Coming out of the theistic evolution closet

[herev]

I understand what you're saying but it is also true many believers get insulted because they are hit with the truth of what the scripture is saying and they don't like it because they know they must change their mindset.

Thanks, I agree. I do wish you hadn't sidestepped the first question I asked--about changing the context of the scripture by bolding only parts of it to change the meaning.

I was blessed when I first came to Christ with a pastor who only ever told the truth of God's Word. I wanted to rip his tongue out so many times it wasn't funny. He use to say to me "one day you will understand" but at the time, he would make me sooo angry and it was made worse because he would always be laughing as he said these things.
I didn't understand him then but there was something about him that was different to every other believer I had met. He had real joy and real peace and real grace. There was something about him I can only describe as "supernatural". Today I understand better what I was seeing and why he would make me so angry.

I'm glad you've been blessed with such a pastor. I, too, only tell the truth as the Holy Spirit guides me, based on Scriptures--and coming to understand those scriptures through the traditional readings and understandings of those scriptures, and my own experience and my own reason. I, too have the joy and peace of Christ--and I too have God's grace in my life--But I'm willing to be that your preacher and I don't interpret scripture the same.

You assume wrong. I said son because I can be called a "son of God" as easily as I can be called a "daughter of God" because my life is not in my gender but in Christ. And that makes all the difference in the world. It is what sets me free from gender specifics, and all the "political correctness bs" that the world wants to throw my way.

As long as you are are not discounting half the population in your rendering of scripture, it makes no difference to me how you word it. I, too, am not a fan of political correctness.

You must understand, (indeed all of us) is that when the scripture says...

“For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. Is.55:8

God is not saying He is different to us but that He is the complete opposite to us. How do I know this?

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be." Rom.8:7

The carnal mind is the mind controlled by the flesh and the flesh is where the sin nature dwells.

agreed, what I find strange is that when it comes to the first 2 chapters of the Bible, most creationists seem to think that this verse should read:
For My thoughts are not your thoughts (unless of course, you interpret those passages literally) nor are your ways my ways (especially if you believe in TE), says the Lord. While you quote scripture that tells us that God is beyond our complete understanding, creationists at the same time assume that in this area, they hold a clearer understanding of God than others who are just as saved, just as spirit filled, just as studious, and just as sinful as they are.

You don't need me teaching you these things, they are basic to the Gospel. But what you do need to learn (as well as all of us) is that even once we have accepted Christ that carnal mindset doesn't "magically disappear" and unless we are prepared to deny our own thoughts and ways and take scripture at face value we will never grow in the grace and knowlegde of the Truth that is the Real and Risen Christ.

a couple of assumptions on my part to speed things up--let me know if I am wrong on either
1. I assume by face value, you mean literal?
2. I assume that you do not take the entire bible literally
Are these correct?
Technically, IMHO, we need to read the scriptures as they were intended to be read--I believe that on this point, you and I will agree, no? But we disagree on the intent of the writer of the creation accounts in Genesis. You believe it was to tell a historical description of what happened. I believe it was more akin to an etiology--a story of beginnings--meant to give us insight into God, into humanity, and the relationship between the two.

Christ is not the Jesus who walked this earth 2,000 years ago. Which isn't to say He is someone else but rather when He came, He came as a man which is what we see in the Gospels with just a "hint" of His diety. But when He rose, He took up His mantle as God and when He returns? If it were not for the indwelling Spirit, I dare say 99% of Christians wouldn't even recognise Him. Which really is a stupid thing to say because none of us could recognose Him without the Spirit, but I think you get my meaning.

Yes, Christ is the same--he was self-limited when he came before. We may not see Him the same--but (as a Trinitarian), I believe he is the same today, yesterday, and tomorrow. He only chooses to appear differently, But he has been since the beginning who he is now and who he is when he returns. I have no knowledge of the 99% you speak of, but I do agree, many will not recognize him. Many will assume that he will be carrying only one translation of Bible, or only speak to those who have interpreted Scirpture a certain way--very much like the pharisees when Jesus walked among us, wouldn't you say?

What Genez has been trying to get through to all of us is that the Word is the Truth as it is written not as we want it to fit our own thoughts and ways.

See my above comments here. We all interpret scripture--every last one of us. If we read it literally at every stage--then we interpret. IF we read it allegorically at every stage--then we interpret. You don't read everything in scripture literally, nor do I read everything in scripture allegorically. The only difference is that you read two chapters at the beginning of time literally, I do not.

If the Genesis 1 account is just an allegory? Think it through man.

Please give me the repsect of acknowledging that I have thought through it. I have thought about it for nearly 30 years. I will continue to study it. My mind is not closed to learning new things or changing my mind, but when someone assumes that I have just flipped a coin or gone for what "man says over what God says" then I am usually not open to their teaching. Why? Because if this is where they start, they start with a false assumption. Why would I then trust someone who's entire argument begins that way?

It would mean if God hasn't straightout lied to us then He has, at the very least, kept us in the dark!

Why would it mean that? You have to understand, I believe that this is the way you see it, but not everyone does. To me, that is akin to making the following argument:
God says in Genesis 1 that He created man in his image,
but Psalms 17 says:
6 I call on you, O God, for you will answer me;
give ear to me and hear my prayer.
7 Show the wonder of your great love,
you who save by your right hand
those who take refuge in you from their foes.
8 Keep me as the apple of your eye;
hide me in the shadow of your wings
9 from the wicked who assail me,
from my mortal enemies who surround me.
So, since we don't have wings, neither does God, so he must have lied to us here in the Psalms.
I would guess (only a guess here, since I do not know you) that you don't take Psalm 17 literally to mean God has wings, do you? To not take it literally is to interpret the scriptures.
We do not take the creation accounts literally, that does not mean it was a lie or even that he kept us in the dark, it simply means he didn't think it necessary to describe the how--it is unimportant to our salvation. By the way to read the creation accounts as non-literal does not mean they are not true.

Would you trust a God like that? I know I would soon tell Him to stick it. (but then I always was a rebel! )

I wouldn't trust a god who lied any more than you would--once again, see how much we do actually have in common?

But He hasn't lied and He hasn't kept us in the dark. His light shines forth as the strongest of lights.

Agreed, more in common!!!

He doesn't call us to understand but to believe what He has said for in believing we have Life and from that Life comes understanding and wisdom.

and yet again, we agree. But so many creationists want me to understand and believe their interpretation. I believe in Jesus as Lord and SAvior of my life, just as you do. My salvation is just as secure as yours is. So, we each have belief, and we each have Life, next comes understanding and wisdom as gifts--but we do understand this part of the Bible differently, don't we? Can we not still be friends and allies? and share our understanding and wisdom without beating each other up?

Why do you think Christ is so apt to say "Let he who has an ear, hear!" And to make sure we can? He gives us a "two ears to one mouth ratio".

Not sure your point here, but hey--I promise, despite my interpreting differently than you, I do listen to my Lord and Savior.

You think Gene is being unkind?

What I think of Gene is at best irrelavent.

I know Gene a little. He loves you so much Tommy that he would rather kick your butt all the way to heaven, whacking you around the head and shoulders the whole time if need be, so you don't miss out on one ounce of grace that God can pour out on you than see you with a halflife of "human contentment".

Good for you. I appreaciate Gene's deep love and affection for me, but I am heaven bound without his sarcasm, insults, and "tough love" approach that you and he seem to think I am in need of because I interpret scripture differently than you. Jesus is my Lord and SAvior--it is upon Him that I rest in my salvation--it is through Him that I continue to work out my salvation--it is in HIm that I place my trust for atonement, redemption, and reconcilliation--I am and always have been open to his and the HOly Spirit's leading, but when so-called correction from another Christian comes with condemnation, I do not believe it is from the HOly Spirit. AS I said in an earlier post--this is not in keeping with scripture.

Because those who do not submit to the Word as it is written can expect to receive no more than what their own flesh can give them.

So now you will pass judgment? As many TE's have tried to explain of our beliefs, we do not dismiss the Bible or any part of it. WE do not believe that the creation accounts were EVER intended to be taken literally.

I don't know whether you are really going to understand what I've been trying to tell you, but I do so pray.

I understand ever word, I just don't agree with all of it

I wasn't raised in a Christian home but God has always loved me.

I was and He always loved me, too? More in common.

So much so that He made sure He belted the living daylights out of me (my flesh) and every day I thank Him for it.

peace

I have no idea what this is nor how to respond.



I pray God will continue to bless you

Tommy

 

[Didaskomenos]

I would check that out, if I were you. All vertebrates, as far as I know, have male and female genders, so it certainly goes back a long way. (Though how gender is determined can be fascinating. In some animals gender is determined by the temperature at which the eggs are incubated rather than by a chromosome as in mammals.)

But when you go back to protozoa, or even invertebrates, you often find genderless sexuality. I.e. individual organisms are not male or female, although they do engage in sexual intercourse. Depends on the species.

That's why I'm a linguist, not a biologist. Even if gender weren't established until our mammalian ancestors, I don't think that would allow homosexual men to claim (as if they would) that they were first, and then women came along, as Andy fretted.

 

[herev]

In other words.... you have no idea if you are correct.

Not exactly, I leave open the possibility that I am not correct about the creation of the world

You are saying tha the Spirit never witnesses us to the truth. That we are all guessing. That you guess what you want to believe, and, since nobody is really different than each other, that we all are guessing.

I said no such thing.

The lucky guessers will receive rewards at the resurrection, and the ones who were unlucky to guess wrong, will lose rewards.

I didn't say that either, but I'm sure you will continue to argue the point anyway.

At least you admit one thing openly. You, yourself, know nothing for certain.

didn't say that either. I know my redeemer lives--for certain. I know many things for certain. Go ahead, ask me what my Grandmother's name is--I know that one for certain.

And, you assume everyone else is like you.

Nope, wrong again--now in context, I do not think anyone has all the knowledge as intended by scripture, but correct me if I'm wrong. If you have all that knowlege, I'll change my thinking to "except Genez"

"He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. This is why I speak to them in parables:
"Though seeing, they do not see;
though hearing, they do not hear or understand." Matthew 13:11-13 niv

Evidently, you have no idea how that passage is possible.

Do you continue to find it beneficial to tell me what I think, believe, or understand?

And, of course, anyone who knows what it means (experiencially) you will simply claim as being arrogant for making such a claim.

Nope, wrong again.

The things you guess at, you try to turn into a parable, ironically. That the Genesis creation account can not be taken as being literal. In a sense , you see truth as a parable concerning creation. You can not see it.

Just call me blind, dimwitted, or whatever, I have no idea what that paragraph is supposed to mean, but let's give it a shot, anyway.
1. I don't guess, I study and interpret, just as you do.
2. Parable might be a good word for Genesis 1 and 2--I'll have to think on it. But I don't turn it into one, I just believe it is not literal--as it is written.
3. I can not see what?

The Truth will make you free (if you make the right guess). Herev6:6

The Truth will make you free (if you have the same understanding as Genez) Genez66:6) Notice I gave you a much longer book--just to be kind

The reason I sidetracked this thread is to get others to see how the pro TE's approach the Bible in general.

Ahh, so now we get it, you had a noble ulterior motive for your irrational outbursts--makes sense.

Some here believe we are to pray to Mary. Another, that women should be ordained pastors, etc.

....some believe neither of those, some believe both of those. All areas where people see and understand God's word differently. All areas that are not on topic with this thread, but if you feel better, that's all that's important, now isn't it?
But, just to point out--I personally know creationists who are Roman Catholic and believe in praying to Mary. I persoanlly know creationists in my own denomination that believe women can be ordained, so the point is moot

Its not just the Creation account that you folks have problems with.

Nope, it's not. Unlike you Gene, we TE's struggle constantly to learn and understand more and more and more about the Bible--and yes, sometimes there are problems that we have to work through. I am sorry that we don't have an infallible interpretation as you do, please bear with us--we're trying to be good, really we are.

And, I am glad I took a sidetrack that exposed you more for what you believe in general, rather than keeping it all confined to one narrow issue.

You can't have exposed what I believe in general. See all the ones above--wrong on nearly every single count--as usual when you try to read my mind. You don't know what I believe in general--you haven't taken the time to learn, you have simply made assumptions based on two areas of the Bible.

It shows a consistency of inconsistency with those who take unlawful liberties with the Word.

????unlawful liberties???? So interpretation is lawful if you agree with it, but unlawful if you don't?

Glad I digressed. The man behind the curtain has been exposed.

Grace in truth........ Gene

I would say a lot has been exposed by your irrational tirades, Genez.

 

[GenemZ]

didn't say that either. I know my redeemer lives--for certain. I know many things for certain. Go ahead, ask me what my Grandmother's name is--I know that one for certain.

I know for certain that you only wish to circumnavigate this issue bases upon your wits, not sound doctrine. You never get to the truth by playing clever games. The very fact that you allow for your wife to function as a pastor, which is plainly prohibited by the Bible, is a sure sign that if the fruit is mutant, that the tree bearing it can not be sound. After all, you will know them by their fruit..... and not by every clever excuse they can come up with to justify it. No one in their right mind would accept that teaching as being Scriptural. But, if one does, it proves they are capable of mental gymnastics. I will not join you in jumping through the loopholes. This mutation is just as inexcusable as the mental gymnastics of saying God did not create (bara) out from nothing man and woman in his image.

"So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them. " Genesis 1:27 niv

And, we came from an animal that evolved?

" The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Genesis 2:7 niv

Well!!!! That's all allegory?

God could have easily ended your confusion by having it recorded as thus...

"So God transformed the creature into a man in his own image, in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them. " Genesis 1:2nothing

The Hebrew concept existed at the time to be able do that!

" The earth, from which food comes,
is transformed below as by fire." Job 28:5 niv

" 'They transformed the beauty of His ornaments into pride, and they made the images of their abominations and their detestable things with it; therefore I will make it an abhorrent thing to them." Ezekiel 7:20 nasb

Those who feel free to leap out into areas where Scripture plainly forbids, want others to follow them, as to show others how clever and adept they are at talking their way out of things. It makes them feel a leap in self esteem to do so, and to confound those opposing them. Its an ego game that they refuse to see as such.

You keep going. You and your forum syncophants. You all know ways to blurr the reality of a situation and to talk your way out. That area of strength does not go well in God's economy. You have tried all the typical cliches in bending logic with me. But, the truth remains. I see right through you and your clique in this forum. All talkers. All try to bring others along by distorting their intentions, as they also distort the intent of God's Word. Why should you fear me? You do not fear God's Word. Should I matter more to you? If you can defy God's Word as easily as you have, who am I to think I will not be defied? My job is not to stop you, but only to expose you to others. For I am quite sure you are not going to change. For you cherish this strength of yours, to talk your way out of situations.

"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." Ephesians 5:11

Women pastors? You approve openly. God evolved man and woman from other animals? You approve openly. Pray to Mary? Synchophant approves openly. Fine bunch of clever talkers. That's all you are. But, not one of you stands on the integrity of God's Word. You see it as spiritual Play Dough, to be molded at whim when convenient. You will show where the Scripture does use allegory, to show it does. But you fail to admit, its obviously allegorical where you point to. How it is written does not make you guess and mislead into thinking otherwise. Your's is a sophmoric trick. But, it does not really convince your opponent, it only reveals how defiant you really are. That is what stuns them.

Oh, sure, you will all claim salvation. And, I pray that you are all saved. But, one can not see the hights of our salvation unless they crawl out of the foundation. Its the only place you can hide. The structure you have built upon your foundation (belief in Christ) is distorted and can not stand in the Lord's presence. For what stands will be based upon Truth...... not how clever you are.

Now... You keep your belief in evolution alive. Fine. Keep your belief in believing women should be pastors with authority over men. Keep it! Why should I care about you more than you do for yourself? I am only concerned at this point in exposing the lies you follow and take pleasure in defending. What you do with your life is up to you.

"He who gets wisdom loves his own soul;
he who cherishes understanding prospers."
Proverbs 19:8 niv

I have debated JW's on the Deity of Christ. Guess what? They have a whole litany of clever twists in Scripture to justify what they believe. They too, can be clever and defiant. But they do not love their own soul. I have debated Catholics over the issue Jesus told us never to call a man "Father." Guess what? You got it..... there was a whole litany of cleverly arranged passages and reasonings that would make one think that Jesus spoke those words in jest. Women as pastors? Litany of clever twists in logic, volume 2.

Have a nice day, sir. GeneZ

 

[herev]

I know for certain that you only wish to circumnavigate this issue bases upon your wits, not sound doctrine.

And which issue is that? You are against YEC, TE, Mary-worshipping, praying to Mary, women in the pulpit--you keep jumping around so much--it's hard to keep up. My doctrine is quite sound, thank you. It may not be the same as yours, but it is quite sound.

You never get to the truth by playing clever games.

Agreed, so why do you continue?

The very fact that you allow for your wife to function as a pastor, which is plainly prohibited by the Bible, is a sure sign that if the fruit is mutant, that the tree bearing it can not be sound.

, but--I don't allow my wife to be a pastor--she is called by God to do so. As to what is plain in the scriptures, your interpretations do not sway my study, knowledge, or beliefs. As to the fruit smear, have you witnessed the fruit of hatred to brothers in Christ. Have you witnessed the fruit of bearing false witness against your brothers and sisters in Christ, have you witnessed the fruit of childishness. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones--not in the Bible, but still good adivce, huh?

After all, you will know them by their fruit..... and not by every clever excuse they can come up with to justify it.

Agreed, you should see the beautiful ministries which have sprung to life under the pastoral leadership of my wife at her church--you should hear the stories of those who have come to know Jesus as their Lord and Savior--it is good to examine the fruit before we pass judgement, huh?

No one in their right mind would accept that teaching as being Scriptural.

It does not surprise me that you now insult me and the millions and millions of christians who disagree by saying we are not in our right mind--it fits with your M.O.

But, if one does, it proves they are capable of mental gymnastics.

That is always said as an insult, but it just doesn't ever sound like one. It may simply proove that they have studied, prayed, observed, thought, and listened for God's voice telling them through their own traditions and experiences in God's word.

I will not join you in jumping through the loopholes.

Whatever that means, Gene, I'm glad for you--I haven't invited you to join me for anything except good honest debate and discussion without insults

This mutation is just as inexcusable as the mental gymnastics of saying God did not create (bara) out from nothing man and woman in his image.

I've never said God didn't create out of nothing--I happen to believe He did. I just think he started with nothing a long time before Adam and Eve actually were around.

"So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them. " Genesis 1:27 niv

And, we came from an animal that evolved?

And you see a conflict there? I don't.

" The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being." Genesis 2:7 niv

Well!!!! That's all allegory?

The creation accounts are non-literal, yes--even this verse

God could have easily ended your confusion by having it recorded as thus...

He could have easily ended yours by explaining it in great detail, so? He could have created without leaving fossil records which indicate otherwise (even according to the way you understand Gap theory)--He could have done anything He wanted--that's not at issue. I do not limit God.

Those who feel free to leap out into areas where Scripture plainly forbids, want others to follow them, as to show others how clever and adept they are at talking their way out of things. I makes them feel a leap in self esteem to do so, and to confound those opposing them. Its an ego game that they refuse to see as such.

And where does Scripture forbid taking Genesis 1 and 2 as non-literal?
And I do not want anyone to follow me--I only defend myself from those who insult my beliefs or belittle my beliefs or insinuate that to believe in TE is to make one less of a Christian. I have no problem with you or anyone else holding their own creation beliefs based on careful study of scripture.
While I do not know why you are here, I can see I get no self-esteem from this place or these arguments--I find them stressful because as a Christian, I have to force myself to be nice to those who are accusing me of being a tool of the devil--it takes effort. When you refer to ego games and refusing to see something, I find myself speechless, wondering if you have a mirror?

You keep going. You and your forum syncophants.

Did you mean sycophant? I had to look it up, couldn't find "syncophants." Once again, do you have a way to step back and read your own posts? I truely believe that you do not intend on doing so, but they come off soooo arrogant, smug, and self-righteous. So let's see the definition of sycophant:
a servile self-seeking flatterer
source:http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=sycophants
I don't think I have flattered you, have others here--who are we flattering?
Could also mean:
slanderer, swindler
again, same source:
How many times have you slandered me in just this thread?

You all know ways to blurr the reality of a situation and to talk your way out. That area of strength does not go well in God's economy.

blurring reality, like changing topics to cause insult or harm to others, to divert the attention of others so they will not see that one is in fact arguing from a weak base?
I haven't done that.
No, it doesn't go well in God's economy--my goodness a point of agreement.

You have tried all the typical cliches in bending logic with me.

As a logical person, I find that disturbing, how have I tried to bend logic?

But, the truth remains.

Agreement again. The truth will always be.

I see right through you and your clique in this forum.

as you have clearly demonstrated over and over and over again, you cannot see me clearly at all. YOu've been wrong on nearly everything you have said about me.

All talkers.

And this would make us different from you exactly how?

All try to bring others along by distorting their intentions, as they also distort the intent of God's Word.

As I keep explaining, I haven't tried to convert anyone, you--on the other hand are looking for disciples. We TE's simply don't like being told that we are less Christian than YEC--and certainly less than one Gap theorist. I'm not sure what gives you license to decide that it is we that are distorting the intent of God's word. I've studied it too, Gene. Why is it such a difficult concept for you to realize we have both studied and each come to different conclusions?

Why should you fear me? You do not fear God's Word. Should I matter more to you? If you can defy God's Word as easily as you have, who am I to think I will not be defied?

First of all, I have a healthy biblical fear of God. Am I supposed to fear the scriptures?
Secondly, if I did have a "fear of God's word" would that mean you expect me to have a fear of you in the same manner? That's awfully presumptuous, isn't it?
I have not defied God's word in my TE thinking, Your interpretation I do not defy, your judgment on me for my TE thinking--now that, I defy.

My job is not to stop you, but only to expose you to others.

Agreed you have no job in relation to my beliefs, but if you want to "expose" me to others, you should do your homework. YOu should find out what I believe before making such claims. Otherwise, you are bearing false witness against me. Now I know certainly you take the 10 commandments literally, don't you?

For I am quite sure you are not going to change.

Actually that is not necessarily true. I am alwasy open to new ideas and thoghts on my beleifs. I do not discount YEC belief, OEC belief, or even Gap theory. I discount YOU because your posts indicate someone who has not the capability to teach in a mature manner which would call into question the wisdom required for rightly dividing the word, which is require for me to place myself as a student under your oversight for learning new ideas.

For you cherish this strength of yours, to talk your way out of situations.

Again, check the mirror. I have no desire to talk my way out of anything. Are you suggesting that there is need to here? Have you put me on trail that I need to "talk my way out of something."

"Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them." Ephesians 5:11

"Do not speak to a fool,
for he will scorn the wisdom of your words." Proverbs 23:9
we can both throw scripture at each other with bolded words, does it help? I doubt it

Women pastors? You approve openly.

, but yes, I do.

God evolved man and woman from other animals? You approve openly.

I have this as a belief--again, I'm open to correction.

Pray to Mary? Synchophant approves openly.

Who is this synchophant?

Fine bunch of clever talkers. That's all you are.

And again, this makes us different from you how?

But, not one of you stands on the integrity of God's Word. You see it as spiritual Play Dough, to be molded at whim when convenient.

Now here is where you bear false witness again. It's simply not so. Why would you continue to say things we have told you are not so?

You will show where the Scripture does use allegory, to show it does. But you fail to admit, its obviously allegorical where you point to.

No, we haven't once failed to admit it is obviously allegorical in Psalms--not once. And yet to TE's it is obviously allegorical in Genesis 1 and 2 as well.

It does not make you guess and mislead into thinking otherwise.

OK, nor do I want to mislead others or guess, thank you, so?

Its a sophmoric trick. It does not really convince your opponent, it only reveals how defiant you really are.

again, I wish you had access to a really good mirror.

Oh, sure, you will all claim salvation.

Just as you do, only I don't constantly question yours as you do mine!!!

And, I pray that you are all saved.

Thanks, but for one who treats others the way you do, I actually would not have believed that, but I'll take your word on it

But

knew there had to be one.

one can not see the hights of our salvation unless they crawl out of the foundation. Its the only place you can hide. The structure you have built upon your foundation (belief in Christ) is distorted and can not stand in the Lord's presence.

You are certainly free to hold onto your beliefs, I care not. Bold statements again when you don't know me. I do know the Lord, and I have felt his presence since the moment I was saved--guess you were wrong about this one, too, huh? It has stood in His presence for a long, long time

Now... You keep your belief in evolution alive. Fine. Keep your belief in believing women should be pastors with authority over men. Keep it!

Thanks, I've waited my whole life for you to come along and give me permission. Now I can die happy.

Why should I care about you more than you do for yourself?

Because you are a Christian?

I am only concerned at this point in exposing the lies you follow and take pleasure in defending. What you do with your life is up to you.

Lies is a strong word, gene--careful judging lest you be judged accordingly. We have different intepretations than you--that does not make us evil. We all agree that Jesus is Lord and that the only way to the father is through the son.

"He who gets wisdom loves his own soul;
he who cherishes understanding prospers."
Proverbs 19:8 niv

Again, what makes this anymore directed at me than you?
or this:
Proverbs 29:20
Do you see a man who speaks in haste?
There is more hope for a fool than for him.

I have debated JW's on the Deity of Christ. Guess what? They have a whole litany of clever twists in Scripture to justify what they believe. They too, can be clever and defiant.

OK, you also can be clever and defiant--your point?

But they do not love their own soul.

and?

I have debated Catholics over the issue Jesus told us never to call a man "Father." Guess what? You got it..... there was a whole litany of cleverly arranged passages and reasonings that would make one think that Jesus spoke those words in jest. Women as pastors? Litany of clever twists in logic, volume 2.

And yet, Gene, you fail to see that others feel the same way about how you use the scriptures and interpret them to lend credibility to your beliefs. Yet you can't see that. Why? Because you think your interpretations are the only ones that God approves of. I am just not that self-centered to tell you that your belief in Gap theory or that women should NOT be pastors is any less valuable than my beliefs that are in contradiction to yours.

Have a nice day, sir. GeneZ

you too

 

[Vance]

Wow, Herev, you have the patience of a saint.

 

[herev]

Wow, Herev, you have the patience of a saint.

Please friend--don't call me a saint, he'll be all over you for praying to me or something

Ah, I'm secrectly beating the keyboard--being told I am not Christian enough for such a simple thing as creationism vs. theistic evolution burns my bottom like a 3 foot high flame.
But, I'm trying to be more patient and treat him with respect--it'll get there, but it can be tough at times.
Thanks

edited to add:
I have learned nothing from Gene's words or theories, but I have learned a great deal by having to deal with his attitude.

 

[Vance]

ooooh, I just realized, I was being a syncophant! :0)

 

[Karl - Liberal Backslider]

There really seem to be some venemous reptiles spitting poison on these boards tonight, don't there? Is it something to do with the phase of the moon?

 

[herev]

ooooh, I just realized, I was being a syncophant! :0)

so you're the one he's talking about.

 

[herev]

There really seem to be some venemous reptiles spitting poison on these boards tonight, don't there? Is it something to do with the phase of the moon?

Na, that would probably be a pagan view to say that--and you might get shot at for saying so around here.
It's just when you lay down with dogs, you're going to get up with fleas--as my grandaddy used to say!

 

[herev]

silence is golden and speaks much

edit to add:
by the way, I just re-read this short post, and realized it could be taken more than one way. What I intended to say was that it seems as though people are losing interest in this thread. Thought I'd better add that before I get flamed. It wasn't intended at any one person.
Sorry for any confusion.
tommy