Confused about the commandment that was "abolished." (2)

[tzadik]

The whole new testament talks about salvation and Paul himself equates it at the cross not before it. Imputed righteousness isn't the same as the righteousness delivered... imputed means promised later.

SO have you received everything you've been promised already?

Or are you, like Abraham and MOses also waiting for this:

19. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
20. and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
21. whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

 

[MoreCoffee]

AH...classic.

Are you able to define "My Law" from Jeremiah's context and perspective, staying true to the text?

I did before. It is the law of God. Not the ten commandments - which are time-culture-and-liturgy bound.

It's the eternal law of God, written in the heavens in the character of Jesus Christ.

God gives the name for it himself.

God is love. Upon this hang all the law and the prophets.

 

[tzadik]

I did before. It is the law of God. Not the ten commandments - which are time-culture-and-liturgy bound.

So what you are telling me (correct me if I'm wrong) is that you don't believe that the 10 commandments are part of the Law of God?

It's the eternal law of God, written in the heavens in the character of Jesus Christ.

Would you be able to tell me perhaps 5 of these commandments of this eternal Law?

God is love. Upon this hang all the law and the prophets.

And...are we still able to obey and follow the commandments that hang on love?

 

[Sophrosyne]

SO have you received everything you've been promised already?

Or are you, like Abraham and MOses also waiting for this:

19. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
20. and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
21. whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

I am a Christian so that promise is received. I believe Paul and the other NT authors when they equate salvation as present and not a future event in believers lives. The scripture doesn't say believe in Jesus and you will be saved later it says believe (now) and be saved (now).

 

[tzadik]

I am a Christian so that promise is received.

I understand what you are saying, but unless I"m mistaken there are LOTS of promises that you have not yet received.

Your "receipt" is no more than Abraham's 'receipt' of the promises promised to him.

aka---not received until ACTUALLY received. There's no spiritualizing it.

I believe Paul and the other NT authors when they equate salvation as present and not a future event in believers lives. The scripture doesn't say believe in Jesus and you will be saved later it says believe (now) and be saved (now).

What does Peter mean with "salvation ready to be received in the last time"?

According to you...this has already happened?
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. - Rev 12.

 

[MoreCoffee]

tzadik, Your posts are full of law. Law, law, and more law.

If that's what you desire then you will stick with it.

Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. That's what Christians rely on.

The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. (John 1:17 NRSV)

 

[tzadik]

tzadik, Your posts are full of law. Law, law, and more law.

Because with the correct understanding of His Law one can say (like David)

I shall delight in Your commandments, Which I love.

And I shall lift up my hands to Your commandments, which I love;
And I will meditate on Your statutes. If that's what you desire then you will stick with it.

God tells us in Deuteronomy 6

"You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up."

I'm sure you agree with atleast the first portion of the above

Grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. That's what Christians rely on.

You just don't see how perfectly the Law of God and the Grace of God are connected

Do you believe that Yeshua, the creator of all things is the one who created the Law of God? (or was that strictly God the father's doing)

 

[Sophrosyne]

I understand what you are saying, but unless I"m mistaken there are LOTS of promises that you have not yet received.

Your "receipt" is no more than Abraham's 'receipt' of the promises promised to him.

aka---not received until ACTUALLY received. There's no spiritualizing it.

nope... scripture puts Abraham as unsaved in his lifetime but he had faith that gave him the promise of it while the New Testament says believe in Jesus and you ARE saved... NOT promised but ARE as in NOW... not LATER.

What does Peter mean with "salvation ready to be received in the last time"?

According to you...this has already happened?
Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. - Rev 12.

I would say that if God shows up and he is the savior then salvation is there. You are reading into the scripture something that isn't there. There is too many other scriptures that equate Jesus himself saying you are saved NOW by his own words....... not waiting till the future.

 

[tzadik]

nope... scripture puts Abraham as unsaved in his lifetime

What? Where does Scripture ANYWHERE even SUGGEST that Abraham was unsaved?

but he had faith that gave him the promise of it while the New Testament says believe in Jesus and you ARE saved... NOT promised but ARE as in NOW... not LATER.

If there is only one way to be saved; namely through Messiah by grace through faith, then that is the way Abraham was saved, or no one from Adam until the thief on the cross (according to your understanding) was saved. This is preposterous.

I would say that if God shows up and he is the savior then salvation is there.

Limited, chronological thinking. If the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, then all who are saved would be saved by the same cleansing and redeeming blood.

You are reading into the scripture something that isn't there. There is too many other scriptures that equate Jesus himself saying you are saved NOW by his own words....... not waiting till the future.

Not true, I believe that Scriptures teaches us that we have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Sophrosyne]

What? Where does Scripture ANYWHERE even SUGGEST that Abraham was unsaved?

where does it say was saved in his lifetime?

If there is only one way to be saved; namely through Messiah by grace through faith, then that is the way Abraham was saved, or no one from Adam until the thief on the cross (according to your understanding) was saved. This is preposterous.

Might as well throw out the new testament then because it is all there Jesus had to die for salvation to be complete. According to your logic Abraham was saved prior to that occurring. Jesus could have just said I don't need to go to the cross at all people were saved before it happened.

Limited, chronological thinking. If the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, then all who are saved would be saved by the same cleansing and redeeming blood.


Not true, I believe that Scriptures teaches us that we have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved.

It's not rocket science.

Actually the scripture isn't saying that the actual deed was done IE the cross it says that God already decided it was to be done so in his mind it was accomplished. You cannot believe Jesus was slain twice on a cross for our sins once before the foundation of the world and once about 2000 years ago that doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[tzadik]

where does it say was saved in his lifetime?

In all the passages that you quote about salvation. He was imputed righteousness through His faith by grace, just like you and me. Unless of course you believe that his faith was NOT saving faith.

Might as well throw out the new testament then because it is all there Jesus had to die for salvation to be complete. According to your logic Abraham was saved prior to that occurring. Jesus could have just said I don't need to go to the cross at all people were saved before it happened.

It's as if you're purposefully not remembering that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. He HAD to die, in order that we might be saved. The "NT" narrates this event as it happened in a chronological sense. It definitely does not imply that no one, not even the thief on the cross was actually saved, because He did not physically and chronologically die and resurrect.

Actually the scripture isn't saying that the actual deed was done IE the cross it says that God already decided it was to be done so in his mind it was accomplished. You cannot believe Jesus was slain twice on a cross for our sins once before the foundation of the world and once about 2000 years ago that doesn't make any sense at all.

Let me try to let you think for yourself for a second...

John saw Yeshua coming to him (loooong before He died and was raised) and said: "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Was he telling those around him that this Yeshua will take away the sin of the world someday in the future?

Was he telling them that this Yeshua that you see is going to be the savior someday?

Or was He saying BEHOLD this is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world! ?

 

[tzadik]

And since we're on the topic of salvation before the chronological death, please explain this passage in Exodus 32 to me...

32. "But now, if You will, forgive their sin--and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!"
33. The LORD said to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Then there are those who don't apply any of the written word because it was not personally addressed to their full names...

How does one apply something that does not exist ? ...There is no mention of "the written word" .
If not addressed to someone , why would they consider that something applies to them ? Because some human told them by some handed-down , man-made doctrine ?

 

[tzadik]

How does one apply something that does not exist ? ...There is no mention of "the written word" .
If not addressed to someone , why would they consider that something applies to them ? Because some human told them by some handed-down , man-made doctrine ?

Your arguments are for a different forum on a different website.

I can't talk Scripture with someone who does not consider Genesis through Revelation to be the Word of God...

 

[bugkiller]

Your arguments are for a different forum on a different website.

I can't talk Scripture with someone who does not consider Genesis through Revelation to be the Word of God...

Then why are you here? You say some of Paul's works are not inspired Scripture as we have them. Essentially you can not even talk to yourself if I take what you said to be true. It is not just Paul either. You simply refuse to acknowledge words and phrases or misdefine them that do not fit your paradigm without regard to original or even translated langauge.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

SO have you received everything you've been promised already?

Or are you, like Abraham and MOses also waiting for this:

19. "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;
20. and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you,
21. whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient time.

According to John 5:24 I have everthing I want. I guess you are trying to say that I do not because I can not walk through walls and closed locked doors. So essentially I think you are talking about something you know nothing about from some dream world.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

nope... scripture puts Abraham as unsaved in his lifetime but he had faith that gave him the promise of it while the New Testament says believe in Jesus and you ARE saved... NOT promised but ARE as in NOW... not LATER.

I would say that if God shows up and he is the savior then salvation is there. You are reading into the scripture something that isn't there. There is too many other scriptures that equate Jesus himself saying you are saved NOW by his own words....... not waiting till the future.

and

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

lol.

Pretty sure Jeremiah does a good job explaining what WILL change in the covenants.

What I missed was the part where he said ANYTHING about the LAW changing... (unless you are referring to the change of locations)

What do you find?

Having read the last several pages of post prior to this one (mine) I realize that I need a break from trying to talk to folks like you.

See ya in a couple days.

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

In all the passages that you quote about salvation. He was imputed righteousness through His faith by grace, just like you and me. Unless of course you believe that his faith was NOT saving faith.

But he wasn't saved at that time, if he was then that literally destroys your whole argument because Abraham didn't have the Law to obey thus according to you he had salvation WITHOUT the Law so you lose either way.

It's as if you're purposefully not remembering that the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world. He HAD to die, in order that we might be saved. The "NT" narrates this event as it happened in a chronological sense. It definitely does not imply that no one, not even the thief on the cross was actually saved, because He did not physically and chronologically die and resurrect.

There was no physical slaying of Jesus at that time, otherwise Mary would have had to exist before the foundation of the world to birth the savior. Now one could consider that a the cross it spanned time from beginning to end somehow. The fact is Jesus died in our timeline about 2000 years ago.... did he die twice for our sins or just once?

Let me try to let you think for yourself for a second...

John saw Yeshua coming to him (loooong before He died and was raised) and said: "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Was he telling those around him that this Yeshua will take away the sin of the world someday in the future?

Was he telling them that this Yeshua that you see is going to be the savior someday?

Or was He saying BEHOLD this is the Lamb that takes away the sin of the world! ?

You are now seeing the problem.... John didn't say behold the Lamb of God who TOOK away the sin of the world ALREADY.... he says it in a future tense. The scripture about the lamb being slain prior to creation deals with God's decision to do it seeing forward in time. In God's mind he saw Jesus die 2000 years ago or so our time and to him it was just as if it was the next instant. In other words to God a billion years could be instantaneously just as if it happened when he thought about it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by tzadik

lol.

Pretty sure Jeremiah does a good job explaining what WILL change in the covenants.

What I missed was the part where he said ANYTHING about the LAW changing... (unless you are referring to the change of locations)

What do you find?
​

Having read the last several pages of post prior to this one (mine) I realize that I need a break from trying to talk to folks like you.

See ya in a couple days.

bugkiller

I don't blame ya bro.

I pray our bro "Frogster" shows up soon



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