Confession without conviction

[Carl Emerson]

If the conviction is not there, perhaps the confession is designed to help form that conviction?

After all, 1 John 1:8 comes to mind.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit of course. It would be interesting to know how many experience Godly Sorrow about specific issues during the time of silence before confession.

 

[Paidiske]

But of course we believe the Holy Spirit animates all of our worship.

I don't know that I think it needs to be about specific issues at that point in time. Is it not enough to acknowledge our sin, our failures to love God and neighbour, in general?

 

[Carl Emerson]

But of course we believe the Holy Spirit animates all of our worship.

I don't know that I think it needs to be about specific issues at that point in time. Is it not enough to acknowledge our sin, our failures to love God and neighbour, in general?

Yes of course, that as well...

It would be interesting to know the prevalence of Godly Sorrow before confession.

 

[childeye 2]

Hi There,

Recently we were called to serve in a liturgical church.

One of the matters I have wrestled with in this new environment (for me) is the strong emphasis on confession and contrition and the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him.

As I ponder this matter I realise I am being expected to confess without conviction.

I am interested in a discussion on this as I am very aware that our adversary can bind us up in condemnation that we think is conviction, and render us fruitless as we over focus on our imperfections rather than rejoice in being made whole.

While the liturgy beautifully preserves the fundamental truths of the faith it seems to fail in the area of encouraging Joy which after all should be a fundamental strength.

Comments greatly appreciated.

I believe it's the Holy Spirit Who convicts me of sin, and He uses the reasoning of love others as yourself to do it. I'm not only learning how to Love others as myself, I'm learning that God is the Love that does it.

So the problem I see with confession under an Old Testament mindset, is that since it's God Who showed me I sinned and without Him I wouldn't even see it, it's not logical for me to be seeking absolution when I'm sincerely thanking God for showing me where I sinned. In regards to justification, I confess Christ as Lord and Savior because apart from God, I can't not sin in this carnal body.

The point is, to be truly sorry for something, one has to regret doing it. If I truly regret doing it, then there's something I see or know now, that I didn't see or know at the time I did it, otherwise I wouldn't have done it in the first place.

In view of this, it makes no sense that contrition is about beating myself up over something I did that was wrong. Hanging on to guilt is just my pride, whereas Godly sorrow came from being shown the hurt that others had to suffer due to my ignorance. Rather than beating myself up and making it all about my shame or shaming others, it makes better sense to me, to be quick to forgive others wholeheartedly when they sin against me, believing one day they too will regret what they did in their ignorance. And I find a pure joy in doing that.

 

[GreekOrthodox]

It is the work of the Holy Spirit of course. It would be interesting to know how many experience Godly Sorrow about specific issues during the time of silence before confession.

What joy it was to hear the pastor say, "Upon this your confession, I, by virtue of my office, as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God unto all of you who do heartily repent of your sins, believe in Jesus Christ, and sincerely and earnestly intend by the help of God the Holy Ghost henceforth to amend your sinful lives, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins, in the name of ✠ the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

The Orthodox absolution during communion is similar but short, "The servant of God (Name) partakes of the Body and Blood of Christ for the remission of sins and life eternal." After all have communed, "Wash away, Lord, by Your Holy Blood, the sins of Your servants here remembered through the intercessions of the Theotokos and all Your saints. Amen."

 

[Carl Emerson]

Some great responses thanks...

For me the sense of knowing my best is miles away from His perfection is always with me.

So is the sense that I cant not sin at any instant...

But these matters are eclipsed by the knowledge of His Love and acceptance by His sacrifice for me on the Cross.

For that reason I see little merit in stating the obvious at confession time as this would seem more of a ritual than reality.

I hold very dearly the notion that I walk in celebration with Him

Romans 5 states this very well...

Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we also have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we celebrate in hope of the glory of God.

 

[Aussie Pete]

I think, for me, part of making sense of confession as a routine part of liturgical worship is understanding where it fits in the service.

For example, in my tradition, we put confession near the start of the service; we gather, we acknowledge our sin, we are assured of God's forgiveness, and from that assurance we then go on to praise God and to reflect on Scripture and receive communion. The structure of the liturgy shows us that our joy - expressed in praise - is fed by our sins having been forgiven, and that our sin being dealt with opens our ability to be nurtured in faith. Putting confession up front then allows us to walk in celebration through the rest of the service.

I don't know if that's a helpful perspective?

In my three years of enforced Anglicanism, it never got to the joy part. It was summed up perfectly for me - "Te Deum", which I and countless others pronounced "tedium". A few years ago I attended an Anglican church near where I live and it was much different, I'm glad to say.

 

[The Liturgist]

In my three years of enforced Anglicanism, it never got to the joy part. It was summed up perfectly for me - "Te Deum", which I and countless others pronounced "tedium". A few years ago I attended an Anglican church near where I live and it was much different, I'm glad to say.

Well, Anglicanism can be hit or miss in terms of liturgics, because there are different liturgical styles related to churchmanship, and different skill levels within these traditions. The Te Deum Laudamus is one of my favorite canticles, but, for it to sound good, you need a parish with a decent choir, ideally a parochial school so you get a boys’ choir, which is required in order to properly realize most of the great composers who have set Anglican services to music, from Byrd and Tallis to S.S. Wesley, to Dyson, Howells and Sumsion, whose work was composed for boy choristers and gentlemen clerks.

In the US, very few Anglican or Episcopalian parishes have these resources. The National Cathedral and St. Thomas 5th Street in New York have them, but I don’t think The Old North Church in Boston, which is of extreme fame and historical importance due to its role in the outbreak of hostilities with Great Britain has such resources, as an example. Whereas in the UK, all cathedrals and some parish churches have such resources. I don’t know what Australia has now; in the past, these resources were much more widespread in the UK than they are today, and I also haven’t read A Prayerbook for Australia, just the miserable service book used by the Archdiocese of New South Wales, so I would imagine your experience could vary dramatically. Ironically, the principle cathedral in Syndney in 2000 was featured on BBC Radio Three and did a splendid job, so if I lived in downtown Sydney I would probably go there, if I lived in one of @Paidiske ‘s parishes I’d probably go there, but otherwise it would really depend on the quality of the music program and whether or not they had a said service. During my brief period of Episcopalianism, I always did the said service because the music director of my friends parish was a well educated man of good intentions, but the music program as a whole just was not working for me at all. There was a lovely lady who was the immensely talented organist at a nearby Methodist church, which had a much better music program; before she retired I went there a few times just to hear her play, as she used Bach fugues as postludes.

 

[Paidiske]

Generally good boys' choirs would be something I would only expect to find in Cathedrals here. Perhaps one or two of the most privileged parishes in a major city. That said, even so that style of music is very much an acquired taste, and many people don't acquire it. I don't think that really needs to be the benchmark of good Anglicanism.

(Side note: the Archdiocese of Sydney does not cover, even as metropolitan, all of New South Wales. I'm in New South Wales and my metropolitan is the Archbishop of Melbourne).

But if I understand Carl Emerson's concern, it is less about the aesthetic value of the service, and more about the personal/emotional experience of the Spirit, and that is something somewhat outside our control.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Generally good boys' choirs would be something I would only expect to find in Cathedrals here. Perhaps one or two of the most privileged parishes in a major city. That said, even so that style of music is very much an acquired taste, and many people don't acquire it. I don't think that really needs to be the benchmark of good Anglicanism.

(Side note: the Archdiocese of Sydney does not cover, even as metropolitan, all of New South Wales. I'm in New South Wales and my metropolitan is the Archbishop of Melbourne).

But if I understand Carl Emerson's concern, it is less about the aesthetic value of the service, and more about the personal/emotional experience of the Spirit, and that is something somewhat outside our control.

My initial experience was in the town of Buckingham, England. About 30 people attended, mostly boys from the nearby boarding school. The school is still around but no longer takes boarders. We were required to attend in order to get the rest of the day off. Some boarders were able to go home for the weekend. My family was an 8 hour plane flight away. So we endured it. If it was intended to help the young convert to become real Christians, it had the opposite effect. After I was born again, it soon became apparent that I needed to go to church. I went into the only one I knew which was the Cathedral in Sydney. I went through the door, took one look and went out again. Just down the road is Central Baptist. And that's where I ended up for the next 3 years or so.

 

[Carl Emerson]

As an aside for interest, I was a boy soprano and used to sing Laudate Dominum (among others) in the 60's.
Our present organist has a Phd in music and a lovely heart so he plays my favourites as the service closes.
We do have a healthy fellowship and some very fine souls in our midst.

 

[Paidiske]

I needed to go to church. I went into the only one I knew which was the Cathedral in Sydney. I went through the door, took one look and went out again.

My first student placement, when I was in seminary, was in Melbourne's Cathedral. I spent most of the year miserable; it took a long time to feel my way into the worship. Cathedral style worship truly is not for everyone, even amongst Anglicans!

 

[ViaCrucis]

Hi There,

Recently we were called to serve in a liturgical church.

One of the matters I have wrestled with in this new environment (for me) is the strong emphasis on confession and contrition and the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him.

As I ponder this matter I realise I am being expected to confess without conviction.

I am interested in a discussion on this as I am very aware that our adversary can bind us up in condemnation that we think is conviction, and render us fruitless as we over focus on our imperfections rather than rejoice in being made whole.

While the liturgy beautifully preserves the fundamental truths of the faith it seems to fail in the area of encouraging Joy which after all should be a fundamental strength.

Comments greatly appreciated.

I find the sentiment that a focus on confession and contrition as being joyless perplexing. One of the most joyful experiences for me in the liturgy is the Penitential Rite, because at that moment when confession meets absolution I am forgiven. I have never felt so free as putting my trust in the forgiveness of God that is found in confession of my sins. I consider it second only to the precious joy of the Holy Eucharist itself and the joy of remembering God's promises in my baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Carl Emerson]

I find the sentiment that a focus on confession and contrition as being joyless perplexing. One of the most joyful experiences for me in the liturgy is the Penitential Rite, because at that moment when confession meets absolution I am forgiven. I have never felt so free as putting my trust in the forgiveness of God that is found in confession of my sins. I consider it second only to the precious joy of the Holy Eucharist itself and the joy of remembering God's promises in my baptism.

-CryptoLutheran

That is not what I said...

What I said was "the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him..."

Do you personally find that in that time of silence before confession, the Holy Spirit brings a personal awareness of specific sin to confess and renounce ??

 

[ViaCrucis]

That is not what I said...

What I said was "the lack of emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him..."

I don't understand what the difference is. How does an emphasis on confession and contrition not amount to an emphasis on walking in celebration of life daily with Him?

It is precisely there in Word and Sacrament that I am face to face with Jesus Christ and the entirety of God's overwhelming love, forgiveness, and grace. That is an infinitely large ocean of joy.

Repentance brings forth joy, the joy of forgiveness of our sins. That is the celebration of our life with Him. The cross always leads to the empty tomb, it's the only way to get there.

Do you personally find that in that time of silence before confession, the Holy Spirit brings a personal awareness of specific sin to confess and renounce ??

Sometimes, sometimes not. But confession isn't about remembering each and every little sin, there's no way I could do that. I can hardly remember what I ate for breakfast some days, let alone the zillion little sins that I've done when I wasn't even thinking.

Nevertheless, the promise of God connected to our confession means the forgiveness of sins.

I am forgiven of what I did not even know I needed forgiveness for. Crux probat omnia, the cross plumbs, measures, probes everything.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Paidiske]

I suspect, based on not only this conversation, but a lot of other conversations I've had, that for a lot of people, it boils down to this:

Does my experience of the liturgy emphasise that I am bad, or that I am good? Does it inculcate shame, guilt and anxiety, or confidence, joy and peace?

For some people - and I emphasise that it is not universal - emphasis on contrition, confession, repentance and so on, seems to be experienced as the message "You are bad. You are shameful, guilty, irreparably alienated from God." For these people, the absolution, the message of grace, is not cutting through and what they take away is something which pushes them towards a form of despair.

I suspect, based on Carl's posts, that he is experiencing, or at least concerned about, something along these lines?

 

[Carl Emerson]

I suspect, based on not only this conversation, but a lot of other conversations I've had, that for a lot of people, it boils down to this:

Does my experience of the liturgy emphasise that I am bad, or that I am good? Does it inculcate shame, guilt and anxiety, or confidence, joy and peace?

For some people - and I emphasise that it is not universal - emphasis on contrition, confession, repentance and so on, seems to be experienced as the message "You are bad. You are shameful, guilty, irreparably alienated from God." For these people, the absolution, the message of grace, is not cutting through and what they take away is something which pushes them towards a form of despair.

I suspect, based on Carl's posts, that he is experiencing, or at least concerned about, something along these lines?

Mmmm... not exactly, I am more concerned about repeating ritual becoming a substitute experiencing a living interaction with God.

I figured that asking about confession being disconnected from conviction might indicate if this was a common issue or not...

 

[Paidiske]

I don't really understand that concern, to be honest. In some seasons of life we have a vibrant experience of God, and in some we don't. Some of the most holy people of the past have wrestled with that sense of absence at a deep level, for long periods of time. We can't make the Spirit show up and give us the experience we think we should have.

We can keep faithfully showing up, making ourselves available, attending to and worshipping God, and being open to what the Spirit will do. Refusing to do that because on any given day it's not setting off personal spiritual fireworks seems... off, somehow.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I don't really understand that concern, to be honest. In some seasons of life we have a vibrant experience of God, and in some we don't. Some of the most holy people of the past have wrestled with that sense of absence at a deep level, for long periods of time. We can't make the Spirit show up and give us the experience we think we should have.

We can keep faithfully showing up, making ourselves available, attending to and worshipping God, and being open to what the Spirit will do. Refusing to do that because on any given day it's not setting off personal spiritual fireworks seems... off, somehow.

Yes I agree we should not 'make the Holy Spirit show up' to give us some experience we want.

I am certainly familiar with the 'dark night of the soul' yet deeper is the revelation of being loved even when struggling with lack of a tangible sense of His presence.

Yes faithfulness in worship is important regardless of how we feel.
I would never suggest we should refuse to worship.

My intent is to raise honest points to contemplate. We should be able to grapple robustly with such issues, seriously and with sensitivity.

 

[Paidiske]

I guess I'm not really sure what it is you want, Carl. Are you arguing for removing confession from the liturgy in case people don't "feel" it that day?