Conflict between religion and job responsibilities

[MoneyGuy]

Again, you don't understand the teachings of Jesus. Jesus didn't say "be honest", "don't cheat anybody". Even the Gentiles aspired to be honest and not cheat people, so how did that make Christians special. Jesus expected far more than that of his followers.

Of course you can succeed as a Christian if you water the message down to "don't be a crook".

Provide an example of something Jesus said that would make a Christian in business unsuccessful if followed.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I do have a question, how did you come to the conclusion that you have to be somewhat corrupt in morals to have a business? That's a bit of an odd statement.

It's probably more a statement about the condition of the world: it's the law of the carnivorous rainforest out there.

 

[salt-n-light]

No, this is the point that I think you guys are misunderstanding. Jesus did not say "do not harm others"; Jesus said "help others even when it will harm you". At least that is my understanding.

In business there are lots of people who are more than willing to take everything you have - employees, customers, vendors. This is true even with friends. There are many "friends" who won't hesitate to bleed you white if they have the opportunity. It's not just business that is the problem; it is real life.

Christianity was a doomsday religion. Jesus expected the world to end in the first century, so there was no need to be pragmatic. Jesus did not expect Christianity to be a mainstream religion practiced by billions of people for thousands of years. Jesus was expecting a sprint, but it became a marathon. IMO

That still doesn't answer my question though. I wasn't going into that.

 

[cloudyday2]

Provide an example of something Jesus said that would make a Christian in business unsuccessful if followed.

Gee, I don't even know where to start. Read post #13 and #14 in the linked thread below. That is what reminded me of this issue once again.
Agnostics/seekers what are your practices?

 

[salt-n-light]

It's probably more a statement about the condition of the world: it's the law of the carnivorous rainforest out there.

My question is more of why is it a standard or expectation or norm for the OP in terms of his view of business.More on why is business=evil? Where that logic coming from.

 

[cloudyday2]

My question is more of why is it a standard or expectation or norm for the OP in terms of his view of business.More on why is business=evil? Where that logic coming from.

No, I don't believe "business=evil".

 

[salt-n-light]

No, I don't believe "business=evil".

So then where's the conflict? Business is a good thing, Christianity is a good thing...how would success in business falsify someone's faith?

 

[Robban]

I often feel there is a conflict between managing our small business and the teachings of Jesus. I would think the same conflicts would occur in other area of life too. For example people often use other people, but Jesus said to forgive 7 times 70, lend the shirt off your back, go the extra mile, etc.

IMO, Christianity is not a practical way of life. It leads to humiliation and defeat - just as it ended for Jesus on the cross. People can water-down Christianity and claim to be successful in life while also being Christian, but they are deceiving themselves.

I suspect that Judaism must have more practical instructions that do not cause a conflict. I don't know if Buddhism is compatible with worldly success or not. Islam I'm sure has no conflicts.

Charity.

Works like this,
by helping someone it is not the one being helped who is to thank you,

the one who is helping should be thankful for an opportunity and have the means to help.

The late Rebbe of blessed memory had long lines of people on Sunday mornings
they would each recieve a blessing and a dollar to give to charity.

It should be taught from an early age.

So it comes as natural as breathing.

That which is achieved by force will not survive, will not last.


Any opinions?

 

[cloudyday2]

@Robban , what would be the Jewish attitude towards helping a direct competitor in business to look good to his customers when there will be no credit or gratitude of any kind to your own business?

 

[Robban]

@Robban , what would be the Jewish attitude towards helping a direct competitor in business to look good to his customers when there will be no credit or gratitude of any kind to your own business?

Well, looking back on when I had a firm though only myself employed, but registered
as a firm.
With all the obligations to the state.

Generaly I looked at their good points and spoke of them when such talk came up.

Thinking, yeah, they are good at that, but also believing in what I myself was doing.

A satisfied customer will tell someone else, Toward the end I had to turn down
would be customers, otherwise I would have to work 24/7.

 

[juvenissun]

I often feel there is a conflict between managing our small business and the teachings of Jesus. I would think the same conflicts would occur in other area of life too. For example people often use other people, but Jesus said to forgive 7 times 70, lend the shirt off your back, go the extra mile, etc.

IMO, Christianity is not a practical way of life. It leads to humiliation and defeat - just as it ended for Jesus on the cross. People can water-down Christianity and claim to be successful in life while also being Christian, but they are deceiving themselves.

I suspect that Judaism must have more practical instructions that do not cause a conflict. I don't know if Buddhism is compatible with worldly success or not. Islam I'm sure has no conflicts.

Any opinions?

There ARE many well-doing Christians.
Either they are fakes, or you are wrong.

 

[faroukfarouk]

So then where's the conflict? Business is a good thing, Christianity is a good thing...how would success in business falsify someone's faith?

I think the general idea is that, with experience of life, the pressure in business is sometimes to cut corners, or adopt associations, in ways that some Christians might find unethical.

 

[salt-n-light]

I think the general idea is that, with experience of life, the pressure in business is sometimes to cut corners, or adopt associations, in ways that some Christians might find unethical.

But then you can say that about life in general, that pressures in certain given situation would push us to cut corners. Conflict is everywhere. Everyone has to make tough decisions on morals every day. But doesn't mean Christians can't be blessed in this life, doesn't mean that Christians can't pursue business, nor does it mean when they do that they are living deceiving lives.

 

[faroukfarouk]

But then you can say that about life in general, that pressures in certain given situation would push us to cut corners. Conflict is everywhere. Everyone has to make tough decisions on morals every day. But doesn't mean Christians can't be blessed in this life, doesn't mean that Christians can't pursue business, nor does it mean when they do that they are living deceiving lives.

I agree.

 

[cloudyday2]

Well, looking back on when I had a firm though only myself employed, but registered
as a firm.
With all the obligations to the state.

Generaly I looked at their good points and spoke of them when such talk came up.

Thinking, yeah, they are good at that, but also believing in what I myself was doing.

A satisfied customer will tell someone else, Toward the end I had to turn down
would be customers, otherwise I would have to work 24/7.

Imagine though that a direct competitor wants your help but he isn't going to give your company any credit and in fact he is going to continue saying bad things about your company to everybody he meets. You know this because this has happened many times previously.

Jesus said "bless those who curse you".

One of my friends was telling me about a neighbor who walked his dogs onto his yard every day to poop. He complained to the neighbor, but the neighbor simply laughed. Then we look at nations like North Korea. What would happen if Japan blessed North Korea each time they launched an ICBM over their island?

 

[salt-n-light]

Imagine though that a direct competitor wants your help but he isn't going to give your company any credit and in fact he is going to continue saying bad things about your company to everybody he meets. You know this because this has happened many times previously.

Jesus said "bless those who curse you".

One of my friends was telling me about a neighbor who walked his dogs onto his yard every day to poop. He complained to the neighbor, but the neighbor simply laughed. Then we look at nations like North Korea. What would happen if Japan blessed North Korea each time they launched an ICBM over their island?

You're kinda going all over the place, to try to set a stage of the conflict. But again, there's no conflict and Ill show you with this verse.

Roman 12

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly.[h] Never be wise in your own sight. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it[i] to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Being a Christian, being redeemed is two-fold. It means that not only the Christian is surely saved, but the enemy will be surely punished. No sin goes unpunished, whether or not you see the punishment. The responsibility of the believer is thus not to dwell on this things, nor be troubled whenever it arises because God avenges His own. With that hope, I don't feel compelled to cut corners, it compels me to love them, not because I'm forced to, but because they are walking into God's wrath, and I rather show mercy and compassion and pray that God saved them from damnation like how He has saved me.

I also have the hope in God, that He takes care of His own, He's always with us and our end no matter is a good end. So again, no need to cut corners, as long as I honor God, God will watch over and take care of me. That again alleviates the pressure. Many examples in the Word, including kings who have been taken care of. The Christian walk is not cookie cutter, its not only a poor man's gospel. Its for everyone, and it solidifies a sure hope so that we are not bounded to things of this world. Whether the Christian is successful or not in this life, nothing will be in vain.

Jesus was a carpenter. He could have stayed with his paps and grow His business. Jesus during His travels had Judas as treasurer, he could have stayed longer. He could have done alot of business, He could have save himself cut corners and make profit, that would be a practical thing to do, but He laid down His life, no man took it from Him. He had a guaranteed hope when He honored His Father, and He knew that His sacrifice will not go in vain. Jesus was not less of Jesus when He was a carpenter, any more than He was more Jesus when He died on the cross. The point is that His hope were on the things above no matter what situation He was in. Same for the christian.

 

[cloudyday2]

You're kinda going all over the place, to try to set a stage of the conflict. But again, there's no conflict and Ill show you with this verse.

Roman 12

14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly.[h] Never be wise in your own sight. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but give thought to do what is honorable in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it[i] to the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.” 20 To the contrary, “if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Being a Christian, being redeemed is two-fold. It means that not only the Christian is surely saved, but the enemy will be surely punished. No sin goes unpunished, whether or not you see the punishment. The responsibility of the believer is thus not to dwell on this things, nor be troubled whenever it arises because God avenges His own. With that hope, I don't feel compelled to cut corners, it compels me to love them, not because I'm forced to, but because they are walking into God's wrath, and I rather show mercy and compassion and pray that God saved them from damnation like how He has saved me.

I also have the hope in God, that He takes care of His own, He's always with us and our end no matter is a good end. So again, no need to cut corners, as long as I honor God, God will watch over and take care of me. That again alleviates the pressure. Many examples in the Word, including kings who have been taken care of. The Christian walk is not cookie cutter, its not only a poor man's gospel. Its for everyone, and it solidifies a sure hope so that we are not bounded to things of this world. Whether the Christian is successful or not in this life, nothing will be in vain.

Jesus was a carpenter. He could have stayed with his paps and grow His business. Jesus during His travels had Judas as treasurer, he could have stayed longer. He could have done alot of business, He could have save himself cut corners and make profit, that would be a practical thing to do, but He laid down His life, no man took it from Him. He had a guaranteed hope when He honored His Father, and He knew that His sacrifice will not go in vain. Jesus was not less of Jesus when He was a carpenter, any more than He was more Jesus when He died on the cross. The point is that His hope were on the things above no matter what situation He was in. Same for the christian.

That verse about heaping burning coals on an enemy's head by being "kind" is rather repulsive IMO.

I'm not interested in vengeance in the future to "settle the score". I'm interested in protecting myself from exploitation. God isn't helping me clean my neighbor's dog poop off my yard by promising to pour hot coals on his head someday.

 

[salt-n-light]

That verse about heaping burning coals on an enemy's head by being "kind" is rather repulsive IMO.

I'm not interested in vengeance in the future to "settle the score". I'm interested in protecting myself from exploitation. God isn't helping me clean my neighbor's dog poop off my yard by promising to pour hot coals on his head someday.

I didn't know the neighbor's dog poop meant so much to you.

But the point is that this life ain't logical, not every input is a direct output. Life ain't cookie cutter, and not everything is in your control. Christians are already aware and understand this, this is why the conflicts you're trying to avoid and protect yourself from, is not really made much of an issue. We just make our plans and have God direct our paths.

Maybe you should read Ecclesiastes, it kinda touches upon the topics you brought up.

 

[Robban]

Imagine though that a direct competitor wants your help but he isn't going to give your company any credit and in fact he is going to continue saying bad things about your company to everybody he meets. You know this because this has happened many times previously.

Jesus said "bless those who curse you".

One of my friends was telling me about a neighbor who walked his dogs onto his yard every day to poop. He complained to the neighbor, but the neighbor simply laughed. Then we look at nations like North Korea. What would happen if Japan blessed North Korea each time they launched an ICBM over their island?

We live and learn.
I had a good friend once who was in the same position as you,

We spent spent a lot of time together, he would shake his head and say,
"I don,t know, maybe they are just having a bad day."

If your friends neighbour tried anything like that here he would probably get into trouble.

 

[discipler7]

Roman 12

We have to put ROMANS.12 in its proper historical context.

Jesus Christ was crucified by the Roman governor, Pontius Pilate, through false accusations made by the Jewish Temple authorities that Jesus was a rebel leader or the "King of the Jews".
....... The first Jewish Christian martyr, Stephen, was stoned to death by a Jewish mob instigated by the Jewish Temple authorities.(ACTS.7)
....... Saul of Tarsus arrested many early Jewish Christians and sent them to their death, eg crucified by the Roman rulers.

Keep in mind that at that time, only the Roman rulers had the authority to sentence people who were under their jurisdiction, to death, ie not the Jewish Temple authorities.

So, the advise/command of non-resistance at ROMANS.12 was directed at the early Christians who were being persecuted by the influential and powerful Jewish Temple authorities and/or the Roman rulers/government. The vengeance of God to "heap coals of fire on his head" came to pass in 70AD when the Jews were massacred and their Holy Temple of God at Jerusalem was destroyed.

Today, the powerful liberal Blue State governments have begun to prosecute/persecute Christian bakers, florists, wedding planners, etc, on behalf of their LGBTQ voter base. For such persecuted Christians, ROMANS.12 applies, ie "bless your persecutors".
....... In most other social interactions by Christians, the law of ni4ni or "love your neighbor/friend and hate your enemy" still applies. Jesus Christ did not come down to earth in 000AD/BC to destroy the Law.

What should US Christians do when the powerful US government requires them to receive the "mark of the beast", eg computer chip implants, in order to be able to buy or sell stuffs.?
.
.
P S - If our neighbor lets his dog poop in our yard, we should throw the dog-poop into his house or porch. In the meantime, be ready to defend ourselves and/or make a police report.

P P S - America lost the War-on-Terror to Muslim terrorists because she did not apply the law of ni4ni or "All is fair in love and war". USA did not learn her lesson after losing the Korean War and Vietnam War to communist terrorists.
....... Hence, at DAN.7:8, God refers to USA, the last superpower of the world, as a little horn.