Communion/Eucharist/Lord's Supper

[Albion]

Pretty straight forward. It is the doctrine of ALL the original churches, the Eucharist IS the body of Christ.
Unless you eat of it Jesus the Christ has no part in you.

In some respect, it's the body of Christ, that's right.

 

[Big Drew]

I don't know most churches, but my guess is that all churces are fallen (at least to some degree) as we are all fallen. I alternate in view of how many people who live today will go to Heaven. These days, I don't know if it's the mood or additional insights, but my guess is... not favorable, to put it that way. I used to see Hell as exclusive place for bad people. Now I increasingly see Heaven as exclusive place for those who are really pure in heart. What's your take?

Having not had the privilege to visit every church in the world, I can't say for sure...some are obviously heretical, some not...but I believe that there are true believers to be found in various churches all over the world.

I think we Westerners, especially Americans miss the mark quite often when it comes to our faith...it's the Burger King mentality...we want it our way, right away...and if we don't get that we jump to the next church or whatever...I'm guilty of it, and recently the Lord has laid it on my heart to slow down, to really get to know Him.

I'm realizing that for years I've had a pocket god...One that I just pulled out when I needed him, then stuck him back in my wallet until the next time I was in a bind. He wants so much more than that from us...He came to this earth and died for us, not because He had to, but because He wanted to. I'm seeing more now that if He was willing to give everything for us, then we should be willing to give everything for Him.

 

[Big Drew]

One important thing to pick up on as regards the eucharist, is that in the ancient language the word used for "eat" means literally "gnaw" not consume, more generally: deliberately chosen to leave those hearing it in no doubt, he really did mean eat his flesh, which was an anathema to jews.
Thats why they were all so offended at the synagogue at Capernaum. After the biblical reference from john 6 , in the verses after many of his followers left,
and instead of call them back our Lord simply asked Peter "will you go too?", to which Peter replies - where would we go?

Our Lord could easily have explained symbolism to stop them leaving , but not a bit of it, he let them leave if they did not like the idea of eating real flesh and drinking real blood. So.. A valid eucharist really is the flesh and blood of our Lord, it is not just spiritual or memorial.

That is why Paul says in a rhetorical question "is it not the flesh and blood of our lord" and that to take the eucharist unworthily was to "eat and drink judgement on yourself"

In early writings we also know the practice of the eucharist - seen for example in ignatius Letter to smyrneans ( he and polycarp were disciples of and taught by John the apostle) , that to BE a valid eucharist it must be conducted by a (succession) bishop or his appointee.

It is also why the romans considered early christians cannibals, because they had heard they were "eating the flesh and blood"

So once you have a true understanding of eucharist, as practiced at catholic mass...who would not want to take it as often as possible!
It is heaven union with earth, our lord really present there, the source and summit of our faith.

And for those interested in science there is a large amount of credible forensic evidence analysed by proper forensic labs, now from the eucharistic miracles of such as tixtla, buenos aireis, sokolka, and more recently legnica that bread really does become heart mycorardium , we know to be living tissue because of white cells also which show forensic evidence of severe beating or so the pathologists say.

As someone who travelled from anglican roots, through various evangelical sects to come home to catholic church because of study of early church - it amazed me how little notice evangelical sects take of scripture - the bible bashers use it as a weapon against others, not a guide for life. There is almost no scripture in their services, and the eucharist is infrequent, very watered down and half hearted using such as crackers and juice, thrown away at the end!. Indeed surprisingly of all the services the catholic mass has the most scripture by far...the entire mass is wall to wall bible quotations, with liturgy recognisable from early church writings.

I very much appreciate the RCC view of the eucharist.

 

[GentleSheepman]

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 30: Of the Lord's Supper
1._____ The supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by him the same night wherein he was betrayed, to be observed in his churches, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance, and shewing forth the sacrifice of himself in his death, confirmation of the faith of believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment, and growth in him, their further engagement in, and to all duties which they owe to him; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with him, and with each other.
( 1 Corinthians 11:23-26; 1 Corinthians 10:16, 17,21 )
2._____ In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to his Father, nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin of the quick or dead, but only a memorial of that one offering up of himself by himself upon the cross, once for all; and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same. So that the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, injurious to Christ's own sacrifice the alone propitiation for all the sins of the elect.
( Hebrews 9:25, 26, 28; 1 Corinthians 11:24; Matthew 26:26, 27 )

3._____ The Lord Jesus hath, in this ordinance, appointed his ministers to pray, and bless the elements of bread and wine, and thereby to set them apart from a common to a holy use, and to take and break the bread; to take the cup, and, they communicating also themselves, to give both to the communicants.
( 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, etc. )

4._____ The denial of the cup to the people, worshipping the elements, the lifting them up, or carrying them about for adoration, and reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this ordinance, and to the institution of Christ.
( Matthew 26:26-28; Matthew 15:9; Exodus 20:4, 5 )

5._____ The outward elements in this ordinance, duly set apart to the use ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that truly, although in terms used figuratively, they are sometimes called by the names of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ, albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.
( 1 Corinthians 11:27; 1 Corinthians 11:26-28 )

6._____ That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood, commonly called transubstantiation, by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense and reason, overthroweth the nature of the ordinance, and hath been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions, yea, of gross idolatries.
( Acts 3:21; Luke 14:6, 39; 1 Corinthians 11:24, 25 )

7._____ Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
( 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 )

8._____ All ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Christ, so are they unworthy of the Lord's table, and cannot, without great sin against him, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted thereunto; yea, whosoever shall receive unworthily, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgment to themselves.
( 2 Corinthians 6:14, 15; 1 Corinthians 11:29; Matthew 7:6 )

God bless

 

[Fr. Charles +]

This is a great question! I have never been a part of a congregation that practices the Supper weekly. Although, I agree with you, that this is something we should do every time we meet. I think, sadly, that a lot of the reason it turns into a "scheduled thing", has to do with time and convenience.

 

[Big Drew]

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 30: Of the Lord's Supper
1._____ The supper of the Lord Jesus was instituted by him the same night wherein he was betrayed, to be observed in his churches, unto the end of the world, for the perpetual remembrance, and shewing forth the sacrifice of himself in his death, confirmation of the faith of believers in all the benefits thereof, their spiritual nourishment, and growth in him, their further engagement in, and to all duties which they owe to him; and to be a bond and pledge of their communion with him, and with each other.
( 1 Corinthians 11:23-26; 1 Corinthians 10:16, 17,21 )
2._____ In this ordinance Christ is not offered up to his Father, nor any real sacrifice made at all for remission of sin of the quick or dead, but only a memorial of that one offering up of himself by himself upon the cross, once for all; and a spiritual oblation of all possible praise unto God for the same. So that the popish sacrifice of the mass, as they call it, is most abominable, injurious to Christ's own sacrifice the alone propitiation for all the sins of the elect.
( Hebrews 9:25, 26, 28; 1 Corinthians 11:24; Matthew 26:26, 27 )

3._____ The Lord Jesus hath, in this ordinance, appointed his ministers to pray, and bless the elements of bread and wine, and thereby to set them apart from a common to a holy use, and to take and break the bread; to take the cup, and, they communicating also themselves, to give both to the communicants.
( 1 Corinthians 11:23-26, etc. )

4._____ The denial of the cup to the people, worshipping the elements, the lifting them up, or carrying them about for adoration, and reserving them for any pretended religious use, are all contrary to the nature of this ordinance, and to the institution of Christ.
( Matthew 26:26-28; Matthew 15:9; Exodus 20:4, 5 )

5._____ The outward elements in this ordinance, duly set apart to the use ordained by Christ, have such relation to him crucified, as that truly, although in terms used figuratively, they are sometimes called by the names of the things they represent, to wit, the body and blood of Christ, albeit, in substance and nature, they still remain truly and only bread and wine, as they were before.
( 1 Corinthians 11:27; 1 Corinthians 11:26-28 )

6._____ That doctrine which maintains a change of the substance of bread and wine, into the substance of Christ's body and blood, commonly called transubstantiation, by consecration of a priest, or by any other way, is repugnant not to Scripture alone, but even to common sense and reason, overthroweth the nature of the ordinance, and hath been, and is, the cause of manifold superstitions, yea, of gross idolatries.
( Acts 3:21; Luke 14:6, 39; 1 Corinthians 11:24, 25 )

7._____ Worthy receivers, outwardly partaking of the visible elements in this ordinance, do then also inwardly by faith, really and indeed, yet not carnally and corporally, but spiritually receive, and feed upon Christ crucified, and all the benefits of his death; the body and blood of Christ being then not corporally or carnally, but spiritually present to the faith of believers in that ordinance, as the elements themselves are to their outward senses.
( 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 )

8._____ All ignorant and ungodly persons, as they are unfit to enjoy communion with Christ, so are they unworthy of the Lord's table, and cannot, without great sin against him, while they remain such, partake of these holy mysteries, or be admitted thereunto; yea, whosoever shall receive unworthily, are guilty of the body and blood of the Lord, eating and drinking judgment to themselves.
( 2 Corinthians 6:14, 15; 1 Corinthians 11:29; Matthew 7:6 )

God bless

Basically what I see here is, "We don't like how Rome does it, so we'll do it this way!" Maybe they thought differently back in the 1600s...but if I was going to explain why I believe something the way that I do I wouldn't make my case based on my belief that someone else believes wrongly.

No offense to you personally, I thank you for posting this...I just see too many issues with the text.

 

[Fr. Charles +]

Receiving the Holy Eucharist on a weekly basis helps us to have a closer relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! See John 6:56

 

[GentleSheepman]

Basically what I see here is, "We don't like how Rome does it, so we'll do it this way!" Maybe they thought differently back in the 1600s...but if I was going to explain why I believe something the way that I do I wouldn't make my case based on my belief that someone else believes wrongly.

No offense to you personally, I thank you for posting this...I just see too many issues with the text.

You're welcome.

God bless you

 

[fide]

Whatever your faith group calls it...

The main thing I miss from my days in the Episcopal Church is partaking of Communion every Sunday. In the evangelical churches I've attended over the last 16 years they only have communion once a month, or some only once a quarter...although, the one Pentecostal Holiness church I was a member of for a few years, the pastor became convicted of this and we started having Communion every Sunday.

The scriptures teach us to do this as often as we assemble...so why do so many evangelical churches not follow the Lord's instruction on this?

It seems that the more "recent" - i.e. "modern" - are protestant denominations, the less liturgical they are. The older/traditional protestant denominations (Luther, Calvin, Anglican) are closer to the Catholic model in theology and in worship. And the Catholic model of worship is in continuity with our Jewish roots: sacrifice at the Temple, and "Bible study" in the Synagogue - both combined in the Holy Mass.

We have a Liturgy of the Word (Scripture, prayer, homily/sermon), which is preparatory for the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Consecration at the Altar of Sacrifice, and Holy Communion). In this way we seek to worship God as the Father seeks those to worship Him:

Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."​

We believe that the true and perfect worship of God by man was accomplished at the Cross of Christ: Jesus was obedient to the Father's will, to the death. This was perfect worship - perfect obedience - perfect love.

When Jesus told the apostles, at the Last Supper, to "Do this", He was telling them to do exactly that: offer to the Father His (Jesus's) perfect worship. Saying "This is My body" and "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins," He was ordering them to make present for Christians, in a continuing ritual of worship which is now known as our Holy Mass, His own death on the Cross, His saving resurrection, His ascension that was necessary for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and thus of divine life into the Church that was to follow Him.

Thus the Mass is the Sacrifice of Christ made present in the here and now, the continuing presence of Christ's saving work among us in His Church. Thus His saving work is not merely a historical fact to be "remembered" as an event of 2000 years ago. It is that, but more: He commanded His apostles to keep this Sacrifice present in the world, until He comes again. It is our privilege, as Catholics, to be there with Him on Calvary, in His perfect act of worship, offering Him and offering ourselves with Him to the Father - our worship in spirit and truth - as Paul wrote:

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.​

This, by the way, may help non-Catholics understand the great importance to us of our belief that Holy Eucharist is Real - substantially real - the resurrected and glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are at Calvary in the Consecration at the Altar, we are present at His Sacrifice, "This is my Body" is literally true, His resurrected and glorified Body and Blood are truly food of eternal life - the Christ Himself.

Jesus is Truth.

 

[Archivist]

We have Holy Communion every Sunday in my ELCA church.

1 Corinthians 11:25 "In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

 

[Albion]

Receiving the Holy Eucharist on a weekly basis helps us to have a closer relationship with our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ! See John 6:56

That's what some people feel. Others feel that it has the opposite effect. Personally, I don't think the decision ought to be made on that basis.

 

[Thursday]

But Christ did NOT request that his disciples do it on any particular schedule. And, as for him setting some "example," he only celebrated the Passover meal one yearly.

Jesus gave the disciples, ie. Church leaders, the authority to bind and loose. That is, to make rules and decide matters like when to offer the Eucharist.

Jesus told the rest of us to listen to the Church.

 

[FireDragon76]

We have Holy Communion every Sunday in my ELCA church.

1 Corinthians 11:25 "In like manner also the cup, after supper, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

Many ELCA churches do, some don't. Some weeks the pastor is out of town. I would honestly rather have a church elder be appointed or ordained to celebrate the sacrament- it would certainly be valid to do so, as there is nothing ontologically different in a pastor than a layman that effects the validity of the sacrament. But I understand there is a great deal of resistance to this among Lutherans (though the LCMS has this practice, there is no end to the controversy among rigid confessionalists). Our local Presbyterian chaplain who would often substitute, unfortunately passed away.

The sacrament should be the normative part of worship. A sermon simply cannot communicate everything important about the Christian faith, but the body and blood of Christ certainly can.

 

[Archivist]

Many ELCA churches do, some don't. Some weeks the pastor is out of town. I would honestly rather have a church elder be appointed or ordained to celebrate the sacrament- it would certainly be valid to do so, as there is nothing ontologically different in a pastor than a layman that effects the validity of the sacrament. But I understand there is a great deal of resistance to this among Lutherans (though the LCMS has this practice, there is no end to the controversy among rigid confessionalists). Our local Presbyterian chaplain who would often substitute, unfortunately passed away.

At my home church, our pastor emeritus celebrates the sacrament when the pastor is out. On the occasions when he is not available (he winters in Florida) the pastor blesses the elements in advance. However, at the church that my mom attends they do not have communion if the pastor is out and a guest pastor is not available.

The sacrament should be the normative part of worship. A sermon simply cannot communicate everything important about the Christian faith, but the body and blood of Christ certainly can.

Agreed.

 

[Albion]

Jesus gave the disciples, ie. Church leaders, the authority to bind and loose. That is, to make rules and decide matters like when to offer the Eucharist.

Jesus told the rest of us to listen to the Church.

This isn't really a doctrinal issue--which I am sure is the first thing that you'd be writing to me if the subject were some less admirable dictate of the church hierarchy.

 

[FireDragon76]

At my home church, our pastor emeritus celebrates the sacrament when the pastor is out. On the occasions when he is not available (he winters in Florida) the pastor blesses the elements in advance. However, at the church that my mom attends they do not have communion if the pastor is out and a guest pastor is not available.

I didn't know some Lutherans practiced that (reserved sacrament), that's good to know.

 

[Fr. Charles +]

It seems that the more "recent" - i.e. "modern" - are protestant denominations, the less liturgical they are. The older/traditional protestant denominations (Luther, Calvin, Anglican) are closer to the Catholic model in theology and in worship. And the Catholic model of worship is in continuity with our Jewish roots: sacrifice at the Temple, and "Bible study" in the Synagogue - both combined in the Holy Mass.

We have a Liturgy of the Word (Scripture, prayer, homily/sermon), which is preparatory for the Liturgy of the Eucharist (Consecration at the Altar of Sacrifice, and Holy Communion). In this way we seek to worship God as the Father seeks those to worship Him:

Joh 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
Joh 4:23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him.
Joh 4:24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."​

We believe that the true and perfect worship of God by man was accomplished at the Cross of Christ: Jesus was obedient to the Father's will, to the death. This was perfect worship - perfect obedience - perfect love.

When Jesus told the apostles, at the Last Supper, to "Do this", He was telling them to do exactly that: offer to the Father His (Jesus's) perfect worship. Saying "This is My body" and "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins," He was ordering them to make present for Christians, in a continuing ritual of worship which is now known as our Holy Mass, His own death on the Cross, His saving resurrection, His ascension that was necessary for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and thus of divine life into the Church that was to follow Him.

Thus the Mass is the Sacrifice of Christ made present in the here and now, the continuing presence of Christ's saving work among us in His Church. Thus His saving work is not merely a historical fact to be "remembered" as an event of 2000 years ago. It is that, but more: He commanded His apostles to keep this Sacrifice present in the world, until He comes again. It is our privilege, as Catholics, to be there with Him on Calvary, in His perfect act of worship, offering Him and offering ourselves with Him to the Father - our worship in spirit and truth - as Paul wrote:

Rom 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship.
Rom 12:2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.​

This, by the way, may help non-Catholics understand the great importance to us of our belief that Holy Eucharist is Real - substantially real - the resurrected and glorified Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of the Lord Jesus Christ. We are at Calvary in the Consecration at the Altar, we are present at His Sacrifice, "This is my Body" is literally true, His resurrected and glorified Body and Blood are truly food of eternal life - the Christ Himself.

Jesus is Truth.

 

[fide]

Hello Fr. Charles. I'm confused. You quoted my post, but made no comment on it. I don't understand what you mean to say, with no words.

 

[Thursday]

This isn't really a doctrinal issue--which I am sure is the first thing that you'd be writing to me if the subject were some less admirable dictate of the church hierarchy.

The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a doctrinal issue. Also, the fact that some have left the Church and started heretical sects is a doctrinal issue.

However, the power to bind and loose does not apply to doctrine alone, it applies to Church disciplines and practices as well.

 

[Albion]

The real presence of Christ in the Eucharist is a doctrinal issue.

When the Lord's Supper will be celebrated isn't, however. And that's the topic here.