Confession ...

[Albion]

If it weren't so sad... it would be funny.

A nervous little joke meant to sidestep my question?

 

[Thekla]

A sacrament is an efficacious sign of grace, instituted by Christ and entrusted to the Church, by which divine life is dispensed to us through the work of the Holy Spirit. The sacraments (called “mysteries” in the Eastern Churches) are seven in number: Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance or Reconciliation, Anointing of the Sick, Holy Orders, and Matrimony. (CCC Glossary)

Just to clarify, it is often said in the EO that there are many sacraments (mysterion) and these (that you mentioned) are seven of them. (This accords with the understanding of the goal is for life to become sacramental; it ties with Christ as fully human, fully divine - the Godman - and Him as the goal of our life if you will.)

 

[Mama Kidogo]

If it weren't so sad... it would be funny.

To be fair, he did say:"A slightly different definition of a sacrament goes something like this:".

 

[concretecamper]

A nervous little joke meant to sidestep my question?

OK...

Back up your claim on the definition. I will wait... and wait... and wait....

And please, do not ask me to prove that something that does not exist, does not exist .

But then again, you will have to do that since you will be unable to prove you claim.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

Just to clarify, it is often said in the EO that there are many sacraments (mysterion) and these (that you mentioned) are seven of them. (This accords with the understanding of the goal is for life to become sacramental; it ties with Christ as fully human, fully divine - the Godman - and Him as the goal of our life if you will.)

I've been waiting on something I could better agree with and this fits the bill.

 

[concretecamper]

To be fair, he did say:"A slightly different definition of a sacrament goes something like this:".

Really.... look at post #569.

 

[stan1953]

Orthodox confess before the clergy but confess to God. The priest then prays. God absolves.
There is Biblical instruction and authority given to the apostles.You don't think they took it with them do you?
So at what date did we fall away IYHO?

I actually don't know, and I don't study ECF's or church history enough to know when. I understand what does go on in the EOC and RCC, but IMHO, it is an error brought on by improper eisegesis of scripture.

1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

There is no doubt that the NT shows public confession as a result of turning from sin. In the Protestant church, the confession of salvation is made publicly, as it was in the NT.
James 5:16 is about a healing more than confession. Note it starts with "therefore".
1 John 1:9 is in the context of our relationship with Jesus as our savior so the confession is done to Him.

Sorry I see nowhere in the NT that 'confession' needs a human mediator to God.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Just to clarify, it is often said in the EO that there are many sacraments (mysterion) and these (that you mentioned) are seven of them. (This accords with the understanding of the goal is for life to become sacramental; it ties with Christ as fully human, fully divine - the Godman - and Him as the goal of our life if you will.)

I've been waiting on something I could better agree with and this fits the bill.

The seven are exemplars and the others are more subtle. For Catholics there are many sacraments but there are seven with specific rites in the church.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

I actually don't know, and I don't study ECF's or church history enough to know when. I understand what does go on in the EOC and RCC, but IMHO, it is an error brought on by improper eisegesis of scripture.

1 Tim 2:5
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

There is no doubt that the NT shows public confession as a result of turning from sin. In the Protestant church, the confession of salvation is made publicly, as it was in the NT.
James 5:16 is about a healing more than confession. Note it starts with "therefore".
1 John 1:9 is in the context of our relationship with Jesus as our savior so the confession is done to Him.

Sorry I see nowhere in the NT that 'confession' needs a human mediator to God.

"Needs' is too ambiguous to agree or disagree with. But prayer (intercession and even mediation)for someone in trouble is always wise.
What I can't find in scripture is how, if this were an error, how it is so grievous as to have the Church as fallen away. Is how we confess to God a deal breaker with God I missed in scripture?
I think we all needed and need a human mediator. Christ is one.

 

[Mama Kidogo]

The seven are exemplars and the others are more subtle. For Catholics there are many sacraments but there are seven with specific rites in the church.

I was not expecting that. I have learned something new today.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Sorry, not keeping up well. I have a headache today. I appreciate the info though.

I most appreciate the idea of living a sacramental life, if I understand what you mean by this. It reminds me of my attempts to keep my attention always on God, my work done for Him, my words and thought honoring to Him, in all ways at all times.

I fail miserably of course, but those few brief times I manage to come close to touching it - life is just so much more meaningful and "in order" that way.

 

[concretecamper]

Sorry, not keeping up well. I have a headache today. I appreciate the info though.

I most appreciate the idea of living a sacramental life, if I understand what you mean by this. It reminds me of my attempts to keep my attention always on God, my work done for Him, my words and thought honoring to Him, in all ways at all times.

I fail miserably of course, but those few brief times I manage to come close to touching it - life is just so much more meaningful and "in order" that way.

I thought this might shed some light on the sacraments.... of course from a RCC perspective.

From Trent:

DECREE ON THE SACRAMENTS

Proem.

For the completion of the salutary doctrine on Justification, which was promulgated with the unanimous consent of the Fathers in the last preceding Session, it hath seemed suitable to treat of the most holy Sacraments of the Church, through which all true justice either begins, or being begun is increased, or being lost is repaired. With this view, in order to destroy the errors and to extirpate the heresies, which have appeared [Page 54] in these our days on the subject of the said most holy sacraments,-as well those which have been revived from the heresies condemned of old by our Fathers, as also those newly invented, and which are exceedingly prejudicial to the purity of the Catholic Church, and to the salvation of souls,-the sacred and holy, ecumenical and general Synod of Trent, lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same legates of the Apostolic See presiding therein, adhering to the doctrine of the holy Scriptures, to the apostolic traditions, and to the consent of other councils and of the Fathers, has thought fit that these present canons be established and decreed; intending, the divine Spirit aiding, to publish later the remaining canons which are wanting for the completion of the work which It has begun.

 

[prodromos]

Speaking of confession, I'm on my way there now. I'm going to sit down with my spiritual GP and describe the various recurring symtoms I have as well as some unique non recurring symptoms. He is well acquanted with my spiritual his5ory and is able to diagnose pretty accurately my particular ilnesses and he will give me advice on how to treat my symptoms to the point where they no longer occur.
I'm looking forward to it.

 

[stan1953]

Speaking of confession, I'm on my way there now. I'm going to sit down with my spiritual GP and describe the various recurring symptoms I have as well as some unique non recurring symptoms. He is well acquainted with my spiritual history and is able to diagnose pretty accurately my particular illnesses and he will give me advice on how to treat my symptoms to the point where they no longer occur.
I'm looking forward to it.

You get the same priest all the time?

 

[Rhamiel]

You get the same priest all the time?

since in my location, each parish only has one priest, if you go to the same parish every time, you get the same priest every time

 

[prodromos]

You get the same priest all the time?

In the Orthodox Church, being a priest does not automatically make you a confessor. Some priests will never become confessors because they simply do not have the charismata from God, or the patience to hear the kind of rot we Christians allow ourselves to repeatedly fall into. I personally only know of four priests in Sydney who are confessors.

Off to a fresh start for Lent now

 

[prodromos]

In case you were wondering, confession is not anonymous in the Orthodox Church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

In case you were wondering, confession is not anonymous in the Orthodox Church.

Not anonymous as in the priest knows who you are? I thought they always did?

I'm guessing you don't mean not anonymous as in the whole church knows what you did.

Thanks for the information. I hadn't thought to ask.

I'm curious - if baptism is considered to be for the remission of sins, would one then confess of sins before baptism?

(And I was told there could be a provisional re-baptism if one isn't sure. So if one does not confess before baptism, I wonder if one would before provisional re-baptism?)

 

[~Anastasia~]

Speaking of confession, I'm on my way there now. I'm going to sit down with my spiritual GP and describe the various recurring symtoms I have as well as some unique non recurring symptoms. He is well acquanted with my spiritual his5ory and is able to diagnose pretty accurately my particular ilnesses and he will give me advice on how to treat my symptoms to the point where they no longer occur.
I'm looking forward to it.

I had meant to comment on this particularly.

I recently read that the Orthodox Church considers sin to be more of a problem needing healing, as in somewhat equated with sickness. I found that very interesting, since I have lately been noticing so many Scriptures that mention healing in conjunction with forgiveness.

I'm still thinking about this.

Are you saying that you describe physical symptoms to a priest by way of confession and receive spiritual advice that results in physical improvement?

Thank you for the post.

 

[MoreCoffee]

In case you were wondering, confession is not anonymous in the Orthodox Church.

In my parish one has a choice; confess face to face (which is the norm) or from behind a screen. Is such a choice available to Orthodox Christians?