Conflict between religion and job responsibilities

[cloudyday2]

So I want back to work as a carpenter. I did remodeling, renovation and repairs. People need homes to live in. Jesus was a carpenter. So I feel this was one of the most honest jobs there is.

what if people don't pay you for your work and they want even more work done? Jesus said forgive 7 times 70 times.

 

[joshua 1 9]

what if people don't pay you for your work and they want even more work done? Jesus said forgive 7 times 70 times.

I always got paid because I needed money for the materials to do the job. So people were in the habit of giving me money. Lot of people do lots of things that they do not get paid for. They say in Heaven there is no money. People freely give what they have to give to others. IF people do not pay us then God says we can collect from Him.

"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you." Luke 6:38

 

[cloudyday2]

I always got paid because I needed money for the materials to do the job. So people were in the habit of giving me money. Lot of people do lots of things that they do not get paid for.

Would you agree that if somebody didn't pay you for your work, then you might not work for them again? That's just common sense right? But Jesus probably would have said, "if you only work for those who will pay then how is that a credit to you? Even the Gentiles do this. As the rain falls indiscriminately on those who pay their bills and those who don't pay their bills, so also you should work for those who pay their bills and those who don't pay their bills."

 

[Starcomet]

Would you agree that if somebody didn't pay you for your work, then you might not work for them again? That's just common sense right? But Jesus probably would have said, "if you only work for those who will pay then how is that a credit to you? Even the Gentiles do this. As the rain falls indiscriminately on those who pay their bills and those who don't pay their bills, so also you should work for those who pay their bills and those who don't pay their bills."

But Jesus also mentions paying people a fair wage for their work.

 

[ananda]

I often feel there is a conflict between managing our small business and the teachings of Jesus. I would think the same conflicts would occur in other area of life too. For example people often use other people, but Jesus said to forgive 7 times 70, lend the shirt off your back, go the extra mile, etc.

IMO, Christianity is not a practical way of life. It leads to humiliation and defeat - just as it ended for Jesus on the cross. People can water-down Christianity and claim to be successful in life while also being Christian, but they are deceiving themselves.

I suspect that Judaism must have more practical instructions that do not cause a conflict. I don't know if Buddhism is compatible with worldly success or not. Islam I'm sure has no conflicts.

Any opinions?

There is no incompatibility between Buddhism (as I understand it) and worldly success, because of one core Buddhist principle: causes produces/results in associated effects.

If someone wishes to achieve worldly success (cause), then he can go ahead, but should also be fully prepared to accept all of the consequences associated with that desire (effects). If someone else wishes to be unskillful and evil (causes), then he must also be prepared to accept its subsequent consequences (effects).

This is why there really isn't one set of ethics or morals mandatory for all Buddhists. The five precepts of Buddhism are basically the minimum necessary for rebirth back into the human plane of existence. If someone wants to aim for the hells, then that's their choice. Or, for the heavens, that's also their choice. Or, for nibbana, that's also their choice.

 

[dreadnought]

If you have it in your possession, then you can afford to give it. Don't you think Jesus would have given away all his clothing and walked naked to clothe somebody else? On the other hand, if you give away all your clothing in real life, then you might catch pneumonia and die.

See you are talking about compromise and setting limits. There is none of that in the gospel that I can see. Jesus said cut off your hand if necessary. Remove your eye, etc.

We are asked to love, not do the impossible. It works.

 

[cloudyday2]

But Jesus also mentions paying people a fair wage for their work.

Then of course you should pay people a fair wage, but in this scenario it is somebody else who is cheating you.

Jesus didn't simply say "be fair to others". Jesus said "forgive people when they are unfair to you". And of course if you turn the other cheek to a bully what is going to happen - you are going to be hit again and again, harder and harder, until you are dead. But that's what happened to Jesus and He said to take up your cross and follow him.

 

[cloudyday2]

We are asked to love, not do the impossible. It works.

Even the Gentiles do that. Jesus said to love those who hate you. It isn't impossible, but it will inevitably result in others abusing you. It's just the way it is.

If you aren't being abused. If you don't feel like you are hanging on a cross. If you aren't staring at imminent disgrace and death, then you might not be doing Christianity correctly IMO.

 

[cloudyday2]

There is no incompatibility between Buddhism (as I understand it) and worldly success, because of one core Buddhist principle: causes produces/results in associated effects.

If someone wishes to achieve worldly success (cause), then he can go ahead, but should also be fully prepared to accept all of the consequences associated with that desire (effects). If someone else wishes to be unskillful and evil (causes), then he must also be prepared to accept its subsequent consequences (effects).

This is why there really isn't one set of ethics or morals mandatory for all Buddhists. The five precepts of Buddhism are basically the minimum necessary for rebirth back into the human plane of existence. If someone wants to aim for the hells, then that's their choice. Or, for the heavens, that's also their choice. Or, for nibbana, that's also their choice.

Do you think a person could follow the five precepts and be successful at every kind of legal job from soldier to politician to used car salesman?

 

[Starcomet]

Then of course you should pay people a fair wage, but in this scenario it is somebody else who is cheating you.

Jesus didn't simply say "be fair to others". Jesus said "forgive people when they are unfair to you". And of course if you turn the other cheek to a bully what is going to happen - you are going to be hit again and again, harder and harder, until you are dead. But that's what happened to Jesus and He said to take up your cross and follow him.

You should indeed forgive them, but you are not obligated to work for them anymore. And the "take up my cross and follow me." Is not even his words and was put into his mouth to encourage later Christians to follow the doctrines and practices of the movement at that time. At least according to the Jesus Seminar.

 

[dreadnought]

Even the Gentiles do that. Jesus said to love those who hate you. It isn't impossible, but it will inevitably result in others abusing you. It's just the way it is.

If you aren't being abused. If you don't feel like you are hanging on a cross. If you aren't staring at imminent disgrace and death, then you might not be doing Christianity correctly IMO.

I think you are trying to set the bar so high that it can't be attained. That way you have an excuse not to try.

 

[cloudyday2]

I think you are trying to set the bar so high that it can't be attained. That way you have an excuse not to try.

Well... hmmmm.... maybe. I hadn't thought of it that way, but maybe so.

Of course it is Jesus who sets the standard that people should follow and that is a high bar IMO.

 

[dreadnought]

Well... hmmmm.... maybe. I hadn't thought of it that way, but maybe so.

Of course it is Jesus who sets the standard that people should follow and that is a high bar IMO.

But you should better study his teachings.

 

[cloudyday2]

You should indeed forgive them, but you are not obligated to work for them anymore. And the "take up my cross and follow me." Is not even his words and was put into his mouth to encourage later Christians to follow the doctrines and practices of the movement at that time. At least according to the Jesus Seminar.

That is a good point. Nobody would have understood the reference to "cross" until after the crucifixion. Even if Jesus had precognition He would not have phrased it that way.

I could imagine Jesus saying "take up my yoke and follow me", and the saying might have transformed into a slogan "take up my cross and follow me", and then this slogan was recorded without realizing that it was slightly altered from the original saying of Jesus.

 

[ananda]

Do you think a person could follow the five precepts and be successful at every kind of legal job from soldier to politician to used car salesman?

It can be possible. The purpose of the five precepts are ultimately meant to help guide one's self towards the development of right intentions, and are not meant to be strict regulations on the specifics of external behavior.

 

[ananda]

Even the Gentiles do that. Jesus said to love those who hate you. It isn't impossible, but it will inevitably result in others abusing you.

I agree, it doesn't seem practical.

The Buddha instead recommends friendship with wise, peaceful, virtuous, awakened individuals, and to avoid any intimate association with those that aren't (but still serving as an example to the latter).

He also rejects abuse from abusers, but not by abusing his abuser:

... The brahman Akkosaka Bharadvaja heard that a brahman of the Bharadvaja clan had one forth from the home life into homelessness in the presence of the Blessed One. Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words.

When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "What do you think, brahman: Do friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to you as guests?"

"Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to me as guests."

"And what do you think: Do you serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies?"

"Yes, sometimes I serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies."

"And if they don't accept them, to whom do those foods belong?"

"If they don't accept them, Master Gotama, those foods are all mine."

"In the same way, brahman, that with which you have insulted me, who is not insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from you. It's all yours, brahman. It's all yours.

"Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together nor sharing your company, brahman. It's all yours. It's all yours." (from SN 7.2 Akkosa Sutta)​

 

[Phil 1:21]

But wouldn't you agree that success in this life is almost impossible for a person who is really trying to follow the teachings of Jesus?

That depends on how one defines success.

That brings up the so-called "prosperity gospel". There are many Christians who believe that tithing and other charitable activities done in the proper state of mind are likely to be repaid many times over in this life.

The prosperity gospel is perhaps the biggest heresy of our modern times. It appeals to narcissistic people with no or next to no Biblical knowledge whatsoever. It's about as far removed from Christianity as one could get.

 

[Chesterton]

But wouldn't you agree that success in this life is almost impossible for a person who is really trying to follow the teachings of Jesus?

My idea of "success in this life" has nothing to do with money. Following Jesus is success in this life.

 

[Starcomet]

I agree, it doesn't seem practical.

The Buddha instead recommends friendship with wise, peaceful, virtuous, awakened individuals, and to avoid any intimate association with those that aren't (but still serving as an example to the latter).

He also rejects abuse from abusers, but not by abusing his abuser:

... The brahman Akkosaka Bharadvaja heard that a brahman of the Bharadvaja clan had one forth from the home life into homelessness in the presence of the Blessed One. Angered & displeased, he went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, insulted & cursed him with rude, harsh words.

When this was said, the Blessed One said to him: "What do you think, brahman: Do friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to you as guests?"

"Yes, Master Gotama, sometimes friends & colleagues, relatives & kinsmen come to me as guests."

"And what do you think: Do you serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies?"

"Yes, sometimes I serve them with staple & non-staple foods & delicacies."

"And if they don't accept them, to whom do those foods belong?"

"If they don't accept them, Master Gotama, those foods are all mine."

"In the same way, brahman, that with which you have insulted me, who is not insulting; that with which you have taunted me, who is not taunting; that with which you have berated me, who is not berating: that I don't accept from you. It's all yours, brahman. It's all yours.

"Whoever returns insult to one who is insulting, returns taunts to one who is taunting, returns a berating to one who is berating, is said to be eating together, sharing company, with that person. But I am neither eating together nor sharing your company, brahman. It's all yours. It's all yours." (from SN 7.2 Akkosa Sutta)​

I think what Jesus was ultimately trying to say is do not hold hate or vengeance in your heart for others.

 

[ananda]

I think what Jesus was ultimately trying to say is do not hold hate or vengeance in your heart for others.

Is he?

To me, "Do not hate others" seems to be a different sentiment compared to "love (agapao - active imperative verb) your enemies".