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Confession without conviction

Carl Emerson

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I guess I'm not really sure what it is you want, Carl. Are you arguing for removing confession from the liturgy in case people don't "feel" it that day?

Seriously - how do you get that from my question?
 
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zippy2006

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I guess I'm not really sure what it is you want, Carl. Are you arguing for removing confession from the liturgy in case people don't "feel" it that day?

Apparently his concern is that people should not say things if they don't mean them.

As I ponder this matter I realise I am being expected to confess without conviction.

What are the words that you are supposed to say in the liturgy?
 
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Paidiske

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Seriously - how do you get that from my question?

You seem to be saying that "ritual" confession is bad. Since you agree that there's no way for us to make sure people have a particular emotional experience on cue, I'm not sure what it is you want to do instead.
 
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Carl Emerson

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You seem to be saying that "ritual" confession is bad. Since you agree that there's no way for us to make sure people have a particular emotional experience on cue, I'm not sure what it is you want to do instead.

I'm not asking anyone to do anything.

However I have invited discussion on confession without conviction and if folks think it is valid.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It's always valid for us to acknowledge our sin before God. I don't know why it wouldn't be.

Nor do I, however one can do that without and specific conviction.

It is easy to go through the motions without engaging with God.

Do you think it is valid to confess a specific sin without conviction?
 
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Paidiske

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Do you think it is valid to confess a specific sin without conviction?

I don't really know what you mean here. Liturgical confession isn't specific.
 
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zippy2006

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This thread is meant to be more broad than matters of Liturgy.

Any comments from anyone?

Is confession valid without conviction?

Contrition is supposed to accompany confession, and in the OP you say that your new church does emphasize contrition. I'm not sure what you mean by "conviction." What is important is that you have contrition and that you are not lying when you confess. It's not clear to me what it would mean to confess with contrition, but lack conviction.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Sorry, I assumed we understood the biblical meaning.

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin righteousness and judgement.

Conviction comes from an encounter with God's Spirit.

Conviction usually includes becoming shameful of an act.
 
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zippy2006

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Okay, so if by conviction we mean "to feel ashamed" then I think it would probably be required for confession. Contrition means to feel sorrow, which I think is more on target, but a certain amount of healthy shame would probably also be present ('guilt' might be a better word).

You definitely have to feel sorry for what you did and believe that you have done something wrong.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Okay, so if by conviction we mean "to feel ashamed" then I think it would probably be required for confession. Contrition means to feel sorrow, which I think is more on target, but a certain amount of healthy shame would probably also be present ('guilt' might be a better word).

You definitely have to feel sorry for what you did and believe that you have done something wrong.

Do you believe that for this to be genuine then, it is a work of God's Spirit?
 
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Paidiske

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I just don't think it's about how we feel, whether that's guilt or shame or sorrow or whatever.

People can feel guilt over things for which they are not actually morally culpable, in which case their conviction is misplaced. On the other hand, people can fairly dispassionately recognise that they have been unloving in their treatment of another, and confess that with true intention to amend their ways.

Discernment needs to hold our actions, attitudes etc. up against an objective standard, not against our emotional state.
 
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Carl Emerson

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I just don't think it's about how we feel, whether that's guilt or shame or sorrow or whatever.

People can feel guilt over things for which they are not actually morally culpable, in which case their conviction is misplaced. On the other hand, people can fairly dispassionately recognise that they have been unloving in their treatment of another, and confess that with true intention to amend their ways.

Discernment needs to hold our actions, attitudes etc. up against an objective standard, not against our emotional state.

Yes I agree there is a need for discernment.

Do you mean a discernment gift needs to be operating ?

What objective standard do you have in mind?

It seems then we have agreement that one can confess without a God given conviction.
 
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Paidiske

Clara bonam audax
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Do you mean a discernment gift needs to be operating ?

Not necessarily. All of us have to exercise discernment, whether it's our particular gift or not.

What objective standard do you have in mind?

I mean some kind of clear sense of what sin is, so that we can look at our own behaviours or attitudes against that sense, and see how it measures up. I'm not fond of a checklist of sins, but some sort of sense of whether or not something fails to love God or neighbour is a useful basic starting point.

It seems then we have agreement that one can confess without a God given conviction.

You did not seem to think so before; have the posts made here convinced you?
 
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Carl Emerson

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I said...

"It seems then we have agreement that one can confess without a God given conviction."

You did not seem to think so before; have the posts made here convinced you?

I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

I was meaning to agree with you that one can make a false confession for whatever reason - in this case God's conviction is not involved.

It seems then that confession without God's conviction is not valid.

Personally I think this is quite common.

All of us have to exercise discernment, whether it's our particular gift or not.

Really??? So discernment is not a gift, just a human hunch??
 
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Paidiske

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It seems then that confession without God's conviction is not valid.

In the sense that you mean conviction, I don't think I agree at all. We can take more responsibility for our own moral and ethical behaviour than that. A discipline such as an examen can be most useful.

Really??? So discernment is not a gift, just a human hunch??

Neither of these things are what I said. Discernment is a gift, in a particular sense; but all of us must be discerning whether it is our gift or not. All of us must make choices (and seek to make good choices), all of us must recognise good from evil. That's not a hunch, it's a discipline.
 
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