Communion wine

[BreadAlone]

No, Christ did not command that the bread be unleavened and the grapes be fermented. That was simply the practice during that time. Christ said "Take and drink" and "Take and eat". We know that they had fruit of the vine, which does not expressly mean wine. Ask anyone who works at a winery and they will tell you that. We know they used unleavened bread, but the bible merely says bread. It was a well-known practice to add water to the wine as well, but we don't do that in church. Do you? If not, and you adhere to the command being partly the practices of the time, then by your own logic you may not be receiving the sacrament.

PRECISELY!! Maybe there's a difference between the LCMS and WELS on this!? It's one I didn't know about..

 

[DaRev]

I'm going to ignore the sarcasm that this post reeks of...

No, Christ did not command that the bread be unleavened and the grapes be fermented. That was simply the practice during that time. Christ said "Take and drink" and "Take and eat". We know that they had fruit of the vine, which does not expressly mean wine. Ask anyone who works at a winery and they will tell you that. We know they used unleavened bread, but the bible merely says bread. It was a well-known practice to add water to the wine as well, but we don't do that in church. Do you? If not, and you adhere to the command being partly the practices of the time, then by your own logic you may not be receiving the sacrament.

The practice of adding water to the wine was not widespread. Whether or not there was water in the wine used at the Last Supper is not known, nor is it important since it was not always done.

What is important is what Christ commanded and what He used in His command, that being the unleavened bread of the Feast of Unleavened Bread which the Scriptures specifically state, and wine which the Scriptures also specifically state was used in the Passover meal. Scripture interprets Scripture.

 

[Edial]

... Christ's command included unleavened bread and grape wine. The use of anything other than that could very well be outside of Christ's command.

Christ's command was bread and fruit of the vine.

There is no disagreement there. It is plainly written.

We are also told that in Heaven we will drink of the fruit of the vine.

MT 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

In Heaven we will not drink either grape wine nor grape juice, but a fruit of a vine that grows in Heaven, whatever it will be.

This context presents that a fruit of a vine is relative to it's application of the times.

We do not do the same way the 1st century church did. We do not have full meals during communion.
Why? Because times change, but the Word remains.
Applications change, the Word remains.

The eternal Word says: "Fruit of the vine" and "Bread". How we do it - is application.

Chinese do it one way, Indians another.

The Word is what counts, applications vary.

Fruit of the vine. Bread. Take it. Eat. Drink.

Only in Heaven the Word and application will unite, since we all be in one place, one solid state called eternity.

This thread strenghtened my reliance on the Word.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[DaRev]

This thread strenghtened my reliance on the Word.

Now you just need to work on your exegetical interpretation.

 

[RadMan]

How close to the original apostles do you want to venture? How about someone that was within 50 years of the apostles like Justin Martyr from the 1st century and knew how communion was practiced. Notice the wine reference.


From Justin Martyr's First Apology:

On finishing the prayers we greet each other with a kiss. Then bread and a cup of water mixed with wine are brought to the leader and he, taking them, sends up praise and glory to the Father of the Universe through the name of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and offers thanksgiving at some length that we have been deemed worthy to receive these things. When the leader has finished the prayers and thanksgivings, the whole congregation assents, saying, "Amen." ("Amen" is Hebrew for "So be it.") Then those whom we call deacons give to each of those present a portion of the consecrated bread and wine and water, and they take it to the absent.​

 

[BreadAlone]

Christ's command was bread and fruit of the vine.

There is no disagreement there. It is plainly written.

....

Fruit of the vine. Bread. Take it. Eat. Drink.

Only in Heaven the Word and application will unite, since we all be in one place, one solid state called eternity.

This thread strenghtened my reliance on the Word.

Thanks,
Ed

Actually, no one has showed me where it says fruit of the vine..they've said it's implied, but the texts don't actually say it.
So we're not all in agreement there..

 

[porterross]

Veering slightly off-topic to say:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY PORTERROSS!!!​

THANKS, BECKIE!!!!!!

 

[Edial]

Actually, no one has showed me where it says fruit of the vine..they've said it's implied, but the texts don't actually say it.
So we're not all in agreement there..

I thought everyone knew ...

MT 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of thecovenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

MK 14:24 "This is my blood of thecovenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25 "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

LK 22:17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

 

[BreadAlone]

I thought everyone knew ...

MT 26:27 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of thecovenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."

MK 14:24 "This is my blood of thecovenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25 "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

LK 22:17 After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18 For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

But it doesn't say "take and drink this grape wine which is my blood" he doesn't specify what it was. After the sacrament he makes a comment about it being the fruit of the vine. But that doesn't imply it HAS to be.

 

[WildStrawberry]

Actually, no one has showed me where it says fruit of the vine..they've said it's implied, but the texts don't actually say it.
So we're not all in agreement there..

Luke 22:17-18 (niv)

17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

Mark 14:24,25 (niv)

24"This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

Matthew 26:27-29 (niv)

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."


There ya go, BA. 3 different areas in the GOSPELS where it says "fruit of the vine".

Since that IS what you were asking right? That someone show you were exactly it said exactly "fruit of the vine" right?

Kae

 

[Edial]

Now you just need to work on your exegetical interpretation.

Sure.
Since one does not believe we will drink red wine in Heaven, the exegetical interpretation of the texts stops at the fruit of the vine and goes no further.

 

[RadMan]

But it doesn't say "take and drink this grape wine which is my blood" he doesn't specify what it was. After the sacrament he makes a comment about it being the fruit of the vine. But that doesn't imply it HAS to be.

What are you, blind? I just showed you it was done in the first century! sheeesh

 

[DaRev]

Matthew 26:27-29 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave itto them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

Mark 14:23-25 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

Luke 22:17-18 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."


Apparently you missed those three passages concerning the Lord's Supper.​

 

[BreadAlone]

Luke 22:17-18 (niv)

17After taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, "Take this and divide it among you. 18For I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."

Mark 14:24,25 (niv)

24"This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. 25"I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

Matthew 26:27-29 (niv)

27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the[b] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."


There ya go, BA. 3 different areas in the GOSPELS where it says "fruit of the vine".

Since that IS what you were asking right? That someone show you were exactly it said exactly "fruit of the vine" right?

Kae

Matthew 26:27-29 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave itto them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."

Mark 14:23-25 Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them. "I tell you the truth, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."

Luke 22:17-18 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He said, "Take this and share it among yourselves; for I say to you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes."


Apparently you missed those three passages concerning the Lord's Supper.​

​

See here.

 

[Edial]

But it doesn't say "take and drink this grape wine which is my blood" he doesn't specify what it was. After the sacrament he makes a comment about it being the fruit of the vine. But that doesn't imply it HAS to be.

It does imply that it has to be.

Fruit of the vine is grape.

Grape can be made into juice of wine.

The fruit of the vine is grape.

 

[DaRev]

But it doesn't say "take and drink this grape wine which is my blood" he doesn't specify what it was. After the sacrament he makes a comment about it being the fruit of the vine. But that doesn't imply it HAS to be.

You have LOADS yet to learn, son.

 

[WildStrawberry]

But it doesn't say "take and drink this grape wine which is my blood" he doesn't specify what it was. After the sacrament he makes a comment about it being the fruit of the vine. But that doesn't imply it HAS to be.

So what you're saying is, even though Jesus said "I won't drink of this FRUIT OF THE VINE again until..." that he was just joshing with them and talking in metaphor?

If you go out and look up what a Jewish Passover Seder has as the absolutes...they don't have wine from anything other than grapes. (non orthodox, from what I understand, will use PURE grape juice but then, they're non orthodox. *G*) Look at bottles of kosher wine. Do you see ANY that are not grape? No. Why? Because grape wine is what is used during the Passover Seder. Nothing else.

Jesus wasn't just joshing when he said "fruit of the vine". He was saying "what you just drank...you know, that wine there? Yeah, I'm not going to have anymore of that until I'm in the Kingdom of God."

Kae

 

[BreadAlone]

What are you, blind? I just showed you it was done in the first century! sheeesh

I don't see what how they did things two millenia ago has to do with how we choose to do them today. IMHO, if it's not specified precisely in Scripture, I'm not going to feel forced into it. Now it may be best to stick to historical accuracy, I won't disagree to that. But demanding it is a step too far.

 

[BreadAlone]

It does imply that it has to be.

Fruit of the vine is grape.

Grape can be made into juice of wine.

The fruit of the vine is grape.

No it doesn't. Just because it's what they USED, doesn't mean that WE have to use it.

 

[TehGather3r]

I think too big of a deal is being made of this subject. Leave it be and let others continue practicing whatever it is that they practice. People have their own reasons for whatever it is that they do.