Communion wine

[Edial]

How close to the original apostles do you want to venture? How about someone that was within 50 years of the apostles like Justin Martyr from the 1st century and knew how communion was practiced. Notice the wine reference.



From Justin Martyr's First Apology:

On finishing the prayers we greet each other with a kiss. Then bread and a cup of water mixed with wine are brought to the leader and he, taking them, sends up praise and glory to the Father of the Universe through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and offers thanksgiving at some length that we have been deemed worthy to receive these things. When the leader has finished the prayers and thanksgivings, the whole congregation assents, saying, "Amen." ("Amen" is Hebrew for "So be it.") Then those whom we call deacons give to each of those present a portion of the consecrated bread and wine and water, and they take it to the absent.​

Good one.

 

[BreadAlone]

He said, "Take and drink, THIS is My blood..."
This is a matter of simple English grammar. The word "this" is a pronoun and stands for something else. What does "this" in the above statement mean? It means what was in the cup, which has been shown to you several times is grape wine. Thus, Christ's command most certainly does include the use of grape wine.

This is extremely clear from the text. You simply don't want it to be so. But it says what it says, whether you want it to say that or not.

Okay..THIS. So..any wine in the present age isn't his blood then..because only THAT was. Simple grammar, right?

A variety of wines, I believe, wasn't available back then, so why would he specify?

 

[Edial]

No it doesn't. Just because it's what they USED, doesn't mean that WE have to use it.

I don't understand.

Did Christ say fruit of the vine or not?

Are you saying it could be any beverage?

I am missing something here ...

 

[TehGather3r]

Welcome to TCL ... again.

Thanks for the welcome.

 

[WildStrawberry]

But Jesus didn't talk about the contents of the cup until AFTER the sacrament. And he's merely stating he wouldn't have wine again until heaven.<snip>

He didn't have to talk about the contents of the cup. In a Jewish Passover Seder, there are 4 cups of WINE that are drunk during the seder meal. The cup that Jesus gave them was but one of the cups. The one that was given after what is called the afikomen , which I figure is the part of the meal that Jesus used to institute the Sacrament. (this would be the third cup of wine as the fourth was the cup for the Prophet Elijah.)

(there's no mention of the bitter herbs, salt water, roast lamb and eggs that would have also been a big part of the passover meal.)

So, since all of this has been going on since the time of the Exodus, the Disciples KNEW what was in the cup. Jesus didn't have to tell them and He didn't have to tell US. We KNOW what was in the cup because we know, from the Word of God, what goes on during the Passover meal.

Kae

 

[Edial]

Yes, thank you. What'd ya get me?

Well, if you show up for the TCL Reunion in St.Louis I am certain we would scrape up some change and get you a cup of real coffee.

 

[BreadAlone]

He didn't have to talk about the contents of the cup. In a Jewish Passover Seder, there are 4 cups of WINE that are drunk during the seder meal. The cup that Jesus gave them was but one of the cups. The one that was given after what is called the afikomen , which I figure is the part of the meal that Jesus used to institute the Sacrament. (this would be the third cup of wine as the fourth was the cup for the Prophet Elijah.)

(there's no mention of the bitter herbs, salt water, roast lamb and eggs that would have also been a big part of the passover meal.)

So, since all of this has been going on since the time of the Exodus, the Disciples KNEW what was in the cup. Jesus didn't have to tell them and He didn't have to tell US. We KNOW what was in the cup because we know, from the Word of God, what goes on during the Passover meal.

Kae

But there weren't any other wines back then! So I'm saying, since he didn't specify, neither should we. We live in the NT, not the OT.

 

[BreadAlone]

I don't understand.

Did Christ say fruit of the vine or not?

Are you saying it could be any beverage?

I am missing something here ...

I'm saying it can be any wine, because durring the actual consecration he didn't specify what kind of wine.

 

[RadMan]

I NEVER refused to believe that! I merely stated that Christ didn't command it MUST be in the present age grape wine.

So you saying that whatever Jesus said isn't for all times and all circumstances? Maybe when you pray tonight you should tell Him that. Say "Jesus I don't believe that everything you said in the Bible is for now so I want to change what you said according to what I think you said and not really what you said". That should really get His attention.

 

[WildStrawberry]

So what all of this boils down to is since Jesus didn't say "hey use Manacheviz (sp?) that we can use any form of wine...as long as it's wine...right?

But that's not right. Why? Because it has to be GRAPE wine. Not strawberry, not dandelion, not fig, not peach, not...not...not.

It's grape wine. You know it ('cause we've been saying it over and over again) and we know it. (because we've been saying over and over again. )

Okay?

Kae

 

[DaRev]

A variety of wines, I believe, wasn't available back then, so why would he specify?

That's not the point. The point is that He used grape wine and that is part of His command. And we as Christians follow our Lord's command, thus we are to use what He commanded in His supper.

 

[BreadAlone]

So you saying that whatever Jesus said isn't for all times and all circumstances? Maybe when you pray tonight you should tell Him that. Say "Jesus I don't believe that everything you said in the Bible is for now so I want to change what you said according to what I think you said and not really what you said". That should really get His attention.

Christ DIDN'T specify what type of wine must be used durring the consecration, and neither will I!!

 

[BreadAlone]

That's not the point. The point is that He used grape wine and that is part of His command. And we as Christians follow our Lord's command, thus we are to use what He commanded in His supper.

But he NEVER commanded it!

 

[BreadAlone]

So what all of this boils down to is since Jesus didn't say "hey use Manacheviz (sp?) that we can use any form of wine...as long as it's wine...right?

But that's not right. Why? Because it has to be GRAPE wine. Not strawberry, not dandelion, not fig, not peach, not...not...not.

It's grape wine. You know it ('cause we've been saying it over and over again) and we know it. (because we've been saying over and over again. )

Okay?

Kae

That's where we disagree. I won't say it "has to be" because Jesus didn't.

 

[BreadAlone]

I feel so weird being on the "liberal" side of an arguement..usually I'm the conservative "fundie"!

 

[DaRev]

But he NEVER commanded it!

Well, three different people here showed you in the Bible text that He in fact did command it. Your saying otherwise doesn't change what Jesus Himself commanded.

 

[Edial]

I'm saying it can be any wine, because durring the actual consecration he didn't specify what kind of wine.

Of course not.
But it should be a grape wine, since the the grape is the fruit of the vine.

Or, a grape juice, since it is also a fruit of the vine.

You see, we know that the vine is a grape vine, since they used grape wine at the Passover.

But must we have grape wine? No.
We are told to have a fruit of the (grape) vine. That's all.
And many use grape juice as well.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[RadMan]

Christ DIDN'T specify what type of wine must be used durring the consecration, and neither will I!!

You don't even know what you have posted previously. You're talking in circles and making you comments seem ridiculous. Who the heck is even saying that we should use a certain type of wine? Only you and I don't know who you are arguing against since we havn't even mentioned it.

 

[BreadAlone]

Well, three different people here showed you in the Bible text that He in fact did command it. Your saying otherwise doesn't change what Jesus Himself commanded.

Him talking about wine after completing the Sacrament is not, in my opinion, a command.

 

[WildStrawberry]

But he NEVER commanded it!

Okay. So. Just because there was GRAPE wine in the cup and Jesus said "take...THIS..." that He didn't specify.

What in gravy are they teaching in your schools? Because that sounds like a direct command. THIS is THIS.

You'd have liked it better if Jesus spoon fed you and said "hey Take this GRAPE WINE in this cup because it's gonna be poured out for you as my blood, Bread Alone".

Because He didn't have to do that. It's all there in black and white (and red if you have one of those Bibles.) This means This. It was grape wine. We know because of context. You don't have to like it but you don't make the policies. Jesus does and that is what HE said.

Kae