Coming out of the theistic evolution closet

[OneLastBreath]

Actually, what you are saying is that God's word is not reliable, so lets pretend it doesn't mean what it was plainly intended to mean.

Actually, what I am saying is that your interpretation of God's word is not reliable, so lets look for evidence where it's actually provided to see what it was plainly intended to mean.
Leave your opinions where they belong...in statements of your own beliefs, not your view of mine. It's exactly that attitude that, when I was in a period of ambivalence regarding origins, drove me away from YEC. The preaching that OECs/TEs are Bible compromising heretics and are obviously idiots because we believe differently than you. I know exactly what I said, so don't twist my words. Actually, that's putting it much too kindly- dont lie. Furthermore, accusing me of not trusting in the Bible is a personal attack on my faith, prohibited by the rules of Christian Forums. Please learn to show some respect for people whose views differ from yours, and you will receive the same.

 

[herev]

Hello old friend, welcome back!
First, let's break this post down, it's too long to handle all at once, OK?

Who says Genesis 1 and 2 are not history?

TE's

 

[herev]

Herev, I am surprised by this reasoning, it sounds too much like that of a non-believer. 'You choose your belief, I choose mine.' Sure we each choose, but some worry about those who they think are choosing the wrong belief. Don't you agree? Atheist who choose not to believe in God, do you not worry about them?

You misunderstand my post. Micaiah said, God doesn't let us choose. I said, sure he does. This, for someone who believes in free will, is fundamental. I was merely stating my strong veiws that we all have choices. To say otherwise is not to recognize that we DO interpret it differently or to insinuate that we are not in control of our own ideas on what to believe or not believe

And creationists who worry about theistic evolutionists putting some faith in men by believing theories men came up with to be true. Where else with the theistic evolutionists be lead, that is what creationists worry about.

regardless of how many times you say this, it doesn't make it true. My faith is not in men, but in God. My TE beliefs have been held for decades, but it hasn't led me anywhere like what you worry about, really--it hasn't.

Creationism leads one to the Bible, theistic evolution leads one to works of scientists such as Darwin. This is not to say you don't read the Bible, but you look to those who are scientists for understanding of the beginning, when it is written in Genesis. It is a simple fact, or what should we say theory...

Theistic Evolution did NOT lead me to works of scientist. I do not look to men, I look to the creation. Yes, Darwin, among others has clarified and written out what creation tells us in a way that makes sense to me, but please hear me when I say this--I do not have any less faith than you in the Bible, and my faith is not ever in men.

 

[herev]

This there not a fundamental flaw in your last statement I quoted above. Creationists don't have Moses here to talk with to understand Genesis. But we have scientists here to tell us. Am I correct in reading this?

no, again, you have misinterpreted and taken it out of context. Let's take a bigger chunck of the quote instead of the part that you pulled out:
I said:

Why is it that creationists so want to put words in our mouths instead of believing what we say we believe
hmmmm, oddly enough that's their beef with us in the creation accounts--that we should just believe the words as literal.
HOwever, with Genesis, we don't have access to the writer to ask, so we interpret differently than creationists.
In this case, creationists do have the writers here to ask and, you know what, we really meant what we said. Believe it.

Here the issue is this. Creationists want us to take Genesis 1 and 2 literally--six literal 24 hour days. Our flaw according to creationists is that we look elsewhere instead of what is plainly written in the text.
YET, when I say "we don't put our faith in men," you say, "yes, you really do"
So, my point is that with Genesis 1 and 2, we interpret it one way and you interpret it another, when in reality, the one who penned it is not here to ask.
BUT, when I OR ANOTHER TE posts something, despite the fact that we are right here to say we acutally meant what we said, creationists won't take OUR words literally. I was not talking about scientists, I was talking about TE's in THIS thread.

So because we have scientists here we should follow them? This is the worry of a creationists, or at least myself. I do not poke fun at TE's, at least I have never meant to. It is a common concern that I have for TE's as well as non-believers, who will either follow.

as I keep saying, put your concerns at ease

You know some Glory is taken away from God by TE's.It is relatively easy to see.

no more or less so than creationists do in our opinion!

TE's and others with a belief in evolution give much credit to man for their theories on evolution.In this way glory is not completely given to God, it is shared with God and men.

I give credit to a scientist because he made a shrewd observation and put it down, I do not worship him, or give him glory. I give Edison credit for creating the light Bulb, but you don't worry I will give glory to him and thereby taking it away from God, do you? Why not?

Because TE's say God created by evolution, but it took man to figure it out through the creation. So the glory is split between man and God. God does not get the full Glory.

But God created us with DNA, but it was a man (actually 2) who figured it out. Giving them credit does not steal glory from God, it accentuates it for me.

Men are attributed for their theories, TE's point to their works to back up there belief. Haven't many of the TE's pointed to Darwin to back up their beliefs, even you herev? Why didn't you point to God? Isn't HE suppose to receive full Glory for all He has created?

AGain, God gets all the glory from me, DArwin's work just shows me how incredible God's creation and power and wisdom actually is.
I always point to God and He always receives full Glory.

 

[herev]

Everytime you look to evolution ask yourself if you are looking to God or men.

I don't look to evolution as my God, I do not look to evolution at all, I look to God's creation--we have it right here to study--to help me see God and interpret his scriptures

Ask yourself if you are giving Glory to God, when you believe that man remained through evolution because of himself.

Here is your fundamental flaw that you fail to give TE's credit where credit is due--the "T" in TE is Theistic--from Theism--from Webster's which admittedly allows for other religions, but not one without God:
belief in the existence of a god or gods; specifically : belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of man and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world
source:
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=theistic
we do not believe man remained through evolution BECAUSE OF HIMSELF, but BECAUSE OF GOD.

Does evolution ever talk about God? Any mention, no matter how small? Does it? Does it give the slightest of Glory to Him? Or is this where TE's come in and save the day. They take the same evolutionary theory with no mention of God, and say God started it. Alright we had a theory with no Glory going to God, now God can share some Glory with men and we will call ourselves Theist Evolutionists. Evolution through God, or God through evolution. Well at least TE's can give God some Glory.

thanks for that, but this is another fundamental flaw in your argument. Darwin's theries were never, stress NEVER, intended to say ANYTHING about God--it was not developed to discuss who or why, but HOW. The TE's looked at it and it makes sense when looking at the world in which God placed us and said, Oh, so that's how God did it!

 

[herev]

I am asking you herev, to seriously think about this before you respond.

I have seriously thought about this for decades.

You will initially want to respond to me saying I am wrong. I am confused. I don't understand. I speak foolishly, and I dillusional.

I will only say that about what you insist I believe when it does not represent what I believe. I have not tried, even once to convince you to believe in any form of evolution, and I don't know who's right--I do know my beliefs are firmly rooted in my belief of God, Jesus, and the HOly Spirit.

But who is to say I am.

in the context of the above answer--I AM TO SAY YOU ARE WRONG. AGain, I speak not of your creationist views, but of you failing views of me and what I believe. That I can and will speak to.

Will God count me wrong if I am wrong because I went to the Bible to understand the beginning? Will God count you wrong if you are wrong because you went to men to understand the beginning?

Obviously there is only one TRUTH as in which way God actually created the world. I seriously (IMHO) doubt that either of us has it right, but God will count me as righteous because I am saved by the blood of the lamb--as you are as well.

Where will these men take you in the future and will you follow? Even if it goes on to take more Glory from God?

The "men" haven't taken me anywhere so far--And I've been a TE much longer than you've even been a Christian, so why are you so worried, when I tell you over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over--that my faith is secure--I believe much as you do, but on this one point, we simply disagree. Why is it so important for you that I change on this issue, when it is not affecting my faith negatively at all (in fact, what you and other creationists fail to see is that for some, TE is a help)?

Well ask yourself, are men getting credit for this theory? Are they being rewarded?

Darwin is dead, but still gets credit. Rewards--he was ostracized by many family and friends, and the especially the church--no.

Do they make mention of God?

NO, the theory was not about God, why is that difficult to understand?

Do you know for a fact, that you would stake your salvation on it, that they are correct? I am not saying your salvation is on the line, but it could be if you follow them even farther in their future theories.

CAreful Godsaves about that line you are about to cross. My salvation is not only not dependent on Genesis 1 and 2, but as I have repeatedly said, it is secure--and it is secured by Jesus Christ, not Darwin, and not creationists.

 

[herev]

Think for a moment, could this be something Satan could use as a tool to confuse and derail Christians? Is Satan really this smart, this much of a deceiver? Would he really have men tell me lies, lead me slowly away from God without me noticing?

Have you ever seen satan? I have. He didn't attempt to say one thing to me about creation or evolution, but He did come to destroy. I have no doubt after that encounter that I will recognize him anytime he shows his face. What SAtan will do is tell one group of Christians that Christians who hold seprarte views from them are in danger of losing their souls, causing strife and judgment of salvation from one Christian to another, thus tempting them to assume the role of Christ--He has always liked to confuse roles and tempt people to believe they have the right to be God--think Genesis 3's image of the serpant and Eve--He tempted Eve to be the same as God--and she took it! He tempted Christ to assume a role God hadn't given him. He's good at that.

How far will you be lead by the evolutionary theory?

asked and answered, it's time you actually believed me on this one!

Can something that seems harmless actually be harmful, could Satan actually work this way? Maybe we all can see and understand completely how Satan can work and deceive, so then we are never deceived. Or maybe Satan is just a bit way beyond us and really is a great deceiver and this could be one of his tricks, great deceptions for the masses.

Could it be? Yes, could it also be the opposite, could it be that he whispers in someone's ear--take it literally--take it literally, go out and judge those who are different.
Now I don't believe that, but sure, it could be.

You know for non-believers(atheists mainly) the one of the hardest thing for them to get over to become a Christian is evolution.

Actually, more times than not, when I am dealing with a complete unbeliever (as I was today in my office), the hardest problem I have seen for them to overcome is being told that once they become a Christian, they will have to STOP beliving in evolution or anything that is not literally taught in the Bible. It has been my experience (as was the case with this young woman today) that they fell they are being told that in order to be a Christian, they have to check their brain at the door--no thinking--we'll tell you what to believe.

Maybe that is where TE's come in saying it is ok to give glory to men and Glory to God. Compromise.

I resent that--I have never compromised anything to do with God, I simply do not feel it is necessary to limit God's creation abilities the way in which you do.

Carefull in your beliefs that you do not compromise your soul.

stepping ever closer to that line

 

[herev]

I do not say any of this to belittle you or to hurt you. I say this out of care as a brother as many of our discussions have been. This really isn't about evolution it is more about who you will allow to seperate you from God, little by little without you knowing it. Even with you arguing that you are not.

Have you listened to any of the TE's in here? TE has not separated me from God--nor will it, nor would I let it.
Romans 8
37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,[1] neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

YOu do not know me--I have deliberately been very patient, but you continue to say things about me that are not so. While I appreciate your lack of intent in hurting or belittling, both are accomlished by sanctimoniously believing that you understand me better than I know myself AND by your veiled judgments on the status of my soul

 

[herev]

Have you listened to any of the TE's in here? TE has not separated me from God--nor will it, nor would I let it.

and ps, if it will separate YOU from God, I will be the first in line to support YOU for not believing it, but I am not being separated from God by not taking a literal view of Genesis 1 and 2

 

[Micaiah]

Actually, what I am saying is that your interpretation of God's word is not reliable, so lets look for evidence where it's actually provided to see what it was plainly intended to mean.

You are trusting is man's interpretation of the evidence. You and others who try to reconcile Scripture with the TOE have elevated that interpretation above the plain teaching of Scripture.

Since the dawn of time, satan has sought to discredit and undermine the Word of God. That is how the world got into the mess it is in today.

Chapter 2

15Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Chapter 3

1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said to the woman, "Has God indeed said, "You shall not eat of every tree of the garden'?"
2And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, "You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die."'
4Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die. 5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
6So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.

 

[rmwilliamsll]

You are trusting is man's interpretation of the evidence. You and others who try to reconcile Scripture with the TOE have elevated that interpretation above the plain teaching of Scripture.

Since the dawn of time, satan has sought to discredit and undermine the Word of God. That is how the world got into the mess it is in today.

The church has always used the best wisdom of the world to interact with and interpret the Scriptures.
You don't believe in a solid firmament over a flat earth.
nor do you believe hell is beneath your feet a few miles, nor that the sun and stars revolve around the earth (but that the moon does)

what you do seem to believe is that fixing Biblical interpretation in the early 1800's is a righteous thing to do, when using science and earthly wisdom up to that point. and then stop when you hit something you can't integrate.

this only makes you a 19thcentury compromiser according to your own words.

our only difference is that we allowed time to advance on hermeneutics rather than to try to stop it in 1825.


-----

 

[Elbereth]

You know some Glory is taken away from God by TE's.

I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure. After all, I still believe God created the universe and has control over it. Designing it in such a way that it can produce life with little intervention is actually more impressive to me than speaking it into existence as it is now. Additionally, evolution allows life to be self-correcting, in a way. If conditions change, life can adapt. I think, though, we can all agree that the universe is something pretty special and amazing, and God does deserve glory for it, however he made it.

 

[herev]

I think, though, we can all agree that the universe is something pretty special and amazing, and God does deserve glory for it, however he made it.

Amen

 

[OneLastBreath]

You are trusting is man's interpretation of the evidence. You and others who try to reconcile Scripture with the TOE have elevated that interpretation above the plain teaching of Scripture.

Since the dawn of time, satan has sought to discredit and undermine the Word of God. That is how the world got into the mess it is in today.

Nope, I'm trusting the evidence in Creation, which like any interpretation of Scriptures, yours or mine, must be interpreted by man. Since the question of what is the proper interpretation of Genesis is unanswerable within the context of the Bible itself, we must turn to other ways in which God speaks to us. And I see in Creation what isn't in the Bible- the answer to how God created the Universe. Like unimportant people in Biblical geneologies, it was a minor detail that was left out of the Scriptures, as it paled next to the important fact that God created the Universe and he did so because it was good. What isn't in one message from God to us is in another.

Of course Satan has been trying to undermine God's Word since the beginning. But before you go calling us minions of the devil, stop to think about how the Church has reacted to science in the past. The Church established that it was un-Biblical to believe that the Sun may be at the centre of the Universe, because of the story of the Sun standing still for a day. Any who opposed them was labeled a heretic and forced to recant. Now we know for a fact that the earth orbits the Sun. I could argue that it was devil, working to undermine the Scriptures, that helped the geocentric theory to grow to such importance, knowing that the Church would take a beating for it later. And now you don't hear Church leaders saying that any scientific theory that accepts heliocentrism as truth must be the work of the devil and that any good Christian must accept the literal interpretation of the story of the Sun standing still. They don't say if you accept it then you are disregarding God's Word for man's. They recognize that when the Bible said the Sun stood still, it was a description of what the people saw, not a literal account of what actually happened. Why would God have said something that's not to be taken literally in his word? Because it's an unimportant detail! God kept it light for 24 hours so his people could win a battle! Did it really matter how he did it? No. So it was left out. God created the entire Universe! Did it really matter how he did it? No. So it was left out. The Bible wasn't designed to be a science textbook. The creation account in Genesis answers the question of why. We aren't comprosmising the Bible. We're using God's Creation to answer questions it doesn't bother addressing.

 

[GodSaves]

I used to think so, but now I'm not so sure. After all, I still believe God created the universe and has control over it. Designing it in such a way that it can produce life with little intervention is actually more impressive to me than speaking it into existence as it is now. Additionally, evolution allows life to be self-correcting, in a way. If conditions change, life can adapt. I think, though, we can all agree that the universe is something pretty special and amazing, and God does deserve glory for it, however he made it.[/color]
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Do you think glory is taken away from God, when it is viewed that God created matter so man can eventually created himself. Evolution teaches not of God creating man, but man created himself through billions of years. Would this not give some glory to man for getting himself to where he is today? Evolution gives man credit for evolving himself to where he is today. And evolution further states that man will continue to evolve to a higher state of being. Evolution is a nice pat on mans back for getting himself to be civilized, intelligent, creative, philosophical, and highly adaptive. Such a magnificant feat for man. Evolution, in part, is flat out how man got himself to where he is today. It is all about man, not God. And that says to me man is getting the glory. So then you mix teachings of God, which gives God Glory, with teachings of man that gives man glory, and we have Glory to God, glory to man, nice compromise. But lets do what man does best and deny it. We are not compromising because we turn to Darwin and not God for the answers. Oh we believe God created everything so it could be set in motion, but man evolved, man got himself where he is today, maybe there was some help from God, but man evolved. Nice compromise. I will be the fool for Christ who checks his brain at the door, you can be the wise. The claim of others saying they don't try to get me to believe there way is the same claim made by atheists. Maybe there is a shared belief of tolerance, and/or amorality. How can anyone person who is not a scientists say they look to creation and can see that man evolved from an ape type ancestor? Can you be so conclusive without any help from scientists? Or did you take their teachings and used it to make your observation? If so, then you have relied on scientists to be right.
You are so aware of who and what Satan does, then why do you sin? If you know how to spot him why do you sin? Or maybe you think you don't. If you can spot Satan and still sin then what does this say? I would highly suggest you retract your statement you made. Because if you recongize that you are a sinner and also say you can recongize Satan when he comes to tempt you then you might be infering you are following two masters. Because you follow Christ, and then when Satan tempts you, you sin even though you know it is him. This sounds like you are saying that you either don't sin, or that you know it is Satan but choose to follow him too time from time. I know you don't mean this, but this is how it looked to me.

It is more impressive to me that God can just say something and a man appears, then it taking billions of years of trying to perfect itself. Is it not impressive to others when someone does a trick they get it just right on the first try, or is it more impressive when it takes them all their life to get it right? Maybe you are not impressed with young atheletes who are gifted but rather with ones who took 20 years or so to get there. Maybe you are more impressed with a person who goes to jail for crimes and comes out living life by the law then with one who always lives their life by the law. I guess it shows you how screwed up our world is. People are more impressed with gangsters who have killed people and are now rappers who make millions then with people who have devoted their lives to God by going on missions in third world countries.

It does not seem that impressive to me that it would take billions of years for things to actually perfect themselves to be in existence as we know them now. I agree with adaptation, survival of the fitest, but man evolving from bacteria and taking billions of years of mistakes to finally get it right. Yah, sure.

The God that I have come to know and love does not make mistakes to get it right. When the thinks it, it shall come to pass. Not billions of years later. But maybe that verse in the Bible isn't suppose to be read literally. Yah, sure.

Take Care and realize my sarcasm and frustration is not at any person but rather at the teaching.

God Bless

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Evolution does not teach man will evolve into a higher being. Evolution has no goal. Things do not get better. They just get more suited to deal with their surroundings.

 

[Andy D]

I have travelled away from the cities and seen the wonderous works of God's hands in creation. It is very impressive to know that God created all things and it was good. The fact that man sinned and fell short of the glory of God, just highlights the glory of God even more when we see His perfection compared to our imperfection. The world was created in perfection but sin destroyed all that.

I wouldnt find it at all impressive if God created the world through evolution over billions of years in order to get to perfection. I hate to think of those who were half ape and half human and had half a soul?? But then I am sure theistic evolutionists have many great theories for the soul. I get told I am trying to make the evidence fit the gaps in the Bible when believing in creation. I think it is more like in order to believe in God creating, and evolution (Theistic evolution) you would need to bridge many more gaps to fit the Bible and Christianity.

I like your post Godsaves

God bless you all

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

I have travelled away from the cities and seen the wonderous works of God's hands in creation. It is very impressive to know that God created all things and it was good. The fact that man sinned and fell short of the glory of God, just highlights the glory of God even more when we see His perfection compared to our imperfection. The world was created in perfection but sin destroyed all that.

I wouldnt find it at all impressive if God created the world through evolution over billions of years in order to get to perfection. I hate to think of those who were half ape and half human and had half a soul?? But then I am sure theistic evolutionists have many great theories for the soul. I get told I am trying to make the evidence fit the gaps in the Bible when believing in creation. I think it is more like in order to believe in God creating, and evolution (Theistic evolution) you would need to bridge many more gaps to fit the Bible and Christianity.

I like your post Godsaves

God bless you all

We never reached perfection.

 

[Andy D]

We never reached perfection.

Genesis is clear on the fact that God said it was good. Until we first sinned, what was there to stop everything from being perfect? By eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we knew sin. This was the only tree not to be eaten of because once we ate of it, we would know sin and come under the law and once under the law we must be measured against God's standard and that was perfection. We could never achieve this now we have a sinful desire to fulfil the flesh instead of bringing glory to God as we were intended to and once again will when we meet in heaven. We were created in the image of God. If everything was not perfect back then, I would like to know why God created us in His image and made us not perfect? Sorry, I dont have a deep understanding of theology in this area but I am learning.

 

[Orthodox Andrew]

Genesis is clear on the fact that God said it was good. Until we first sinned, what was there to stop everything from being perfect? By eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we knew sin. This was the only tree not to be eaten of because once we ate of it, we would know sin and come under the law and once under the law we must be measured against God's standard and that was perfection. We could never achieve this now we have a sinful desire to fulfil the flesh instead of bringing glory to God as we were intended to and once again will when we meet in heaven. We were created in the image of God. If everything was not perfect back then, I would like to know why God created us in His image and made us not perfect? Sorry, I dont have a deep understanding of theology in this area but I am learning.

Well, when we think about God making us in his image, we would never assume he made us exactly like him, would we? I mean he didn't make mini-Gods.


He made us in his image, yes. But that means not the physical, but the spiritual. We have an immortal soul. We have the ability to think and practice free will. We have the ability to love. These are what is meant by image. Not the idea of literally being perfect like God himself.

P.S. We are all still learning.