Confession without conviction

[Carl Emerson]

That comes across as very denigrating of people whose experience is different to yours.

Then sadly you fail to read my heart.

 

[Paidiske]

Then sadly you fail to read my heart.

Okay, let me put it another way. It comes across as you suggesting that only experience which aligns with yours is really valid. Other people, who don't have that experience, seem to be deficient in your view.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Okay, let me put it another way. It comes across as you suggesting that only experience which aligns with yours is really valid. Other people, who don't have that experience, seem to be deficient in your view.

As you know, we all tend to project ourselves onto other people, usually quite unconsciously. I frequently am startled when that happens to me. I have had some really bizarre rumors spread about me with no basis in reality - and I am really quite innocuous and out of the public eye, unlike such people as yourself.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well we all have different journeys.

Pleased to meet another 'nobody'

I knew God was real by what I saw of creation by the age of four.

Mum was RC and Dad was salvation army. They were both excommunicated and there was only 5 at the wedding - the taxi driver was the witness.

At about 8 Jesus appeared to me and said that there was nothing in this life that I would do He wouldn't see.

At thirteen I knew my time had come to give over my life to His control and get born again... I still remember the prayer I prayed, lying face down on the gavel at a lonely spot on the edge of Lake Wanaka. "Lord I know I have always been yours, but there comes a time when I must say sorry for running my own life and give you control. I give you my all and ask you to come in and take over." At the moment I heard footsteps coming towards me on the gravel - when I looked up there was no one there - but I was never the same from that moment.

I got baptised at 16, my faith felt like a thin thread, I was a recluse.

Friends worried about me and thought I needed a lady friend - I went to a dance and found to my surprise that someone with intelligence would talk to me. In those days the sum total of my pre-marriage council was my dad saying 'are you sure you are doing the right thing.' We were engaged four years and married seven. Sadly there was a deep incompatibility, she couldn't share my faith. She looked for other partners and ended up living with one of my best friends. Meantime I became very lost and confused, so much that I was admitted to a mental ward and administered ECT. I remember being in a vegetable state at this time on powerful anti-psycotic drugs.

But - Folks prayed - I was released and knew inside that the way back was to return to my Christian roots. So I took off up country to find Him again.

On the wharf at Collingwood it was like He picked me up by the scruff of the neck, gave me a shake and said in no uncertain terms 'These are the rails, stay on them' So my prodigal return of seven years began, much healing prayer, much to learn.

I knew the Bible had to be central to my perception of reality. I read the Scripture prayerfully for over 5 years with no other input.

During this time the fresh breath of God hit the church in the 70's I witnessed many outstanding miracles and my faith grew.

In time I started praying for folks and they were healed.

You can read about this here...

Jesus's Ministry

I naturally gravitated towards those struggling as I had been so marvellously restored. I helped to run a 24 hour open house and drop in centre in the centre city. We would have 25 folks from all different churches breaking bread together while we witnessed spontaneous healings.

Jesus led me to get married and we have 5 children.

Am I enthusiastic about my faith - you bet...

I enjoy a restored life of blessing and walk with Him in excitement and joy.

I am a 'nobody' but enjoy the privilege of sharing in His purpose to see others set free by the power of His Spirit.

I am now 75 and have much yet to do with Him.

I love Jesus and I have waited 40 years to begin to share my story.

I appreciate you sharing your story. And while reading it I want you to know that I put thought into what you were saying and sharing. Your struggles and lows--and your survival through them--are truly a testimony of the beauty of God's grace.

I spent some time thinking about what I'd want to say, or ask here. The only question that really comes to mind is this: If it turned out that all of these experiences weren't real, if it wasn't Jesus you felt, or heard, or experienced in those moments--could you still, would you still, trust Him? The other way to phrase that is, to what degree do you build your faith in Jesus on those experiences?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

Okay, let me put it another way. It comes across as you suggesting that only experience which aligns with yours is really valid. Other people, who don't have that experience, seem to be deficient in your view.

No. in all honesty I wanted to explore the issue because folks say sorry on demand and I was hoping for fruitfull discussion on the issue.

 

[Paidiske]

No. in all honesty I wanted to explore the issue because folks say sorry on demand and I was hoping for fruitfull discussion on the issue.

I guess I still don't see why it's an issue at all. So people confess corporately. Why is that a problem?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I appreciate you sharing your story. And while reading it I want you to know that I put thought into what you were saying and sharing. Your struggles and lows--and your survival through them--are truly a testimony of the beauty of God's grace.

I spent some time thinking about what I'd want to say, or ask here. The only question that really comes to mind is this: If it turned out that all of these experiences weren't real, if it wasn't Jesus you felt, or heard, or experienced in those moments--could you still, would you still, trust Him? The other way to phrase that is, to what degree do you build your faith in Jesus on those experiences?

-CryptoLutheran

Heaven and Earth will pass away but His Word will remain. Faith then is not dependent on us but Him.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I guess I still don't see why it's an issue at all. So people confess corporately. Why is that a problem?

I tried to raise the question of the place for individual honesty and personal conviction in confession.

Actually it equally applies in our devotional life.

Say a friend claims you have sinned - do you confess on the basis of his claim?

Of course not...

 

[Paidiske]

I tried to raise the question of the place for individual honesty and personal conviction in confession.

But your question presupposes that that honesty and conviction is absent in corporate/liturgical confession, or at least not sufficiently present (as attested by a particular spiritual experience).

I'm pushing back against that implication.

 

[Carl Emerson]

But your question presupposes that that honesty and conviction is absent in corporate/liturgical confession, or at least not sufficiently present (as attested by a particular spiritual experience).

I'm pushing back against that implication.

That is not the fundamental issue...

Again I ask

Say a friend claims you have sinned - do you confess on the basis of his claim?

 

[Paidiske]

Say a friend claims you have sinned - do you confess on the basis of his claim?

I would examine the claim for its merit.

But if my friend claims, not a specific sin, but that I have sinned in general, well, I know that to be true anyway. I don't need to re-examine that claim each time it comes up.

I still really do not see what your issue is.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Heaven and Earth will pass away but His Word will remain. Faith then is not dependent on us but Him.

Amen.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

I would examine the claim for its merit.

But if my friend claims, not a specific sin, but that I have sinned in general, well, I know that to be true anyway. I don't need to re-examine that claim each time it comes up.

I still really do not see what your issue is.

Maybe you could just watch on the sideline and others might be prepared to engage on the issue...

 

[Pavel Mosko]

@Carl Emerson I don't confession is vain in the sense of the Bible uses which is that people out of fear, worry etc. keep asking God for things etc. because they are a afraid he may not hear or forget like a pagan God, or that he might be stingy, or lazy and has to be nagged through repetition.


At a personal level etc. it might seem vain for some that aren't feeling it etc. There is some onus on people to try to pay attention, participate, and not just go through the motions so they can have their Sunday worship ticket punched etc. I like the saying from my first book on Orthodoxy, Becoming Orthodoxy, by Peter Quilquist on the notion of things like "dead churches" or liturgy he said "There are no dead churches. There can be dead people, but the Good News of the Gospel is the dead can be brought back to life!"


I'm sure things probably can be improved etc. Other churches have things like private confession, accountability groups etc. And if you wanted to start some kind of Promise Keepers or other kind of group that might be good. I do know it can be tricky. It was the unforgiveness, immaturity, and general tendency of common church folk to stigmatize people over their public confession, which eventually made confession private in your Catholic and Orthodox churches going back to classical times. (The presbyter in the Biblical sense is still however considered a witness on behalf of the community).

 

[Veloman]

Confession without conviction ought not be practiced. The bible says that those who are penitent when confessing their sins--this is what repentance is, literally a change of heart. I would also say to anyone who sins and has no conviction about it as being wrong/sin needs to perform a thorough examination of why they have a lack of conscious--i.e. are they REALLY a Christian?