Common Questions and Objections Regarding the Sabbath Refuted

[LarryP2]

Perhaps they are moving towards the Messianics

As for point #1, we should diligently follow all the moedim to the best of our ability, but unfortunately, in this writer's opinion, much cannot be diligently observed due to the lack of a Temple.

There is certainly a large lay group of Adventists that are respectable that teach all of the ceremonial laws continue to apply, including the Temple rites of animal sacrifice, Levitical dress codes and food ordinances and so on. They have authority in that Ellen White clearly recommended that Adventists follow the yearly Feast of Tabernacles, which Adventists have long followed with their yearly "Camp meetings." Additionally, Samuele Bacchiochi and several other Seventh Day Adventist Academicians have proven that all of the animal sacrifices and ceremonial laws apply to Adventists. Adventist Feast Keepers regard all of this as "New Light" and the "Present Truth" and argue had White lived longer she would have endorsed such practices.

Seventh Day Adventist theologians are providing the scholarly firepower for this trend with their denunciation of St. Paul and his clear abrogation of the Mosaic Law in its entirety. I foresee in the next 10 years, what is left of the Seventh Day Adventist Church will have a "Bible" that will be the Old Testament plus the three synaptic Gospels; following all of the animal sacrifice and ceremonial laws, monthly and yearly sabbaths, Levitical Food and Dress laws.

It will be more or less indistinguishable from Messianic Judaism. Seventh Day Adventists in all honesty should be clamoring for the Judgment of the Mosaic Law, as well as the Commandments:

"Sarcastically speaking, those Saturday Sabbath-keeping churches which consider themselves to be God’s new Israel ought to be shouting like the ancient Sanhedrin to our civil government --“we have a law , and by our law he ought to die” (Jn 19:7)-- to have their own Sabbath-breaking members put to death. SDAs cast Exodus 31:13-17 at others and ignore it themselves by making Saturday their busiest day of the week."
http://www.tithing-russkelly.com/theology/id12.html

Any fully-committed Sabbath Keepers out there really willing to follow the law? A couple of hundred Adventists getting executed for driving their car on the Sabbath will have the salutary effect of sparking more rigorous Sabbath Keeping among the survivors.

 

[Frogster]

Perhaps they are moving towards the Messianics

As for point #1, we should diligently follow all the moedim to the best of our ability, but unfortunately, in this writer's opinion, much cannot be diligently observed due to the lack of a Temple.

70 AD, was God showing that it is not about our ability.


Hebrews 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

.....................
"Sarcastically speaking, those Saturday Sabbath-keeping churches which consider themselves to be God’s new Israel ought to be shouting like the ancient Sanhedrin to our civil government --“we have a law , and by our law he ought to die” (Jn 19:7)-- to have their own Sabbath-breaking members put to death. SDAs cast Exodus 31:13-17 at others and ignore it themselves by making Saturday their busiest day of the week."
LAW: ITS DEFINITION, SCOPE AND RELEVANCE

Any fully-committed Sabbath Keepers out there really willing to follow the law?
A couple of hundred Adventists getting executed for driving their car on the Sabbath will have the salutary effect of sparking more rigorous Sabbath Keeping among the survivors.

On top of there being less traffic.....

 

[ananda]

Any fully-committed Sabbath Keepers out there really willing to follow the law? A couple of hundred Adventists getting executed for driving their car on the Sabbath will have the salutary effect of sparking more rigorous Sabbath Keeping among the survivors.

Where is it written in YHVH's Law that death is prescribed to those "driving a car" on Sabbath?

 

[pyramid33]

No netzarim, we should condemn all of those that enjoy serving God on a day and resting. Or else.

Do you not realize your the victim yet netzarim? Who condemns another for serving God? It isn't God.

 

[pyramid33]

70 AD, was God showing that it is not about our ability.


Hebrews 4:10 For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

So your for the sabbath. Great.

 

[pyramid33]

You are free netzarim. You are free to do as God directs in your life netzarim. You are not condemned by me for not sacrificing animals and eating kosher. You are not condemned by me for driving a car and using electricity any day you have purpose for it. You are not condemned by me for eating pig, they are plentiful. You are not condemned by me for serving God on the seventh day or any other day, God is worthy of all worship and praise.

 

[LarryP2]

Where is it written in YHVH's Law that death is prescribed to those "driving a car" on Sabbath?

Exodus 31:14 reads, "Ye shall keep the Sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people."

"You shall not kindle fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day" (Exodus 35:1-3).

Your car roughly "lights" at least 2,000-5000 "fires" every single minute it is running:

"According to Jewish law, the operation of a motor vehicle constitutes multiple violations of the prohibited activities on Shabbat. Though Jewish law is based on texts that existed long before the existence of the automobile, various writings prohibit during Shabbat the actions that take place as a result of driving. The Torah thus prohibits driving on the basis that a labor is being performed by the act of operating a motor vehicle. The vehicle's ignition combusts fuel, which is considered to violate one of the 39 prohibited activities on Shabbat, as well as creating a spark, which is likewise in violation a related rabbinic (or possibly biblical) prohibition."

Driving on Shabbat in Jewish law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


"In Exodus 31:14 we read that Sabbath violators were to be stoned to death. Do you believe the same penalty should be enforced today? If you say that the penalty feature of the Sabbath law is done away, then you have really declared the Sabbath abolished, for a law has no force if there is no penalty provided for its violation. Again, in Exodus 35:3 we read that no fires were to be kindled on the Sabbath. If you believe the Sabbath law is still in force, why do you kindle fires on that day? Or drive a car, which "lights" at least 2,000 fires every minute?"

http://www.sabbathtruth.com/faq/arg...pposed-to-be-stoned-why-dont-you-enforce-that

Or, are you saying you just pick and choose among commandments that tickle your fancy, without any of the Judgments that are the enforcement mechanism? It sounds like I am free to eat shrimp, without worrying about the attendant Death Penalty, as long as I have an Adventist that will argue the Death Penalty only applies to ham eaters.

That sounds like fun! That means no Adventist will have to appear before the US Supreme Court and demand the Death Penalty for Adventists caught driving on the Sabbath, since they have proven they are just hypocrites and really just ignore the law whenever it suits their fancy. What ever else that is, it hasn't no resemblance to "Law." Saying you abide by a commandment (when it is obvious you do not) and refuse to abide by the Judgments that are just as important as the commandments means that you have no interest in keeping the Sabbath.

 

[ananda]

Lighting a fire on the Sabbath is prohibited. Your car roughly "lights" at least 2,000-5000 "fires" every single minute it is running:

"According to [Orthodox] Jewish law, the operation of a motor vehicle constitutes multiple violations of the prohibited activities on Shabbat. Though Jewish law is based on texts that existed long before the existence of the automobile, various writings prohibit during Shabbat the actions that take place as a result of driving. The Torah thus prohibits driving on the basis that a labor is being performed by the act of operating a motor vehicle. The vehicle's ignition combusts fuel, which is considered to violate one of the 39 prohibited activities on Shabbat, as well as creating a spark, which is likewise in violation a related rabbinic (or possibly biblical) prohibition." ... Again, in Exodus 35:3 we read that no fires were to be kindled on the Sabbath. If you believe the Sabbath law is still in force, why do you kindle fires on that day? Or drive a car, which "lights" at least 2,000 fires every minute.

Let's reword that to say that, in the tradition of Orthodox Judaism, driving a car is prohibited, under their interpretation of Ex 35:3.

As a Messianic (not Orthodox), we have a different interpretation of that Law. We believe that Ex 35:3 is a prohibition on kindling fires on the Sabbath in our houses. A car is not a house.

So, we disagree with the Orthodox interpretation, but we do not ignore the Law. Quoting Orthodox Judaism's interpretations against my positions would be like me quoting Roman Catholic interpretations against your positions.

"In Exodus 31:14 we read that Sabbath violators were to be stoned to death. Do you believe the same penalty should be enforced today? If you say that the penalty feature of the Sabbath law is done away, then you have really declared the Sabbath abolished, for a law has no force if there is no penalty provided for its violation. Aren't sabbath breakers supposed to be stoned? Why don't you enforce that? | Sabbath Truth

There is, in my tradition's interpretation, no validly ordained priesthood, as required by Law, that can act or sit as judges to pass judgment on alleged Sabbath violators. Ordinary men or women are not eligible to pass judgment.

We do not declare that this law is "done away" with; merely that it is unenforceable at this time.

Or, are you saying you just pick and choose among commandments that tickle your fancy, without any of the Judgments that are the enforcement mechanism?

We do not see it as "picking and choosing". The main issues are that there is no anointed Temple, nor a properly anointed priesthood to observe many of the commandments or determine and execute judgments.

That sounds like fun! That means no Adventist will have to appear before the US Supreme Court and demand the Death Penalty for Adventists caught driving on the Sabbath, since they have proven they are just hypocrites and really just ignore the law when it suits their fancy.

Again, I have nothing to do with Adventism.

 

[pyramid33]

Come Mashiach, come.

 

[ananda]

No netzarim, we should condemn all of those that enjoy serving God on a day and resting. Or else.

Do you not realize your the victim yet netzarim? Who condemns another for serving God? It isn't God.

I condemn none; that is YHVH's role. I am merely sharing my tradition's perspective on YHVH's requirements for the Sabbath.

 

[ananda]

You are free netzarim. You are free to do as God directs in your life netzarim. You are not condemned by me for not sacrificing animals and eating kosher. You are not condemned by me for driving a car and using electricity any day you have purpose for it. You are not condemned by me for eating pig, they are plentiful. You are not condemned by me for serving God on the seventh day or any other day, God is worthy of all worship and praise.

You are also free, pyramid33. As I stated, I am not condemning anyone. However, it is my responsibility to warn others about what I believe to be true regarding YHVH's judgments.

 

[pyramid33]

I am merely sharing my tradition's perspective on YHVH's requirements for the Sabbath.

You are free to do so, anywhere and anytime!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_RyWwHNM6c

 

[ananda]

You are free to do so, anywhere and anytime!

As are you!

 

[LarryP2]

You are free to do so, anywhere and anytime!

That sounds EXACTLY like what Paul said Christians have the right to do when he argued the Mosaic Law was "nailed to the cross!" That's EXACTLY what Seventh Day Adventists condemn in Sunday-Worshiping Christians!

You guys don't really believe in the Law, because it is simply a personal whim of yours that determines what sections of it apply or not, and which punishments apply or not. You can pretend that your "escape clause" is valid, wherein there is no existing Temple and no Levitical Priesthood, therefore some or all of the laws do not apply. That is NOT what the situation was when Paul wrote the Epistles, nor is it the position of the majority of Judaic law experts today. The lack of a Temple and Levitical Priesthood emphatically does not nullify the law or excuse violations of it, especially if you are under it and are trying to claim that everyone should follow it.

Your "law" then is simply indistinguishable from Christians who declare the Mosaic Law has no application to Christians. This article trashes the idea of a subjective "law" that has no enforcement capability:

“Oh, enforcement is not an issue because we ‘do’ the Law out of our love for God and want to honor Him”, the Law ‘keepers’ will say, as they commit their lives to Torah pursuance. In reality, those in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism streams of thought pick and choose which laws they follow. They call this practice being ‘Torah pursuant’ – doing what they can as they feel ‘led’."
.....
"So, according to those in Law keeping sects, the Law (jot and tittle) MUST be followed – EXCEPT for the part that makes it potent – but that’s because it was just the curse of the Law that was nailed to the Cross . . . no wait . . . that was just the oral traditions of men that was nailed . . . no . . . it had to be the curses, didn’t it? But aren’t the curses/punishment part of the jots and tittles . . . oh wait . . . what to do with those since the jots and tittles are still there . . . Law is still to be followed . . . jots and tittles because, well, the Earth IS still here, maybe all except for the curse jot and tittles is to be kept . . . . maybe that part of the Law doesn’t have jots and tittles . . . .Unsure??"
.....
"The ‘Law’ that those in Law keeping sects ‘keep’ is impotent. It is not at all THE Law as it was given to Moses. And those who mandate the keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law insult both the Law which after the Cross leads us to Christ, and the Blood of Christ, which frees us from sin. One of the Law keepers’ main points of persuasion is to tell us over and over again that “God does not change – and neither does His Law!”, yet they totally toss the penalty portion of the Law as they attempt to ‘keep’ the Law."

http://joyfullygrowingingrace.wordpress.com/2010/08/25/is-law-really-law-without-enforcement/

 

[ananda]

You can pretend that your "escape clause" is valid, wherein there is no existing Temple and no Levitical Priesthood, therefore some or all of the laws do not apply. That is NOT what the situation was when Paul wrote the Epistles, nor is it the position of the majority of Judaic law experts today. The lack of a Temple and Levitical Priesthood emphatically does not nullify the law, if you are under it and are trying to claim that everyone should follow it.

Thanks for sharing your personal perspective on observance of the Law.

 

[pyramid33]

That sounds EXACTLY like what Paul said Christians have the right to do when he argued the Mosaic Law was "nailed to the cross!" That's EXACTLY what Seventh Day Adventists condemn in Sunday-Worshiping Christians!

You guys don't really believe in the Law, because it is simply a personal whim of yours that determines what sections of it apply or not, and which punishments apply or not. You can pretend that your "escape clause" is valid, wherein there is no existing Temple and no Levitical Priesthood, therefore some or all of the laws do not apply. That is NOT what the situation was when Paul wrote the Epistles, nor is it the position of the majority of Judaic law experts today. The lack of a Temple and Levitical Priesthood emphatically does not nullify the law or excuse violations of it, especially if you are under it and are trying to claim that everyone should follow it.

Your "law" then is simply indistinguishable from Christians who declare the Mosaic Law has no application to Christians. This article trashes the idea of a subjective "law" that has no enforcement capability:

“Oh, enforcement is not an issue because we ‘do’ the Law out of our love for God and want to honor Him”, the Law ‘keepers’ will say, as they commit their lives to Torah pursuance. In reality, those in the Hebrew Roots/Messianic Judaism streams of thought pick and choose which laws they follow. They call this practice being ‘Torah pursuant’ – doing what they can as they feel ‘led’."
.....
"So, according to those in Law keeping sects, the Law (jot and tittle) MUST be followed – EXCEPT for the part that makes it potent – but that’s because it was just the curse of the Law that was nailed to the Cross . . . no wait . . . that was just the oral traditions of men that was nailed . . . no . . . it had to be the curses, didn’t it? But aren’t the curses/punishment part of the jots and tittles . . . oh wait . . . what to do with those since the jots and tittles are still there . . . Law is still to be followed . . . jots and tittles because, well, the Earth IS still here, maybe all except for the curse jot and tittles is to be kept . . . . maybe that part of the Law doesn’t have jots and tittles . . . .Unsure??"
.....
"The ‘Law’ that those in Law keeping sects ‘keep’ is impotent. It is not at all THE Law as it was given to Moses. And those who mandate the keeping of Mosaic Covenant Law insult both the Law which after the Cross leads us to Christ, and the Blood of Christ, which frees us from sin. One of the Law keepers’ main points of persuasion is to tell us over and over again that “God does not change – and neither does His Law!”, yet they totally toss the penalty portion of the Law as they attempt to ‘keep’ the Law."

Is Law Really Law Without Enforcement? | Joyfully Growing in Grace

I am a Christian. The law of God is eternal, it is good.

 

[LarryP2]

Thanks for sharing your personal perspective on observance of the Law.

It sounds like you are conceding that Christianity's position that the Mosaic Law was "Nailed to the Cross" is every bit as valid as ones that claim it isn't? Help me out here. Christians think the following is absolutely clear:

Galatians 3:23-25
23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law."

You are saying you aren't being supervised under the law. That's EXACTLY what Christians were told over and over again in the Pauline Epistles.

 

[ananda]

It sounds like you are conceding that Christianity's position that the Mosaic Law was "Nailed to the Cross" is every bit as valid as ones that claim it isn't?

That position may be valid for you, but it is invalid under my tradition. I am merely accepting that you and others may believe and interpret differently, and it will be up to YHVH (not me) to judge all in the end.

 

[pyramid33]

It sounds like you are conceding that Christianity's position that the Mosaic Law was "Nailed to the Cross" is every bit as valid as ones that claim it isn't?

All that have truly accepted God have forsaken the serpent and admitted that God is far superior. Superiority itself. The law plagued Paul because he was a breaker of the law in that he persecuted Christians, that truly believed in God.