they could never be happy among God's people--it is not in their nature.

I have a master's in Theology. I have been an active pastor since 1966. Nothing you have said here addresses or minimizes anything in my posts above.

John 3:15​

(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. ζωὴν αἰώνιον​

John 3:16​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. ζωὴν αἰώνιον​

Using the words of scripture alone. In these 2 vss, Jesus defines everlasting life. ζωὴν αἰώνιον as "shall not perish," twice. There are 22 more vss. which define "aionios" as eternal in my previous posts which you have ignored. Not my words but the words of the Father, Jesus and the disciples.

 

[Mercy Shown]

On the one hand, Revelation 14:

10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.​

It seems strange that the Lamb should be present to watch them being tormented forever and ever.

11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”​

​

How long will forever last when the last day is finished? How do we measure time after the last day?

This is an interesting topic that raises more questions than it answers. On the one hand, it seems to teach that everyone has eternal life, either negatively or positively. Yet in Romans, we read that the wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life. So which is correct? Jesus, when describing hell, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, described heaven and hell so close together that one could yell across the gulf to each other; however, in another place, He said that both the body and the soul would be destroyed in hell. Of course, one was a parable, and the other was not.

To complicate matters even more, we can't be sure what the Bible means by "eternal fire." One would think it meant a fire that burned eternally, but in the Book of Jude, Sodom, and Gomorrah were "set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." One possibility is that "eternal" could refer to the effects of the fire since neither Sodom nor Gomorrah are still burning, but neither are they still here.

I find it curious that in Rev 14:11, the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever instead of the torment itself. I was standing watching the smoke rise up from the burning fields in central Florida, and my daughter was standing beside me, craning her neck backward, watching the billowing clouds of smoke inking their way up and out of sight. She finally told me, "Dad, that smoke goes up forever." Maybe that is what John saw in His vision. Who knows?

 

[BibleLinguist]

Remember the bush that burned but was not consumed?

Yes. Did you see anything in that passage about smoke coming from the bush?

Remember the fire that did not harm Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego?

Again, since they did not burn, there was no smoke from them. In fact, the text tells us that not even the smell of smoke ("fire") was upon them.

"And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them." (Daniel 3:27)​

​

The words of Paul, in one vs, do NOT supersede the words of The Father, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, I quoted above.

Apparently your "above" quote is the one I have copied below.

I am retired X3 one might say that this is my primary activity. After reading many objections proclaiming that the Greek word "aionios never means eternal." I decided to review every occurrence of "aionios" in the NT.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 71x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
“aionios” is never translated “age(s)”
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer anything common, ordinary, mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses. Below are the first 4 vss. in the list.
[1]Luke 1:33(33) And he shall reign [basileusei [Vb.] over the house of Jacob for ever; [αιωνας/aionas] and of his kingdom [basileias, [Nn.] there shall be no end.[telos]In this verse the reign/basileusei, the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal, no end.
[2] John 6:58(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[aionios] In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “live aionios” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite age, a finite period life is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
[3]John 3:15(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.[4] John 3:16(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
The second part of this study where Peter, Paul and John defined "aionios" as "eternal."
Romans 5:21, Ephesians 3:21, Romans 1:20, Romans 16:26, 2 Cor 4:17-18, 2 Cor 5:1, 1 Tim 6:16, Gal 6:8, Rom 2:7, 1 Tim 1:17, Rom 5:21, Eph 3:21, Rom 6:23, Gal 6:8, Heb 7:24, 1 Pet 1:23, 1 Pet 5:10, Rev 14:11,

You are addressing the Greek word "aionios," which is fine. But that's not the word I was addressing. You seem eager to find a disagreement with me, but perhaps we are not disagreeing on this point. I am not one of the posters in this thread arguing against "aionios" meaning "forever."

Quite evidently you are mistaken. Here is the definition of the word from Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich and Danker one of, if not, the best Greek lexicons available. "Examined" is NOT one of the meanings.

Look at this screenshot:

I looked first in Strong's and did not find this there, then went to my "Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament" and found that the word is related to a touchstone used to test metals. And this is actually the first definition given, i.e. "1. prop. to test (metals) by the touchstone." Thayer's lexicon is well known and quite well regarded, as I understand.

Using the words of scripture alone. In these 2 vss, Jesus defines everlasting life. ζωὴν αἰώνιον as "shall not perish," twice. There are 22 more vss. which define "aionios" as eternal in my previous posts which you have ignored. Not my words but the words of the Father, Jesus and the disciples.

Again, I have not been addressing "aionios." Claiming I have ignored something simply because I was talking about something else is not beneficial to anyone in this discussion. I do not disagree with you on that point, so perhaps now you can advance to the point I was considering.

 

[Diamond72]

To complicate matters even more, we can't be sure what the Bible means by "eternal fire."

Lots of contradictions. Zechariah 13:9 tells us"This third I will put into the fire; I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, ‘They are my people,’ and they will say, ‘The LORD is our God.’”

So a third of the people are purified by fire and two thirds are destroyed by fire. But destroyed does not mean destroyed. I tend to be an annihilationist and believe that God will not allow any ungodlyness. Of course it all comes down to what does it mean that the lake of fire is the second death?

John Wesley believed that the elements that make us up are dedicated to us and can not be used by anyone or anything else. If we are eaten by a shark the shark can use whatever energy is stored in our body but we can not be consumed and would pass through the shark. Of course the issues centers around satin's desire to for creation to destroy itself.

 

[Diamond72]

He said that both the body and the soul would be destroyed in hell

Destroy means to perish and to come to nothing. They will be remembered no more as if they had never existed. People can choose love and they can choose not to love. We are constantly making choices in life. There is a right and a wrong choice and life is always the right choice to make.

Those who perish will be the first to tell you that they are going to perish and come to nothing. The increase of disorder or entropy is what distinguishes the past from the future, giving a direction to time. We are told in Revelation 21 1 "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea."

We are to love our enemy. So I would like to be a universalist. But that is not what the Bible teaches. In fact the Bible is plain and clear that only a third will survive by fire. Two thirds will perish and will be no more as if they had never been. Isaiah 41:12 "Though you search for your enemies, you will not find them. Those who wage war against you will be as nothing at all."

Job 20:7
he will perish forever, like his own dung; those who had seen him will ask, 'Where is he?'

Psalm 37:36
yet he passed away and was no more; though I searched, he could not be found.

I would like to be a universalist but I am a annihilationist because i believe that is what the Bible teachers if you study the word destory in the Bible>

 

[Mercy Shown]

Destroy means to perish and to come to nothing. They will be remembered no more as if they had never existed. People can choose love and they can choose not to love. We are constantly making choices in life. There is a right and a wrong choice and life is always the right choice to make.

Those who perish will be the first to tell you that they are going to perish and come to nothing. The increase of disorder or entropy is what distinguishes the past from the future, giving a direction to time. We are told in Revelation 21 1 "Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea."

We are to love our enemy. So I would like to be a universalist. But that is not what the Bible teaches. In fact the Bible is plain and clear that only a third will survive by fire. Two thirds will perish and will be no more as if they had never been. Isaiah 41:12 "Though you search for your enemies, you will not find them. Those who wage war against you will be as nothing at all."

Job 20:7
he will perish forever, like his own dung; those who had seen him will ask, 'Where is he?'

Psalm 37:36
yet he passed away and was no more; though I searched, he could not be found.

I would like to be a universalist but I am a annihilationist because i believe that is what the Bible teachers if you study the word destory in the Bible>

I can see that point of view. How do you deal with the passages in Revelation?