Conflict between religion and job responsibilities

[Starcomet]

Is he?

To me, "Do not hate others" seems to be a different sentiment compared to "love (agapao - active imperative verb) your enemies".

You cannot say you truly love someone if you actively hate them.

 

[ananda]

You cannot say you truly love someone if you actively hate them.

Our responses towards abusers include three possibilities:

1. (Actively) loving them;
2. Maintaining an equipoise; that is, neither harboring hatred nor love for them; or
   
3. (Actively) hating them.

Jesus seemed to have taught #1 (a standard for his disciples, but not necessarily for himself?). The Buddha, as I understand him, taught #2 (for himself and his disciples).

"Do not hate" on its own suggests #2. "Do not hate, but also love them too" suggests #1.

 

[Starcomet]

Our responses towards abusers include three possibilities:

1. (Actively) loving them;
2. Maintaining an equipoise; that is, neither harboring hatred nor love for them; or
   
3. (Actively) hating them.

Jesus seemed to have taught #1 (a standard for his disciples, but not necessarily for himself?). The Buddha, as I understand him, taught #2 (for himself and his disciples).

"Do not hate" on its own suggests #2. "Do not hate, but also love them too" suggests #1.

I would say that the message behind his teachings would point towards number 1 indeed, but number 2 is not a "sinful" position at all. If you maintained a balanced approach towards someone I do not believe that is against his teachings. But if the person does you harm or is in trouble, you must respond with kindness and not be filled with contempt.

And I believe he considered the standard applying to him as well, but we must remember that no one is perfect.

 

[ananda]

I would say that the message behind his teachings would point towards number 1 indeed, but number 2 is not a "sinful" position at all. If you maintained a balanced approach towards someone I do not believe that is against his teachings. But if the person does you harm or is in trouble, you must respond with kindness and not be filled with contempt.

And I believe he considered the standard applying to him as well, but we must remember that no one is perfect.

The idea that he would eventually send people to an eternal hell or lake of fire after a bloody war against his enemies do not seem to suggest to me that the standard applies to him.

 

[salt-n-light]

I often feel there is a conflict between managing our small business and the teachings of Jesus. I would think the same conflicts would occur in other area of life too. For example people often use other people, but Jesus said to forgive 7 times 70, lend the shirt off your back, go the extra mile, etc.

IMO, Christianity is not a practical way of life. It leads to humiliation and defeat - just as it ended for Jesus on the cross. People can water-down Christianity and claim to be successful in life while also being Christian, but they are deceiving themselves.

I suspect that Judaism must have more practical instructions that do not cause a conflict. I don't know if Buddhism is compatible with worldly success or not. Islam I'm sure has no conflicts.

Any opinions?

You're right practically, no one should be compelled to walk a road that pretty much guarantees humiliation and persecution. Practically, people would strive to be happy, live comfortably, get the best out of life, and Christianity doesn't guarantee that in this world.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Would you agree that if somebody didn't pay you for your work, then you might not work for them again? That's just common sense right? But Jesus probably would have said, "if you only work for those who will pay then how is that a credit to you? Even the Gentiles do this. As the rain falls indiscriminately on those who pay their bills and those who don't pay their bills, so also you should work for those who pay their bills and those who don't pay their bills."

You really should look up your passages. He said: "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them". Paul says that: "a laborer is worthy of his hire". For me though as far as I know I have never charged people when I am serving God. Jesus said to "store up for yourself treasures in Heaven". Where your heart is then your treasure will be. So I expect that my treasure well be in Heaven and I am not worried about what I collect from people here in this world. We are told to "Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap." So when we give we receive much more in return. If we see our brother or sister in need and we can do something to help then this is an expression of true love to help others. Even God's love is a sacrificial love. He loved the world so much that HE gave His Son for us. We are to give as much as we can and serve others. Because those who are the greatest are servants of all. We are to sacrifice ourselves for the sake of others. Not just out family but even our enemy. No matter what harm they intended for us we are to return good for their evil. " Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you" Even we are to go the second mile. If I am paid to do a job I go the second mile and I give them more then I am paid and more than I agreed to do. This is why I always get paid, because I give so much more than we agreed on and they are often impressed by that. No one ever complains that they did not get what they bargained for.

 

[ViaCrucis]

.
The Word/Law/commandment of God to "Love your neighbor/friend as yourself and hate your enemy(as the devil)" still holds true.
....... Similarly for the law of ni4ni, eg convicted murderers are executed or imprisoned.

It is a mistake, contrarian and foolishness for Christians to "love their enemies", "turn the other cheek", "go the extra mile", "lend to all who ask" or "pluck out their eyes and chop off their limbs".
....... Only those who do not accept Jesus as their Christ/Messiah but still want to be saved from hell, would need to fulfill such foolishness, eg the stiff-necked Jews and Pharisees who personally rejected Jesus Christ.(cf; MATTHEW.5:17-48, ROMANS.12:19-21)

What on earth are you talking about?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[salt-n-light]

I often feel there is a conflict between managing our small business and the teachings of Jesus. I would think the same conflicts would occur in other area of life too. For example people often use other people, but Jesus said to forgive 7 times 70, lend the shirt off your back, go the extra mile, etc.

IMO, Christianity is not a practical way of life. It leads to humiliation and defeat - just as it ended for Jesus on the cross. People can water-down Christianity and claim to be successful in life while also being Christian, but they are deceiving themselves.

I suspect that Judaism must have more practical instructions that do not cause a conflict. I don't know if Buddhism is compatible with worldly success or not. Islam I'm sure has no conflicts.

Any opinions?

I do have a question, how did you come to the conclusion that you have to be somewhat corrupt in morals to have a business? That's a bit of an odd statement.

 

[Starcomet]

The idea that he would eventually send people to an eternal hell or lake of fire after a bloody war against his enemies do not seem to suggest to me that the standard applies to him.

If you believe those are indeed his words as they go against everything else he has said. And the Greek work for aionios does not mean "eternal" as it is often translated.

 

[discipler7]

What on earth are you talking about?

ROMANS.11: = 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”
.
.
.
Should Christians "love their neighbor as themselves and hate their enemy" or "love their enemy as themselves (and hate their neighbor)".? The two are contradictory.

Should Christians "pluck out their eyes and chop off their limbs" or "continue to occasionally look at a (pretty) woman to lust at her in their hearts".?

Should Christians "turn the other cheek when unjustly slapped on the right cheek" or "seek revenge or self-defense or make a police report(= apply the law of ni4ni)".?

Should Christians "offer their cloaks when unjustly sued for their tunics" or "mount a court defense or counter suit(= apply the law of ni4ni)".?

Should Christians "lend to all who asked and not seek repayment(= do not apply the law of ni4ni)".?

 

[cloudyday2]

I do have a question, how did you come to the conclusion that you have to be somewhat corrupt in morals to have a business? That's a bit of an odd statement.

No, this is the point that I think you guys are misunderstanding. Jesus did not say "do not harm others"; Jesus said "help others even when it will harm you". At least that is my understanding.

In business there are lots of people who are more than willing to take everything you have - employees, customers, vendors. This is true even with friends. There are many "friends" who won't hesitate to bleed you white if they have the opportunity. It's not just business that is the problem; it is real life.

Christianity was a doomsday religion. Jesus expected the world to end in the first century, so there was no need to be pragmatic. Jesus did not expect Christianity to be a mainstream religion practiced by billions of people for thousands of years. Jesus was expecting a sprint, but it became a marathon. IMO

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

No, this is the point that I think you guys are misunderstanding. Jesus did not say "do not harm others"; Jesus said "help others even when it will harm you". At least that is my understanding.

In business there are lots of people who are more than willing to take everything you have - employees, customers, vendors. This is true even with friends. There are many "friends" who won't hesitate to bleed you white if they have the opportunity. It's not just business that is the problem; it is real life.

Christianity was a doomsday religion. Jesus expected the world to end in the first century, so there was no need to be pragmatic. Jesus did not expect Christianity to be a mainstream religion practiced by billions of people for thousands of years. Jesus was expecting a sprint, but it became a marathon. IMO

If you look at psychology, this is one of those game theory problems. Within a population, you require a certain amount of people that act altruistically or fairly, to keep a system going and stable. If you don't expect people to really be sick when calling in sick, or to return a favour, most wouldn't do it. Certain amount of people will then cheat the system, and thus gain far more at everyone else's expense, but if too many people do so, it collapses, as no one is then willing to act altruistically - if too many call in sick when they aren't, the boss will not believe people who really are sick, and will likely drastically curtail the benefits real sick employees need, for instance.

It is a balance in the population. If I recall, under correction though, the amounts for a stable system are about 75% fair people and 25% cheats, with a percentage of people that occasionally buck their classification (generally fair people that may cheat once in a while or vice versa). If more than 25% start cheating, then no one trusts anymore, and the cheaters no longer prosper, thus favouring people that are intrinsically honest, who are thus prioritised again - you would only trust those that acted honestly in the past.

 

[cloudyday2]

If you look at psychology, this is one of those game theory problems. Within a population, you require a certain amount of people that act altruistically or fairly, to keep a system going and stable. If you don't expect people to really be sick when calling in sick, or to return a favour, most wouldn't do it. Certain amount of people will then cheat the system, and thus gain far more at everyone else's expense, but if too many people do so, it collapses, as no one is then willing to act altruistically - if too many call in sick when they aren't, the boss will not believe people who really are sick, and will likely drastically curtail the benefits real sick employees need, for instance.

It is a balance in the population. If I recall, under correction though, the amounts for a stable system are about 75% fair people and 25% cheats, with a percentage of people that occasionally buck their classification (generally fair people that may cheat once in a while or vice versa). If more than 25% start cheating, then no one trusts anymore, and the cheaters no longer prosper, thus favouring people that are intrinsically honest, who are thus prioritised again - you would only trust those that acted honestly in the past.

So how do you see Christians fitting into this model? Jesus said if somebody asks you for your umbrella then you should give him your raincoat too - even if that means you are going to get soaking wet and catch pneumonia and die (paraphrasing )

EDIT: For people who think I am exaggerating the teachings of Jesus you need to read about the behavior of people who zealously try to practice Christianity to the best of their understanding - such as monks. This is exactly what monks would do, so I'm not making it up.

 

[ananda]

If you believe those are indeed his words as they go against everything else he has said. And the Greek work for aionios does not mean "eternal" as it is often translated.

I'm merely echoing what, is my understanding of what much of Christendom believes and teaches, in my experience.

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

So how do you see Christians fitting into this model? Jesus said if somebody asks you for your umbrella then you should give him your raincoat too - even if that means you are going to get soaking wet and catch pneumonia and die (paraphrasing )

Well, if Christians are as scrupulously honest and helpful as they are supposed to be, they will be cheated about 25 or less percent of the time, on average, assuming I am getting the numbers right. So often they will be taken advantage of, but by no means always. If Christians made up the majority of the population though, the cheaters would prosper infinitely. But the Christians will get by, and if many of your fellows are Christian as well, their fair treatment and altruism towards you, may compensate for the losses suffered from the cheats.

I assume the majority of the population being Christian would favour cheats, but as I doubt the amount of Christians acting in this manner has ever been as high as its supposed to, the non-Christians and nominal Christians should be sufficient to penalise the cheats. If everyone lived by these Christian precepts though, it would be a utopia.

 

[MoneyGuy]

But wouldn't you agree that success in this life is almost impossible for a person who is really trying to follow the teachings of Jesus?

No.

You weren't asking me but no.

 

[cloudyday2]

No.

You weren't asking me but no.

Why not?

 

[MoneyGuy]

You really think it's almost impossible to be a success when you're trying to follow Jesus' teachings? I know successful people who are honest in business dealings, and never cheat anyone. I've been in business for 23 years and am a part time politician and I conduct my business honestly, and I'm very successful.

 

[cloudyday2]

Well, if Christians are as scrupulously honest and helpful as they are supposed to be, they will be cheated about 25 or less percent of the time, on average, assuming I am getting the numbers right. So often they will be taken advantage of, but by no means always. If Christians made up the majority of the population though, the cheaters would prosper infinitely. But the Christians will get by, and if many of your fellows are Christian as well, their fair treatment and altruism towards you, may compensate for the losses suffered from the cheats.

I assume the majority of the population being Christian would favour cheats, but as I doubt the amount of Christians acting in this manner has ever been as high as its supposed to, the non-Christians and nominal Christians should be sufficient to penalise the cheats. If everyone lived by these Christian precepts though, it would be a utopia.

What I imagine happening is that the 25% will take everything the Christians own and then they will enslave the Christians.

 

[cloudyday2]

You really think it's almost impossible to be a success when you're trying to follow Jesus' teachings? I know successful people who are honest in business dealings, and never cheat anyone. I've been in business for 23 years and am a part time politician and I conduct my business honestly, and I'm very successful.

Again, you don't understand the teachings of Jesus. Jesus didn't say "be honest", "don't cheat anybody". Even the Gentiles aspired to be honest and not cheat people, so how did that make Christians special. Jesus expected far more than that of his followers.

Of course you can succeed as a Christian if you water the message down to "don't be a crook".