Communion wine

[BreadAlone]

So what you're saying is, even though Jesus said "I won't drink of this FRUIT OF THE VINE again until..." that he was just joshing with them and talking in metaphor?

If you go out and look up what a Jewish Passover Seder has as the absolutes...they don't have wine from anything other than grapes. (non orthodox, from what I understand, will use PURE grape juice but then, they're non orthodox. *G*) Look at bottles of kosher wine. Do you see ANY that are not grape? No. Why? Because grape wine is what is used during the Passover Seder. Nothing else.

Jesus wasn't just joshing when he said "fruit of the vine". He was saying "what you just drank...you know, that wine there? Yeah, I'm not going to have anymore of that until I'm in the Kingdom of God."

Kae

NO, that's NOT what I mean. I'm saying that just because he used it, he wasn't necessarily commanding we MUST.

 

[BreadAlone]

You have LOADS yet to learn, son.

 

[WildStrawberry]

NO, that's NOT what I mean. I'm saying that just because he used it, he wasn't necessarily commanding we MUST.

So when Jesus said "THIS IS my blood" he wasn't talking about the WINE he was using huh?

Kae

 

[DaRev]

NO, that's NOT what I mean. I'm saying that just because he used it, he wasn't necessarily commanding we MUST.

Yes, He was. We don't have the authority to change what Jesus did. We are not God. Ours is to follow as the Word of God commands.

 

[RadMan]

I don't see what how they did things two millenia ago has to do with how we choose to do them today. IMHO, if it's not specified precisely in Scripture, I'm not going to feel forced into it. Now it may be best to stick to historical accuracy, I won't disagree to that. But demanding it is a step too far.

It doesn't say anything about how we have to do it. It says the products used and how they were mixed. It has nothing to do with tradition it has something to do with you refusing what the Bible says about the Last Supper and what the elements were.
IT SAYS BREAD, AND WATER MIXED WITH WINE! DUH

 

[WildStrawberry]

NO, that's NOT what I mean. I'm saying that just because he used it, he wasn't necessarily commanding we MUST.

and another thought on this...(I have lots of 'em. I teach kids your age in SS so...I've heard it all. *G*)

What it sounds like you're saying is that because Jesus didn't specify that we had to use this particular drink made of fermented grapes, that if we so choose we can use Jack Daniels instead? Or Pepsi? Or (*shudder*) Coke? Or maybe cow's blood?

How ridiculous all of those sound right? Well, Jesus DID say "use grape wine" because he said "THIS is My blood" He didn't say "whatever you choose to use because you don't care for wine or grape juice or whatever...I'm cool with that." He said THIS meaning the wine in the cup that they had all just had a drink of just a moment before.

Kae

 

[BreadAlone]

So when Jesus said "THIS IS my blood" he wasn't talking about the WINE he was using huh?

Kae

Yes he was..but he didn't specify what type of wine MUST be used, he only mentioned what type he DID use.

Yes, He was. We don't have the authority to change what Jesus did. We are not God. Ours is to follow as the Word of God commands.

But the word of God didn't COMMAND that it be the fruit of the vine. Jesus used it, yes, and I think we should too. But he didn't say "take and drink this fruit of the vine," he said "take and drink, this is my blood." I'm stating that the type of wine isn't of the importance in the sacrament, and no specific command was given. IMHO, it's adiaphora.

I may think it's best to stick to the example Jesus used (and I do) but I wouldn't make others do it if they don't want to.

 

[BreadAlone]

It doesn't say anything about how we have to do it. It says the products used and how they were mixed. It has nothing to do with tradition it has something to do with you refusing what the Bible says about the Last Supper and what the elements were.
IT SAYS BREAD, AND WATER MIXED WITH WINE! DUH

And I don't think I have argued with anything in this post in this thread!

 

[porterross]

Welcome to the world of those of us who are currently living with teenagers, y'all.

 

[Edial]

I don't see what how they did things two millenia ago has to do with how we choose to do them today. IMHO, if it's not specified precisely in Scripture, I'm not going to feel forced into it. Now it may be best to stick to historical accuracy, I won't disagree to that. But demanding it is a step too far.

I am missing something here.

Do you mean not to have wine specifically?

Fruit of the wine means in our world grape.

Grape can be either a grape juice or a wine.

That is why all the churches that I know serve wine and grape juice,

I am certain some serve just wine or just grape. OK. But most serve both - fruit of the vine.

It is like water is being used for Baptism. It could be an ocean (salty) water, the one from the river or the tap (with chlorine).

Why?

Because it says water and it says fruit of the vine.

Why must it be water for Baptism of fruit of the wine for Communion? I cannot answer that from a technical perspective. It's just the way it is.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[BreadAlone]

and another thought on this...(I have lots of 'em. I teach kids your age in SS so...I've heard it all. *G*)

What it sounds like you're saying is that because Jesus didn't specify that we had to use this particular drink made of fermented grapes, that if we so choose we can use Jack Daniels instead? Or Pepsi? Or (*shudder*) Coke? Or maybe cow's blood?

How ridiculous all of those sound right? Well, Jesus DID say "use grape wine" because he said "THIS is My blood" He didn't say "whatever you choose to use because you don't care for wine or grape juice or whatever...I'm cool with that." He said THIS meaning the wine in the cup that they had all just had a drink of just a moment before.

Kae

Yes, it was wine. It's using common sense. You draw the line with common sense.

 

[WildStrawberry]

Yes he was..but he didn't



But the word of God didn't COMMAND that it be the fruit of the vine. Jesus used it, yes, and I think we should too. But he didn't say "take and drink this fruit of the vine," he said "take and drink, this is my blood."

Ahh...now you're talking semantics. "take and drink [this wine] this is my blood." the [ ] means that the phrase [this wine] is understood. All the disiples KNEW there was wine in the cup. We know there was wine in the cup 'cause of what we know about Passover and what Jesus said regarding the fruit of the vine. We don't need Jesus to spoon feed everything 'cause it's totally understood by the context of what is going on in the passage. You should have learned this in Freshman English...right?

I'm stating that the type of wine isn't of the importance in the sacrament, and no specific command was given. IMHO, it's adiaphora.

Red White Pink...doesn't matter. What matters is that it is WINE. Just like Jesus used.

Kae

 

[BreadAlone]

Welcome to the world of those of us who are currently living with teenagers, y'all.

 

[RadMan]

And I don't think I have argued with anything in this post in this thread!

Yes you have. You have refused to believe it was wine "fruit of the vine"

You say you are WELS yet you don't even believe what they believe. How can you profess even being a confessional Lutheran if you can't even get the basics.

You're sounding more like ELCA everyday.

 

[BreadAlone]

Ahh...now you're talking semantics. "take and drink [this wine] this is my blood." the [ ] means that the phrase [this wine] is understood. All the disiples KNEW there was wine in the cup. We know there was wine in the cup 'cause of what we know about Passover and what Jesus said regarding the fruit of the vine. We don't need Jesus to spoon feed everything 'cause it's totally understood by the context of what is going on in the passage. You should have learned this in Freshman English...right?




Red White Pink...doesn't matter. What matters is that it is WINE. Just like Jesus used.

Kae

But Jesus didn't talk about the contents of the cup until AFTER the sacrament. And he's merely stating he wouldn't have wine again until heaven.

You know, I'm pretty sure they didn't even HAVE different types of wine (other than grape) back then. So why would he mention it? It wasn't of importance to them. But in our times it is a relevant question, and since Christ didn't specify, I won't either.

 

[Edial]

Welcome to the world of those of us who are currently living with teenagers, y'all.

So, ... It is after 8.

Can we now congratulate you on your birthday?

 

[BreadAlone]

Yes you have. You have refused to believe it was wine "fruit of the vine"

You say you are WELS yet you don't even believe what they believe. How can you profess even being a confessional Lutheran if you can't even get the basics.

You're sounding more like ELCA everyday.

I NEVER refused to believe that! I merely stated that Christ didn't command it MUST be in the present age grape wine.

 

[DaRev]

Yes he was..but he didn't specify what type of wine MUST be used, he only mentioned what type he DID use.

But the word of God didn't COMMAND that it be the fruit of the vine. Jesus used it, yes, and I think we should too. But he didn't say "take and drink this fruit of the vine," he said "take and drink, this is my blood." I'm stating that the type of wine isn't of the importance in the sacrament, and no specific command was given. IMHO, it's adiaphora.

I may think it's best to stick to the example Jesus used (and I do) but I wouldn't make others do it if they don't want to.

He said, "Take and drink, THIS is My blood..."
This is a matter of simple English grammar. The word "this" is a pronoun and stands for something else. What does "this" in the above statement mean? It means what was in the cup, which has been shown to you several times is grape wine. Thus, Christ's command most certainly does include the use of grape wine.

This is extremely clear from the text. You simply don't want it to be so. But it says what it says, whether you want it to say that or not.

 

[Edial]

I think too big of a deal is being made of this subject. Leave it be and let others continue practicing whatever it is that they practice. People have their own reasons for whatever it is that they do.

Welcome to TCL ... again.

 

[porterross]

So, ... It is after 8.

Can we now congratulate you on your birthday?

Yes, thank you. What'd ya get me?