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Confession without conviction

Carl Emerson

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In the sense that you mean conviction, I don't think I agree at all. We can take more responsibility for our own moral and ethical behaviour than that. A discipline such as an examen can be most useful.

If this approach is fruitful then is God not involved?

Neither of these things are what I said. Discernment is a gift, in a particular sense; but all of us must be discerning whether it is our gift or not. All of us must make choices (and seek to make good choices), all of us must recognise good from evil. That's not a hunch, it's a discipline.

So the conviction of sin, righteousness and judgement is replaced by your discipline?
 
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Paidiske

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If this approach is fruitful then is God not involved?

So the conviction of sin, righteousness and judgement is replaced by your discipline?

For someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit, why would we assume God is not involved?

What I am questioning is this idea that we have to have some kind of particular spiritual or emotional experience in order to recognise and confess our sin.
 
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Carl Emerson

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For someone indwelt by the Holy Spirit, why would we assume God is not involved?

What I am questioning is this idea that we have to have some kind of particular spiritual or emotional experience in order to recognise and confess our sin.

OK understand.

So what do you think conviction is then?
 
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Paidiske

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I don't see the need to give it any special, spiritualised meaning.

For John 16:8, which you alluded to above, the word the KJV translates as "convict" could just as well be translated "prove wrong," or "reprove," or "expose." The point is not about a personal interior experience, but about public evidence for Christ's claims.
 
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Paidiske

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So what the Holy Spirit does is not spiritual?

That verse is not talking about personal, interior conviction of a particular sin for the believer. It's talking about proving to "the world" that they were wrong about Christ.
 
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Paidiske

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Fine... so then you don't consider conviction spiritual?

I'm not even sure what you're trying to ask. Conviction in what sense?

In John 16:8, I don't think it's talking about what you've been trying to discuss in this thread.

I wouldn't want to say that, in general, conviction (in the sense of personal belief or of being convinced of something) is not spiritual, exactly, in that everything in Christian life is affected by the Spirit. But I don't read that word, in that context, to mean "a special, direct action of the Holy Spirit upon a person producing a particular emotional experience."
 
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Paidiske

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Do you believe that Christians receive the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit?

Yes, of course. I don't believe that means every Christian experiences that presence in the same way, though.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Nor do I, however one can do that without and specific conviction.

It is easy to go through the motions without engaging with God.

Do you think it is valid to confess a specific sin without conviction?

If you have sinned (and you have), then confess.

We are sinners, and that means there's a good chance we aren't going to feel the appropriate weight of our sin, because even our feelings are filled with sin. Recall the words of the Prophet Jeremiah,

"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" - Jeremiah 17:9

We can't trust our feelings, not even our "good" feelings--including the feeling of conviction over sin.

We can, however, trust in God's word.

So confess your sins, because you are a sinner. True contrition is not about having the right emotional experience, but rather in the humbling of ourselves. If we are confessing our sins then the Spirit is at work, and He renders our confession valid.

It's not about how we feel.
It's about God's Faithfulness toward us.

Just because I don't feel guilty doesn't mean I'm not guilty.
Just because I don't feel convicted doesn't mean I'm not convicted.

The guilty conviction has already been charged against us,

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23

But the free gift is justification by the grace of God, freely ours through faith in Jesus Christ our Lord. We can, therefore, boldly approach the throne of God's grace with full confidence, confessing our sins and trusting that He is "faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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John 16:13
But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.

Do you believe that the "you" here means you and me specifically and individually?

That the Holy Spirit will personally lead me to all truth?

Because I don't think that's what Jesus meant at all. I think Jesus was telling His Apostles--and the Church corporately--that the Spirit will be present in the Church, and the work and activity of the Church will keep us held together with the truth of Christ. Not as an individualistic experience of the Spirit, but by our corporate life together and participation in and as and through the Church; with the Church doing what the Church does: come and gather around Christ in Word and Sacrament.

The Holy Spirit isn't going to lead me to "all truth". But by faith in Jesus Christ and cleaving to Him and His promises, the Holy Spirit is absolutely at work holding me together in true faith; in the confession of the Creed, in the praying of the Lord's Prayer, in our Confession and Absolution, in the Holy Supper, in the promises and work of God in our baptism, etc.

The Holy Spirit is in me, but the way that He is in me is the same way He is in all of us; and thus He draws all of us, through Word and Sacrament, to Christ. To Christ who has said, "Come to Me all of you who weary and laden with burdens, and I will give you rest."

And therefore our comfort comes not by an interior experience of the Spirit, but in the external and objective Word of God: Jesus Christ our Lord, His Gospel, and all of God's promises. Word and Sacrament.

"Spiritual" does not mean "invisible" and "esoteric"; that is what would be describe as soulishness, which is of the flesh. Remember that when our bodies are transformed and made "spiritual" it refers to the power and life-giving work of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11), the "spiritual body" of the resurrection is precisely the same flesh, blood, and bones we have now, but transformed and quickened by the Holy Spirit. A new kind of bodily life and existence, but very much still bodily life and existence.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Carl Emerson

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Do you believe that the "you" here means you and me specifically and individually?

That the Holy Spirit will personally lead me to all truth?

Because I don't think that's what Jesus meant at all. I think Jesus was telling His Apostles--and the Church corporately--that the Spirit will be present in the Church, and the work and activity of the Church will keep us held together with the truth of Christ. Not as an individualistic experience of the Spirit, but by our corporate life together and participation in and as and through the Church; with the Church doing what the Church does: come and gather around Christ in Word and Sacrament.

The Holy Spirit isn't going to lead me to "all truth". But by faith in Jesus Christ and cleaving to Him and His promises, the Holy Spirit is absolutely at work holding me together in true faith; in the confession of the Creed, in the praying of the Lord's Prayer, in our Confession and Absolution, in the Holy Supper, in the promises and work of God in our baptism, etc.

The Holy Spirit is in me, but the way that He is in me is the same way He is in all of us; and thus He draws all of us, through Word and Sacrament, to Christ. To Christ who has said, "Come to Me all of you who weary and laden with burdens, and I will give you rest."

And therefore our comfort comes not by an interior experience of the Spirit, but in the external and objective Word of God: Jesus Christ our Lord, His Gospel, and all of God's promises. Word and Sacrament.

"Spiritual" does not mean "invisible" and "esoteric"; that is what would be describe as soulishness, which is of the flesh. Remember that when our bodies are transformed and made "spiritual" it refers to the power and life-giving work of the Holy Spirit (Romans 8:11), the "spiritual body" of the resurrection is precisely the same flesh, blood, and bones we have now, but transformed and quickened by the Holy Spirit. A new kind of bodily life and existence, but very much still bodily life and existence.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks for so beautifully expressing some of the systematic theology associated with your branch of the church.
We all have different experiences and traditions somewhat like the colours of the rainbow where the pure light of the Word is filtered out into beautiful colours depending on history and tradition.
We can however agree on foundational truths like the Nicean Creed agreed before the great divide.
My journey has been somewhat different as you are probably aware.
The Person of the Holy Spirit communing within individually is a very important aspect of my Christian experience.
 
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Paidiske

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I have also had a more charismatic background, and the personal experience of the Holy Spirit has been extremely important to me. But on this topic, I agree with ViaCrucis that to place the emphasis exclusively on personal pneumatic experience when it comes to confession/conviction is misguided. Not least because it then denies that these realities are active in the lives of believers who have a different experience.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Thanks for so beautifully expressing some of the systematic theology associated with your branch of the church.
We all have different experiences and traditions somewhat like the colours of the rainbow where the pure light of the Word is filtered out into beautiful colours depending on history and tradition.
We can however agree on foundational truths like the Nicean Creed agreed before the great divide.
My journey has been somewhat different as you are probably aware.
The Person of the Holy Spirit communing within individually is a very important aspect of my Christian experience.

That emphasis on the individual experience of the Spirit was very much a major part of my upbringing. I wasn't raised in a traditional Christian setting, that very much came later in life for me.

My first eight years of life were spent in my mom's non-denominational church, where she met my dad when he was leading a young adult/college age Bible study group. However we were forced out when I was 8 because of some very unsavory activities by some of the church leadership (not the pastor, but the pastor actually had very little control and input in the church, who was among the few people in that church who continued to stay in contact with my family afterward).

Following that we found a warm welcome at the local Foursquare congregation that met at the local YMCA. They were absolutely wonderful and lovely people who made us feel welcome and home. And it was in that church where most of my religious upbringing took place.

As I entered adolescence I went through many experiences, at the age of 12 a visiting evangelist laid hands on me to "baptize me with the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues", I was "slain in the Spirit" a number of times in my teenage years. Much of my life was spent focusing quite enthusiastically on my personal relationship with God, and trying to hear and experience the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I felt like the Holy Spirit was nearer than my own skin, and other times I felt like I was a trillion miles away from God. Like a yo-yo moving through spiritual highs and lows, attributing my highs as spiritual successes, and lows as spiritual losses. Such feelings were intensified by teachings about the need of bearing fruit, showing my sincerity of faith and belief through living a particular kind of lifestyle.

As much as I loved--and continue to love--everyone from that church, and I hold no ill-will toward anyone. The reality, for me, was that all of that was crushing my faith.

It's only been over the course of the last two decades since then that I've been able to understand both the spiritual and psychological harm that was going on.

I think Enthusiasm is actually very dangerous for the spiritual (as well as the psychological) health of the Christian.

And I'm not saying any of this to be combative or argumentative. This comes from a place of genuine concern, because I believe quite strongly that Enthusiasm is among one of the most dangerous ideas that is quite popular in modern Christianity.

Think about how many people post in the Christian Advice and New Christian boards who talk about how they don't "hear" God, or "feel" God, like the Christians they know talk about. Their lack of particular sorts of experiences is leading them to despair. Their questions come back to "am I really even saved?" "Is God angry at me?" and I read these questions and my heart absolutely breaks for them, because I know exactly how they feel, it's how I felt for years.

What saved me was the Gospel. That is obvious of course; but I mean that in a different sense also: The Gospel has saved my mind and my heart from the chaotic whirlwind of doubt, despair, and anxiety of trying to be spiritual.

And that's why I get very emphatic and even confrontational toward certain ideas. I don't want my brothers and sisters to be in the kind of place I was, a place of darkness surrounding God, because eyes were aimed inward rather than outward.

Which is also why when I talk about the joy of confession, and the life of repentance, and the beauty of the Eucharist, and the wonder of Baptism, I'm talking about that freedom that has come from not having to be a slave to my own mind and heart.

Jesus hasn't been made less real to me, but more real. It's like having spent so much of my life trying to peer through a dark cloud, with the vague and dreaded God hiding behind it--a God I could never really know--a God that I don't know that I was ever able to love. But here, where the Gospel is allowed to just be the Gospel, and where I know that no matter how I feel, no matter how many sins I have stacked on top of one another--regardless of my own subjective sense of the spiritual, that chains have been broken, the Son of God died for my sins, and I belong to Him.

Which is why I've written the posts I've written here, in the hope of allowing you to look at it from this angle.

The Lord has turned my mourning into dancing, I am free in the Spirit because my sins are forgiven and I belong to Jesus Christ, and I am guarded against every fiery dart of the evil one by the faith which God has granted me as pure gift.

I'm just a wretch and a beggar. I'm not a teacher, I'm not a theologian, I'm certainly not a pastor. I'm just a plain, regular, wretched sinner and a nobody. But I rejoice, because God loves the nobodies.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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bbbbbbb

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That emphasis on the individual experience of the Spirit was very much a major part of my upbringing. I wasn't raised in a traditional Christian setting, that very much came later in life for me.

My first eight years of life were spent in my mom's non-denominational church, where she met my dad when he was leading a young adult/college age Bible study group. However we were forced out when I was 8 because of some very unsavory activities by some of the church leadership (not the pastor, but the pastor actually had very little control and input in the church, who was among the few people in that church who continued to stay in contact with my family afterward).

Following that we found a warm welcome at the local Foursquare congregation that met at the local YMCA. They were absolutely wonderful and lovely people who made us feel welcome and home. And it was in that church where most of my religious upbringing took place.

As I entered adolescence I went through many experiences, at the age of 12 a visiting evangelist laid hands on me to "baptize me with the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues", I was "slain in the Spirit" a number of times in my teenage years. Much of my life was spent focusing quite enthusiastically on my personal relationship with God, and trying to hear and experience the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I felt like the Holy Spirit was nearer than my own skin, and other times I felt like I was a trillion miles away from God. Like a yo-yo moving through spiritual highs and lows, attributing my highs as spiritual successes, and lows as spiritual losses. Such feelings were intensified by teachings about the need of bearing fruit, showing my sincerity of faith and belief through living a particular kind of lifestyle.

As much as I loved--and continue to love--everyone from that church, and I hold no ill-will toward anyone. The reality, for me, was that all of that was crushing my faith.

It's only been over the course of the last two decades since then that I've been able to understand both the spiritual and psychological harm that was going on.

I think Enthusiasm is actually very dangerous for the spiritual (as well as the psychological) health of the Christian.

And I'm not saying any of this to be combative or argumentative. This comes from a place of genuine concern, because I believe quite strongly that Enthusiasm is among one of the most dangerous ideas that is quite popular in modern Christianity.

Think about how many people post in the Christian Advice and New Christian boards who talk about how they don't "hear" God, or "feel" God, like the Christians they know talk about. Their lack of particular sorts of experiences is leading them to despair. Their questions come back to "am I really even saved?" "Is God angry at me?" and I read these questions and my heart absolutely breaks for them, because I know exactly how they feel, it's how I felt for years.

What saved me was the Gospel. That is obvious of course; but I mean that in a different sense also: The Gospel has saved my mind and my heart from the chaotic whirlwind of doubt, despair, and anxiety of trying to be spiritual.

And that's why I get very emphatic and even confrontational toward certain ideas. I don't want my brothers and sisters to be in the kind of place I was, a place of darkness surrounding God, because eyes were aimed inward rather than outward.

Which is also why when I talk about the joy of confession, and the life of repentance, and the beauty of the Eucharist, and the wonder of Baptism, I'm talking about that freedom that has come from not having to be a slave to my own mind and heart.

Jesus hasn't been made less real to me, but more real. It's like having spent so much of my life trying to peer through a dark cloud, with the vague and dreaded God hiding behind it--a God I could never really know--a God that I don't know that I was ever able to love. But here, where the Gospel is allowed to just be the Gospel, and where I know that no matter how I feel, no matter how many sins I have stacked on top of one another--regardless of my own subjective sense of the spiritual, that chains have been broken, the Son of God died for my sins, and I belong to Him.

Which is why I've written the posts I've written here, in the hope of allowing you to look at it from this angle.

The Lord has turned my mourning into dancing, I am free in the Spirit because my sins are forgiven and I belong to Jesus Christ, and I am guarded against every fiery dart of the evil one by the faith which God has granted me as pure gift.

I'm just a wretch and a beggar. I'm not a teacher, I'm not a theologian, I'm certainly not a pastor. I'm just a plain, regular, wretched sinner and a nobody. But I rejoice, because God loves the nobodies.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you. I quite agree with you about the danger of Enthusiasm. We had a young lady in our church who married a young man who seemed to be a fine Christian. Within a year of marriage they entered wholeheartedly into the Enthusiasm of his stepfather, denounced our church publicly as unspiritual and then proceeded on a downward spiral to a current condition where both have abandoned the Christian faith and embraced their personal vision of a spiritual relationship with God.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I have also had a more charismatic background, and the personal experience of the Holy Spirit has been extremely important to me. But on this topic, I agree with ViaCrucis that to place the emphasis exclusively on personal pneumatic experience when it comes to confession/conviction is misguided. Not least because it then denies that these realities are active in the lives of believers who have a different experience.

I agree that the realities are active in all believers but some heed them and some don't.
 
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Paidiske

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I agree that the realities are active in all believers but some heed them and some don't.

That comes across as very denigrating of people whose experience is different to yours.
 
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Carl Emerson

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That emphasis on the individual experience of the Spirit was very much a major part of my upbringing. I wasn't raised in a traditional Christian setting, that very much came later in life for me.

My first eight years of life were spent in my mom's non-denominational church, where she met my dad when he was leading a young adult/college age Bible study group. However we were forced out when I was 8 because of some very unsavory activities by some of the church leadership (not the pastor, but the pastor actually had very little control and input in the church, who was among the few people in that church who continued to stay in contact with my family afterward).

Following that we found a warm welcome at the local Foursquare congregation that met at the local YMCA. They were absolutely wonderful and lovely people who made us feel welcome and home. And it was in that church where most of my religious upbringing took place.

As I entered adolescence I went through many experiences, at the age of 12 a visiting evangelist laid hands on me to "baptize me with the Holy Spirit with evidence of speaking in tongues", I was "slain in the Spirit" a number of times in my teenage years. Much of my life was spent focusing quite enthusiastically on my personal relationship with God, and trying to hear and experience the Holy Spirit. Sometimes I felt like the Holy Spirit was nearer than my own skin, and other times I felt like I was a trillion miles away from God. Like a yo-yo moving through spiritual highs and lows, attributing my highs as spiritual successes, and lows as spiritual losses. Such feelings were intensified by teachings about the need of bearing fruit, showing my sincerity of faith and belief through living a particular kind of lifestyle.

As much as I loved--and continue to love--everyone from that church, and I hold no ill-will toward anyone. The reality, for me, was that all of that was crushing my faith.

It's only been over the course of the last two decades since then that I've been able to understand both the spiritual and psychological harm that was going on.

I think Enthusiasm is actually very dangerous for the spiritual (as well as the psychological) health of the Christian.

And I'm not saying any of this to be combative or argumentative. This comes from a place of genuine concern, because I believe quite strongly that Enthusiasm is among one of the most dangerous ideas that is quite popular in modern Christianity.

Think about how many people post in the Christian Advice and New Christian boards who talk about how they don't "hear" God, or "feel" God, like the Christians they know talk about. Their lack of particular sorts of experiences is leading them to despair. Their questions come back to "am I really even saved?" "Is God angry at me?" and I read these questions and my heart absolutely breaks for them, because I know exactly how they feel, it's how I felt for years.

What saved me was the Gospel. That is obvious of course; but I mean that in a different sense also: The Gospel has saved my mind and my heart from the chaotic whirlwind of doubt, despair, and anxiety of trying to be spiritual.

And that's why I get very emphatic and even confrontational toward certain ideas. I don't want my brothers and sisters to be in the kind of place I was, a place of darkness surrounding God, because eyes were aimed inward rather than outward.

Which is also why when I talk about the joy of confession, and the life of repentance, and the beauty of the Eucharist, and the wonder of Baptism, I'm talking about that freedom that has come from not having to be a slave to my own mind and heart.

Jesus hasn't been made less real to me, but more real. It's like having spent so much of my life trying to peer through a dark cloud, with the vague and dreaded God hiding behind it--a God I could never really know--a God that I don't know that I was ever able to love. But here, where the Gospel is allowed to just be the Gospel, and where I know that no matter how I feel, no matter how many sins I have stacked on top of one another--regardless of my own subjective sense of the spiritual, that chains have been broken, the Son of God died for my sins, and I belong to Him.

Which is why I've written the posts I've written here, in the hope of allowing you to look at it from this angle.

The Lord has turned my mourning into dancing, I am free in the Spirit because my sins are forgiven and I belong to Jesus Christ, and I am guarded against every fiery dart of the evil one by the faith which God has granted me as pure gift.

I'm just a wretch and a beggar. I'm not a teacher, I'm not a theologian, I'm certainly not a pastor. I'm just a plain, regular, wretched sinner and a nobody. But I rejoice, because God loves the nobodies.

-CryptoLutheran

Well we all have different journeys.

Pleased to meet another 'nobody'

I knew God was real by what I saw of creation by the age of four.

Mum was RC and Dad was salvation army. They were both excommunicated and there was only 5 at the wedding - the taxi driver was the witness.

At about 8 Jesus appeared to me and said that there was nothing in this life that I would do He wouldn't see.

At thirteen I knew my time had come to give over my life to His control and get born again... I still remember the prayer I prayed, lying face down on the gavel at a lonely spot on the edge of Lake Wanaka. "Lord I know I have always been yours, but there comes a time when I must say sorry for running my own life and give you control. I give you my all and ask you to come in and take over." At the moment I heard footsteps coming towards me on the gravel - when I looked up there was no one there - but I was never the same from that moment.

I got baptised at 16, my faith felt like a thin thread, I was a recluse.

Friends worried about me and thought I needed a lady friend - I went to a dance and found to my surprise that someone with intelligence would talk to me. In those days the sum total of my pre-marriage council was my dad saying 'are you sure you are doing the right thing.' We were engaged four years and married seven. Sadly there was a deep incompatibility, she couldn't share my faith. She looked for other partners and ended up living with one of my best friends. Meantime I became very lost and confused, so much that I was admitted to a mental ward and administered ECT. I remember being in a vegetable state at this time on powerful anti-psycotic drugs.

But - Folks prayed - I was released and knew inside that the way back was to return to my Christian roots. So I took off up country to find Him again.

On the wharf at Collingwood it was like He picked me up by the scruff of the neck, gave me a shake and said in no uncertain terms 'These are the rails, stay on them' So my prodigal return of seven years began, much healing prayer, much to learn.

I knew the Bible had to be central to my perception of reality. I read the Scripture prayerfully for over 5 years with no other input.

During this time the fresh breath of God hit the church in the 70's I witnessed many outstanding miracles and my faith grew.

In time I started praying for folks and they were healed.

You can read about this here...

Jesus's Ministry

I naturally gravitated towards those struggling as I had been so marvellously restored. I helped to run a 24 hour open house and drop in centre in the centre city. We would have 25 folks from all different churches breaking bread together while we witnessed spontaneous healings.

Jesus led me to get married and we have 5 children.

Am I enthusiastic about my faith - you bet...

I enjoy a restored life of blessing and walk with Him in excitement and joy.

I am a 'nobody' but enjoy the privilege of sharing in His purpose to see others set free by the power of His Spirit.

I am now 75 and have much yet to do with Him.

I love Jesus and I have waited 40 years to begin to share my story.
 
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