Confused about the commandment that was "abolished." (2)

[tall73]

Why were the 10 commandments written in stone?

Likely as a covenant document in a Suzerainty covenant in which God was the Suzerain and the children of Israel were the redeemed people who pledged to keep His requirements.

In similar covenants where a king would conquer a people he would make a record of his demands and they would keep a copy both in the temple of his god and of theirs.

In this case God is the King and His temple was where He dwelt among His own people so the record of the covenant was kept in the inner sanctuary of His people.

God was putting it in terms they would get.

We see a number of elements of the Suzerainty covenant, such as the covenant document, the agreement to follow His commands, the covenant curses and blessings which defined the outcome of their choices under the covenant.

This fits with what the text says about the ten commandments. They were the words of the covenant.

Exo_34:28 So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.

So the covenant agreement document, the words of the covenant, spoken by God Himself before the people were put in the heart of His Sanctuary where He dwelt among them as their sovereign. It defined their relationship and made clear His demands.

God met with them above the cherubim above the mercy seat. The covenant document was in the ark, above which He would meet with them, it was to put it in modern terms, the seat of His government, and they were the foundational document.

He went on to add additional requirements which were also placed NEXT TO the ark, but these were not the specific words spoken by God during the covenant agreement at Sinai.

 

[tall73]

At the heart of this covenant document was the sign between God and His people Israel, the sabbath.

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


The sabbath was a sign with the covenant people, a sign between God and Israel.

 

[tall73]

That's why Christian homosexuals often ignore what the Bible says and strive to justify their actions. But deep down they know they are in sin.

They would not know it from the ten commandments however, but from Leviticus 18, Romans 1, etc.


Lev 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.

 

[tall73]

Because a proper examination of the Bible reveals that there is a moral law and a ceremonial law. One was written on paper, the other was written on stone. Why?

Please state the text that tells you one is moral and one is ceremonial.

Can you clarify. Were there not moral laws for the Jewish people OUTSIDE of the ten?

 

[Leuko Petra]

tall73, could you please state, for clarification and for the record, at least for me, what position you hold to in regards to the 4th Commandment as found in Exodus 20:8-11?

A brief response would be helpful, thank you.

 

[tall73]

Lol. Obviously.

In case your in doubt, Love God and Love thy neighbor are the "10", so hated by the ones against God.

No, they are not. They are a quote from that same non-stone law that some are saying is "ceremonial"

Deu_6:5 You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Lev_19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD.

And you have the relationship backwards.

Mat 22:36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
Mat 22:37 And he said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the great and first commandment.
Mat 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments depend all the Law and the Prophets."

All of the law and prophets hang on these two commands, these over-arching principles. The ten are ONE specific expression of these two overarching commands, as part of the covenant document with Israel.



These two do not summarize the 10. The ten, and all the rest of the law HANG on these.

They flow from these two commands.

 

[tall73]

tall73, could you please state, for clarification and for the record, at least for me, what position you hold to in regards to the 4th Commandment as found in Exodus 20:8-11?

A brief response would be helpful, thank you.

A. I think it was given at the heart of the "words of the covenant" as a "sign" with the people of Israel.

B. I think in Acts 21 the Jewish believers in Jersualem which was zealous for the law went right on keeping it, along with the rest of the law.

C. I think that those who wish to keep it and gain a blessing from it may do so.

D. I do not believe it is required for all Christians.




However, I have believed the opposite before. I continue to study. There is a lot of evidence to consider on the Sabbath question.

 

[Leuko Petra]

A. I think it was given at the heart of the "words of the covenant" as a "sign" with the people of Israel.

B. I think in Acts 21 the Jewish believers in Jersualem which was zealous for the law went right on keeping it, along with the rest of the law.

C. I think that those who wish to keep it and gain a blessing from it may do so.

D. I do not believe it is required for all Christians.

However, I have believed the opposite before. I continue to study. There is a lot of evidence to consider on the Sabbath question.

OK, if people, whomever they are today, are able to "keep it" [Holy???] "and gain a blessing", do you think the Sabbath of the LORD is still the 7th Day? or some other day, or anyday? Do you believe it is required for "some" Christians if not "all"?

 

[TruthWarrior]

Can you please explain something about this text?

Rom 2:12 For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
Rom 2:13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
Rom 2:15 They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
Rom 2:16 on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

Certainly the conscience of gentiles convicts them about a number of sins such as theft, murder, etc. However, was Paul really referring to gentiles spontaneously keeping the Sabbath or Day of Atonement, etc.?

He says that they do by nature what the law requires based on the heart and conscience. We simply don't see mass populations of gentiles spontaneously being convicted to keep a memorial that many of them knew nothing about. Even if you are aware of some individuals who came to this realization, that does not equal a widespread recognition through the conscience.

A lot of it comes down to common sense. If God did not intend for the Sabbath to be permanent He wouldn't have wrote it as one of the ten commandments. Keep in mind that God blessed and made holy the seventh day at creation, long before the Jews existed. Many gentiles also feel no conviction making idols, yet making idols is breaking the 2nd commandment. If you ask a group of Christians why they neglect Sabbath keeping they will give you a load of different answers. Their justification is based on very ambiguous scriptures that contradicts common sense and logic. If it's a sin for Christians to break the 10 commandments, this would also include the Sabbath.

 

[TruthWarrior]

At the heart of this covenant document was the sign between God and His people Israel, the sabbath.

Exo 31:13 "You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, 'Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the LORD, sanctify you.
Exo 31:14 You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy for you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Exo 31:15 Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death.
Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"
Exo 31:18 And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.


The sabbath was a sign with the covenant people, a sign between God and Israel.

He also gave the other nine commandments to Israel. Are Christians free to break those as well?

 

[tall73]

OK, if people, whomever they are today, are able to "keep it" [Holy???] "and gain a blessing", do you think the Sabbath of the LORD is still the 7th Day? or some other day, or anyday? Do you believe it is required for "some" Christians if not "all"?

The sabbath is still the 7th day.

There is no scriptural change of day.

I think the Jewish believers kept keeping it, however, I do not see that gentile Christians were required to.

 

[tall73]

A lot of it comes down to common sense. If God did not intend for the Sabbath to be permanent He wouldn't have wrote it as one of the ten commandments.

That is not in fact common sense to me.

There are a number of moral principles in the rest of the law I would consider permanent, such as those addressing sexual immorality, etc. And I am not sure that the sign given to Israel was permanent for anyone else. It was part of the "words of the covenant" which is what the Bible calls the stone record. It is therefore directly tied to that covenant.

Keep in mind that God blessed and made holy the seventh day at creation, long before the Jews existed.

I am not sure that actually follows either.

The book of Genesis was written with a Jewish audience in mind, and from their perspective. There is no reference to man keeping sabbath in the garden, God rested from His creative works. The sabbath command certainly refers to the cessation of work on the 7th day. However, a number of folks see the blessing of the Sabbath day as a later event which is referred to by Moses in the creation account.

Notice other references to later events in Genesis:

Gen 3:20 The man called his wife's name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

This is presented in the context of the fall of man, but clearly at that time she was not the mother of all the living as this was prior to the birth of her first children which does not happen until chapter 4.

A more dramatic example, and better parallel is the reference to Kings of Israel.

Gen 36:30 Dishon, Ezer, and Dishan; these are the chiefs of the Horites, chief by chief in the land of Seir.
Gen 36:31 These are the kings who reigned in the land of Edom, before any king reigned over the Israelites.

This comment refers to historical kings over Israel, yet this event recorded is long before the monarchy period, and in fact Moses' time itself was before the monarchy by quite a stretch. The book is giving history, but from the perspective of the Israelites, and relating parts that they would get in their own terms.



The sabbath was expressly said to be a sign between God and the children of Israel.

Exo 31:16 Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever.
Exo 31:17 It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.'"

It is a sign with Israel that they remember the Creator.

 

[Leuko Petra]

The sabbath is still the 7th day.

There is no scriptural change of day.

I think the Jewish believers kept keeping it, however, I do not see that gentile Christians were required to.

Ok, that is helpful. Thank you.

In the Commandment itself [Exodus 20:8-11], why would God also include animals and "the stranger", (vs 10) if it is not also to include the gentiles?

Why would God say that there was to be "one Law"?

One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. Exodus 12:49

One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you. Numbers 15:16

Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God. Leviticus 24:22

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Isaiah 56:6

What is the context of Isaiah 56?

In Acts 14:15, what is Paul/Barnabas asking the Gentiles to do?

And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Acts 14:15

Isn't that Exodus 20:11 langauge?

Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. Acts 15:16

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Acts 17:30

 

[tall73]

Many gentiles also feel no conviction making idols, yet making idols is breaking the 2nd commandment. If you ask a group of Christians why they neglect Sabbath keeping they will give you a load of different answers.

Actually the Bible makes very plain that God did leave a testimony to Himself, and that man descended into idolatry due to their wickedness.

This is in the same context as the passage you referenced, the passage starting in Romans 1 and going to 3:20 in which Paul is recounting all as under sin.

Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

And a good number of gentiles have come to the conclusion that statues and images are not going to help them.

No such rationale is given to explain the Sabbath. And there is no element of the conscience that dictates it.

Moreover, you talk about moral and ceremonial law, yet the very nature of the Sabbath command is a MEMORIAL, which is not the same as the other moral requirements.

The Sabbath command is very much ceremonial.

For instance if someone asks you the sacrifices required on the Sabbath, you can answer from the law. It is a memorial, similar to the passover in that regard.

Now, that is not to say that if God commands it you are any less under punishment for not following God's command. The issue is whether He required gentiles to keep it.

Their justification is based on very ambiguous scriptures that contradicts common sense and logic. If it's a sin for Christians to break the 10 commandments, this would also include the Sabbath.

You just switched topics. The topic was the passage in Romans 2 regarding the gentiles who kept the righteous requirements. However we don't see them spontaneously keeping Sabbath or the Day of Atonement based on conscience. However, we do see them regarding moral principles.

 

[tall73]

Ok, that is helpful. Thank you.

In the Commandment itself [Exodus 20:8-11], why would God also include animals and "the stranger", (vs 10) if it is not also to include the gentiles?

Because they were in the land of the covenant. It was the strangers in their gates.

Why would God say that there was to be "one Law"?

One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you. Exodus 12:49

One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you. Numbers 15:16

Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God. Leviticus 24:22

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Isaiah 56:6

Because those who lived in Israel were bound by the laws given to Israel.

And that is just the issue in Acts 15. Previously if one joined Himself to God it involved joining themselves to Israel, and the law of Israel.

The council did not find that gentiles were required to keep all these things. Peter noted that the spirit came on them, just the same as on the Jews.

Notice, the issue in Acts 15 was not whether the Jewish believers would stop keeping the law. Why would they? The law pointed to Jesus and would point their fellow Jews to Him.

In Acts 14:15, what is Paul/Barnabas asking the Gentiles to do?

And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein: Acts 14:15'''';

He is asking them to turn to their true Creator and away from the notion that the people worship Paul and his companion as Hermes and Zeus. The people were about to offer sacrifices to them. No mention is in fact made of the Sabbath.

Isn't that Exodus 20:11 langauge?

Or Psalm 146 language, which does not make reference to the Sabbath:

Psa 146:5 Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God,
Psa 146:6 who made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, who keeps faith forever;

The claim of God as Creator is pervasive, and applies to all.

However, the sabbath was given as a sign between God and Israel.

Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. Acts 15:16

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Acts 17:30

Yes, indeed. And who didn't bind the law on the gentiles. Notice your text says nothing about sabbath keeping.

 

[tall73]

I am trying to understand your position. By eternal do you mean that they never had a beginning, or do you simply mean that once given they don't fade away?

Still waiting on clarification.

 

[tall73]

I have not been following the whole conversation to this point, though I have been looking in occasionally. I don't have tons of time but wanted to understand a few things about your perspective.


Do you hold that we should keep the whole Mosaic law or just the ten?

Still waiting on clarification

 

[Leuko Petra]

...

Looks like her vision was right.

 

[tall73]

He also gave the other nine commandments to Israel.

Now you are catching on! He also gave them other commands on oaths, and commands on sexual immorality, and the two great commands.

It was not just the ten. And some of those other are "moral"

Are Christians free to break those as well?

Free to break the moral principles that undergird the specific giving of the law to Israel? No. Because morality didn't change.

However, the Sabbath is a sign with Israel. It is a memorial for them, not a lasting moral principle.

The law and the prophets HANG on the great commandments. They are a specific giving of moral principles to Israel in their context.

The gentiles are not under the specific covenant law given to Israel. Yet they are not free from moral principles or commands of God.

And we see a great number of moral imperatives in the NT.

And at times Paul would use the law to teach moral principles:

1Ti 1:5 The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.
1Ti 1:6 Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion,
1Ti 1:7 desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions.
1Ti 1:8 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
1Ti 1:9 understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,
1Ti 1:10 the sexually immoral, men who practice homosexuality, enslavers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine,
1Ti 1:11 in accordance with the gospel of the glory of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.


The law pointed out a number of moral imperatives that were still quite valid.

Notice it lists homosexuality. That is not dealt with in the ten. It is dealt with in Leviticus. Was that less moral because it was not in the ten? No.

And that principle still applies for the Christians as Paul points out.

 

[tall73]

Paul clearly teaches that those who are unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God:

Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice he again lists some that correspond to the ten, but others outside the ten. They are all still moral principles.

So you cannot divide the law in to the ten "moral" and the rest "ceremonial". It doesn't fit the evidence. There were moral commands outside the ten. And there was one "ceremonial" law, a sign, and a memorial, within the ten. The ten commandments

Yet, for those it was commanded of, it meant death not to do it. In that sense to them all the law was moral.