Coming out of the theistic evolution closet

[seebs]

I wouldnt find it at all impressive if God created the world through evolution over billions of years in order to get to perfection.

You wouldn't?

Okay, so, let me tell you the Parable of the Pool Tables.

There are two pool tables. Each has a rack with 15 balls in it.

One man walks up to a table, takes the rack off the table, then walks around the table plucking balls from the center and dropping them in pockets.

The other table... Man walks up to it, walks around a few times muttering, lines up the cue ball, breaks... And all fifteen balls end up in pockets, after bouncing around off each other and the table a few times.

Why do you say that the first guy's feat is more impressive than the second?

Creation in six days may be many things, but impressive is not one of 'em. You can easily imagine a more impressive feat; for instance, doing it in just five days, or three, or one! Of course, that misses the point... But then, so does finding it "impressive" if God created everything in a week, but "not impressive" if He did it by setting a few things up so it would just happen on its own.

If it was all done at once, it's pretty odd that we have such serious joint problems, because we share the bone structure of most of the mammalian quadrupeds, and there are plenty of designs out there for bipeds which work a lot better, but we get stuck with the mammal bone structure and joints, even when there are better models out there.

If this is how it came together, it's pretty impressive.

 

[thekawasakikid]

TEs are clearly able to resolve the apparent differences between creation and evolution. In our Sunday morning class on so-called Christian Evidences I referred to in my 'Peppered Moths' thread, I challenged the notion that evolutionists were 'they' and that it was a creation/evolution fight. I was rounded against and firmly told that 'a mixture of evolution and creation cannot fly' and there were various comments about the 'theological implications' of TE...

...except that since I began questioning the validity of a literal creation, my faith in God and the crucifixion and resurrection of the Son of God (for the redemption of mankind) has never wavered, and has never been called into doubt - by me, anyway.

So what gives someone who cannot (or refuses to) understand my interpretation the right to denounce my beliefs?

 

[seebs]

So what gives someone who cannot (or refuses to) understand my interpretation the right to denounce my beliefs?

Nothing.

Consider, for a moment... Who here is attacking faith? Not you. Why are they attacking faith?

 

[gluadys]

Do you think glory is taken away from God, when it is viewed that God created matter so man can eventually created himself. Evolution teaches not of God creating man, but man created himself through billions of years. Would this not give some glory to man for getting himself to where he is today?

Since the process is quite automatic and unconscious and did not involve any intent or action of man, why would it give any credit to man? Does not all the credit go to the designer of the process---namely to God?

And evolution further states that man will continue to evolve to a higher state of being.

No, it does not. It says man may continue to evolve, not that man will continue to evolve. And it says nothing about man becoming a higher or lower being, biologically.

On the other hand, our faith teaches us that we will become higher beings in the resurrection.

Evolution is a nice pat on mans back for getting himself to be civilized, intelligent, creative, philosophical, and highly adaptive. Such a magnificant feat for man.

This has nothing to do with biological evolution. This is culture, not biology. Biological evolution is not a feat of man. It is a feat of God. Man may take credit for building a culture, a civilization, but not for evolution.

It is more impressive to me that God can just say something and a man appears, then it taking billions of years of trying to perfect itself.

Evolution is not intended to produce perfection. Evolution produces adaptation. I find it impressive that God, knowing that the environmental circumstances on earth would go through many different phases, endowed living things with the ability to evolve adaptations to different circumstances, and then used their ability to evolve to create myriads of different species, including, eventualy, one on whom God could confer his own image.

 

[herev]

Evolution teaches not of God creating man, but man created himself through billions of years.

Man creating himself?

Have you read any of my previous posts? Theistic Evolution teaches that God created. And so far, I have never heard anyone use the phrase "man created himself." even when referring to evolution without God--never (until now)

 

[herev]

You are so aware of who and what Satan does, then why do you sin? If you know how to spot him why do you sin? Or maybe you think you don't. If you can spot Satan and still sin then what does this say? I would highly suggest you retract your statement you made. Because if you recongize that you are a sinner and also say you can recongize Satan when he comes to tempt you then you might be infering you are following two masters. Because you follow Christ, and then when Satan tempts you, you sin even though you know it is him. This sounds like you are saying that you either don't sin, or that you know it is Satan but choose to follow him too time from time. I know you don't mean this, but this is how it looked to me.

I sin because I am human, flawed, weak, willful, etc. I learned a long time ago to not blame Satan for my sins--that's a copout. The Devil Made Me Do It worked for Flip Wilson, but not for us--we have free will. You highly suggest I retract which statement? Are you ONCE AGAIN suggesting that you know me better than I know myself?

 

[herev]

It is more impressive to me that God can just say something and a man appears, then it taking billions of years of trying to perfect itself. Is it not impressive to others when someone does a trick they get it just right on the first try, or is it more impressive when it takes them all their life to get it right? Maybe you are not impressed with young atheletes who are gifted but rather with ones who took 20 years or so to get there. Maybe you are more impressed with a person who goes to jail for crimes and comes out living life by the law then with one who always lives their life by the law. I guess it shows you how screwed up our world is. People are more impressed with gangsters who have killed people and are now rappers who make millions then with people who have devoted their lives to God by going on missions in third world countries.

(words above in bold are bolded by herev)

Good, I think God CAN do anything He wants to do!!! I just think He did use evolution to do it, we are not the ones putting limitations on God. We do not tell you (most of us) that you cannot believe in creation. Instead, we tell you we don't and ask you to accept that we are just as faithful and Christian as you are. I put no limitations on God--none. I think God didn't need anywhere near 144 hours to create the earth--he could have done it in a nano-second. My God is that powerful. As a TE, I don't think man spent any time trying to perfect himself. God did it. God did it. God did it. God did it. God did it. God did it. God did it. God did it. God did it.

YEA GOD!!!!

The rest of that paragraph is nonsense.

 

[herev]

It does not seem that impressive to me that it would take billions of years for things to actually perfect themselves to be in existence as we know them now. I agree with adaptation, survival of the fitest, but man evolving from bacteria and taking billions of years of mistakes to finally get it right. Yah, sure.

Ok, you asked me to do this, so now your turn. Really think about this for a moment.
I do not believe anything perfected itself--Did I mention earlier God did it? Oh Yeah, I did. But wouldn't it be impressive if God mixed up just the right ingredients in just the right combination and just the right percentages at just the right time in such a way so that he could set it all in motion and billions of years later, you are sitting at your keyboard using digits at the end of one of your upper extremities, looking with your optical globes at squiggly lines on a screen, and processing everything with lobes of grey matter and understanding everything I am typing miles and miles away. Wouldn't that be impressive if GOD did that? I'm not asking if you believe in evolution--I know the answer to that. But wouldn't it be impressive if God so created the world and those tiny bacteria you mention with you and I in mind, knowing what was going to happen all along long before it did? You can't really deny that would be impressive as well.

 

[herev]

The God that I have come to know and love does not make mistakes to get it right.

Good, same for the God that I have come to know and love--must be we worship the same God--imagine that!

When the thinks it, it shall come to pass.

agreed here, too!!!

Not billions of years later.

Well, we disagree there, but part of the misunderstanding may be that you think that TE's are deists. We are not necessarily. We do not believe as they do, that God created the earth and sat back and let thing happen without his even being there. I believe that He was right there all along, watching and caring for his beloved creation--for all those billions of years.

But maybe that verse in the Bible isn't suppose to be read literally.

I agree with this statement!!! Gosh, when I take your words out of context, I can get you to say just about anything, huh?

 

[herev]

Take Care and realize my sarcasm and frustration is not at any person but rather at the teaching.

God Bless

I think the problem is you want to limit God--you don't think he could have used evolution if he wanted to to create. YOu don't think God is big enough--that's the deal, isn't it? Be careful how you limit God. The ancient Baal worshippers did that, and through Elijah's prayers they were all burned up. God is all powerful and can do anything He so chooses. To deny that He can do anything could lead you to a point where you don't think he is powerful enough to save you.

 

[Breetai]

I've been lurking here for some time now, and this is my first post. I'm sure none of you care about my background, but to make things clear: I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, and I went to a very conservative private school during my elementary and middle school years. My teachers were very clear that evolution was an evil ideology, as well as being factually incorrect. This caused me some difficulty in high school, but eventually I realized that the things I was learning in biology made sense. The breakthrough was, oddly enough, the theories on where mitochondria came from. Anyhow, the question is this: how do I tell my parents, friends, and people at my church that I accept the current scientific theories on the origins of diversity in life? I've also got to 'fess up about the Big Bang and an old earth, but that's not part of theistic evolution, so I'll leave it for another thread, I guess. Any good articles, essays, or books?

That's funny. I came the other way around. At all of my schools, it was the current scientific understanding which I was taught. Even in University(which is Christian run), evolution is taught as a fact. I came to believe what you grew up in and now reject.

Since you are still Christian, I think that you should be stressing that to your parents when you tell them that you think that a literal creation is BS. Give them the reasons why you have come to your conclusions and they should at least repect the fact that you have thought it out.

Is it better just never to bring it up?

If it doesn't come up, I wouldn't bother to bring it up. If it does, then you should probably tell your folks where you stand so they don't wrongfully assume that you agree with them on everything.

 

[Andy D]

You wouldn't?

Okay, so, let me tell you the Parable of the Pool Tables.

There are two pool tables. Each has a rack with 15 balls in it.

One man walks up to a table, takes the rack off the table, then walks around the table plucking balls from the center and dropping them in pockets.

The other table... Man walks up to it, walks around a few times muttering, lines up the cue ball, breaks... And all fifteen balls end up in pockets, after bouncing around off each other and the table a few times.

Why do you say that the first guy's feat is more impressive than the second?

Creation in six days may be many things, but impressive is not one of 'em. You can easily imagine a more impressive feat; for instance, doing it in just five days, or three, or one! Of course, that misses the point... But then, so does finding it "impressive" if God created everything in a week, but "not impressive" if He did it by setting a few things up so it would just happen on its own.

If it was all done at once, it's pretty odd that we have such serious joint problems, because we share the bone structure of most of the mammalian quadrupeds, and there are plenty of designs out there for bipeds which work a lot better, but we get stuck with the mammal bone structure and joints, even when there are better models out there.

If this is how it came together, it's pretty impressive.

This doesnt stop creation from being VERY IMPRESSIVE! Creation in 1 day or 6 days is impressive. Doesnt either of these timespans make it impressive as no other being can create everything in billions of years let alone 6 days!

You forget something. Creating something such as all we see around us in 6 days is something sooooo impressive that to not call it impressive is to say God is not impressive, creation is not impressive...in fact...why not just state that nothing God does is impressive. In that case, go your own way and forget He exists...or at least try to.

Imagine the ingeniuty of taking nothing or whatever He created from and turning it all into what we see today, every ecosystem and every thing that has life and all the stars and heavens and the layers of the earth and distances between planets and tilt of the earth and plants that recycle air so living things and continue to have air to breath and all the laws of this universe that hold it all together. I think I could go on and on and on and on for a long time listing all the impressive things that were created by God and for God to create the heavens and the earth in 6 days!!!! WOW!! Imagine Him speaking and it is so! What power! What knowledge! What glory! How awesome is God? WOW!!

 

[Andy D]

Since the process is quite automatic and unconscious and did not involve any intent or action of man, why would it give any credit to man? Does not all the credit go to the designer of the process---namely to God?

No, it does not. It says man may continue to evolve, not that man will continue to evolve. And it says nothing about man becoming a higher or lower being, biologically.

On the other hand, our faith teaches us that we will become higher beings in the resurrection.

Evolution is not intended to produce perfection. Evolution produces adaptation. I find it impressive that God, knowing that the environmental circumstances on earth would go through many different phases, endowed living things with the ability to evolve adaptations to different circumstances, and then used their ability to evolve to create myriads of different species, including, eventualy, one on whom God could confer his own image.

Except this sounds more like some scientific experiment by God to do in His spare time. And whilst we will be perfect once we are in the next life, with God, we wont get there by evolving...LOL

 

[Andy D]

Ok, you asked me to do this, so now your turn. Really think about this for a moment.
I do not believe anything perfected itself--Did I mention earlier God did it? Oh Yeah, I did. But wouldn't it be impressive if God mixed up just the right ingredients in just the right combination and just the right percentages at just the right time in such a way so that he could set it all in motion and billions of years later, you are sitting at your keyboard using digits at the end of one of your upper extremities, looking with your optical globes at squiggly lines on a screen, and processing everything with lobes of grey matter and understanding everything I am typing miles and miles away. Wouldn't that be impressive if GOD did that? I'm not asking if you believe in evolution--I know the answer to that. But wouldn't it be impressive if God so created the world and those tiny bacteria you mention with you and I in mind, knowing what was going to happen all along long before it did? You can't really deny that would be impressive as well.

You cant say "I'm not asking if you believe in evolution--I know the answer to that." Not one person on this earth KNOWS the answer to be evolution. You still must have faith in that theory being the correct one. There is no evidence that proves the theory to the extent that it MUST be correct. Whilst it might be impressive for God to make the right mix of ingredients to produce mankind, it is as impressive for creation and as the Bible says it, it makes it easier to believe in what the Bible states. Then those of us here who are Christians and actually believe the Bible (because many TE's posting in these forums DONT believe a large percentage of the Bible anyhow..surpised?) we have to get into the argument of how is the Bible to be interpreted here and that is where the debate always ends because each side hold to their view that Genesis must be either literal or not literal and that will make a HUGE difference to what they believe as far as TE or YEC.

 

[Andy D]

I think the problem is you want to limit God--you don't think he could have used evolution if he wanted to to create. YOu don't think God is big enough--that's the deal, isn't it? Be careful how you limit God. The ancient Baal worshippers did that, and through Elijah's prayers they were all burned up. God is all powerful and can do anything He so chooses. To deny that He can do anything could lead you to a point where you don't think he is powerful enough to save you.

Now you are treading on dangerous ground here. You are using the arugment that has always been used against evolutionists, but against creationists and it all depends on what you want to call the most impressive feat. Obviously to create everything in 6 days is not possible on its own. It requires a higher being to create...which was God. Evolution is used by non-believers as well to expain there being no God. They are trying to prove it could be done without God. ( I understand you arent trying to prove this but evolution started with the possibility that we evolved rather than were created by God).

I believe it isnt creationists who are limiting God to having created the WHOLE heavens and the earth in 6 days, but rather evolutionists are limiting God by saying He just got the right ingredients together and nurtured us a bit but overall it was a science experiment and it fits nicely with most of what the worldly scientists are believing so we can not have to go against the flow. This way we were not created in the image of God because we started as a completely different lifeform and at what point did we become a lifeform that was in the image of God...or will some cells go to heaven and some apes as well?

 

[OneLastBreath]

No offense everyone, but this whole talk of impressiveness strikes me as rather irrelevant. Just because something would be more impressive doesn't mean at all that that's how God did it. It sure would be impressive if God brought babies into the world by hurling them down from heaven in a little basket and having them gently land on people's doorsteps, perhaps with some lightning and thunder to add effect. It sure would be impressive if instead of giving salmon the intuition of where to go to spawn, God just zapped them into thin air and made them rematerialize at their destination. Impressiveness by human standards hasn't the slightest bearing on how something actually occurs. As Einstein once said, "God is subtle, but malicious he is not." Subtle is the key there. If God did everything in a way that would have the most wow factor for humans, there would be no such as an atheist. And even if God did go for impressive, our teeny tiny brains would be unable to comprehend his standards for it, no more than an ant can understand why a Van Gogh is so impressive to a human. So as enlightening as this debate on whether young earth creation or theistic evolution would be a more impressive method of creating, it's not doing anything for the discussion.

edited to add: some of you got a few posts in while I was typing that. My post is referring to the top of this page and the posts before it.

 

[herev]

You cant say "I'm not asking if you believe in evolution--I know the answer to that." Not one person on this earth KNOWS the answer to be evolution. You still must have faith in that theory being the correct one. There is no evidence that proves the theory to the extent that it MUST be correct. Whilst it might be impressive for God to make the right mix of ingredients to produce mankind, it is as impressive for creation and as the Bible says it, it makes it easier to believe in what the Bible states. Then those of us here who are Christians and actually believe the Bible (because many TE's posting in these forums DONT believe a large percentage of the Bible anyhow..surpised?) we have to get into the argument of how is the Bible to be interpreted here and that is where the debate always ends because each side hold to their view that Genesis must be either literal or not literal and that will make a HUGE difference to what they believe as far as TE or YEC.

you have completely missed my point in this one sentence--I apologize if I wasn't clear. What I said was (as quoted) "I'm not asking if you believe in evolution--I know the answer to that." What I mean is that I know the answer to asking him to believe in evolution--I know that his answer would be no--that's all I meant
If you look at my posts in this thread, I have ALWAYS said the same thing--none of us KNOWS for certain--either way.
as to TEs not believing a large percentage of the Bible--can't say that of me

 

[herev]

Now you are treading on dangerous ground here. You are using the arugment that has always been used against evolutionists, but against creationists and it all depends on what you want to call the most impressive feat. Obviously to create everything in 6 days is not possible on its own. It requires a higher being to create...which was God. Evolution is used by non-believers as well to expain there being no God. They are trying to prove it could be done without God. ( I understand you arent trying to prove this but evolution started with the possibility that we evolved rather than were created by God).

I believe it isnt creationists who are limiting God to having created the WHOLE heavens and the earth in 6 days, but rather evolutionists are limiting God by saying He just got the right ingredients together and nurtured us a bit but overall it was a science experiment and it fits nicely with most of what the worldly scientists are believing so we can not have to go against the flow. This way we were not created in the image of God because we started as a completely different lifeform and at what point did we become a lifeform that was in the image of God...or will some cells go to heaven and some apes as well?

my post was not directed at all creationists, just Godsaves--this is what he believes, please forgive any slight you may have felt from me--it was unintended

 

[GodSaves]

Before I may make a response let me ask this. All TE's that I have seen on here say that the fall of man was not a physical death but a spiritual death, and it was not both. I believe it was both and as I usually do lets bring the Bible for clarification on this matter.

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the TREE OF LIFE and EAT, and LIVE FOREVER.'"

Well it seems the Bible has stated man cannot eat of the tree of life to live forever anymore. And that denotes the first death the physical death, and follow to revelations where it will tell us what the second death is.

Revelations 20:13-15 "The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire."

So there is two deaths, the physical and the spiritual. Adam and Eve could no longer eat of the tree of life and live forever. The spiritual death is when one is thrown into the lake of fire, where in Genesis do we find that Adam was thrown into the lake of fire, thus proving the TE's view point that Adam died a spiritual death? And look again at the part that says Adam and Eve could no longer eat of the tree of life and live forever. No longer LIVE FOREVER. No longer LIVE FOREVER. So the tree of life was intended for Adam and Eve to eat of it and live forever, and the not eating of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was to keep them pure and righteous. Jesus Christ had to come so that we can receive this gift once given to Adam and Eve once again. We will be given new bodies that will live forever and we will be righteous and pure again. Two trees, two distinct deaths. Why are we taught not to fear death? Because death has no power over us, our bodies will rise once again. Physical death is not permanent for those who believe in Jesus Christ. And those who believe in Jesus Christ become righteous in God's eyes because Christ lives in the believer thus saving us from the second death. We are saved from two deaths not one.

Well maybe this is only good for those of us who are foolish and leave our brains at the door. I seem to recall Paul saying do not let your mind become conformed with this world but rather with God. Do not listen to mans teachings but God's. Seems quite obvious to me that man came up with the evolutionary theory. I believe Paul also said be a fool for Christ, which obviously I am.

God Bless

 

[Andy D]

my post was not directed at all creationists, just Godsaves--this is what he believes, please forgive any slight you may have felt from me--it was unintended

I read your last two posts and I understand your point now. Thank you for clarifying it.