Coming out of the theistic evolution closet

[thekawasakikid]

I wouldn't say I moved in charismatic or evangelical circles but I guess we are heavily influenced by the US. Some of that is good and some of it isn't No offence, Americans - I married one.

Nonetheless, I keep my mouth shut in our class. I made a couple of comments but I am largely drowned out, in the ostrich 'head-in-the-sand' manner. I've even thought of not turning up to the class, but I'm not sure that's the right thing to do either.

IMO, it's an example of the 'do not cause your weaker brother to stumble'. I can handle what I believe. If it causes someone else to doubt or get upset, is it worth shouting about it, or is it better just to keep quiet?

 

[Elbereth]

Thanks everyone for giving me plenty to think about. I guess at this point, I'll mostly keep my mouth shut about this particular topic. Kawasakikid, my church did a class based on a book called Being a Contagious Christian, and many of the proofs that God exists were about design and order in the universe and in life. I do believe that God is ultimately responsible, but I can't honestly argue that life proves that there must be a God because I also accept naturalistic processes.

GodSaves, thanks for your kind words. You seem to be a good example of YECs and TEs agreeing to disagree on certain points but getting along anyway.

 

[OneLastBreath]

I agree. GodSaves, I wish there were more YECs like you. Basically, I call myself an OEC- I suppose I really still have to decide about evolution- not because I really care either way (the question of how God created is trivial, the fact that God created is what's really important), but because I got so sick of watching YECs calling more liberal Christians Bible-compromising heretics. Elbereth, I've oft found myself in a situation similar to yours. I live in an extremely fundamentalist environment. My grandparents, as well as 90% of my church, are Dutch...in case you didn't know, Dutch people tend to be very conservative and extremely stubborn. Fortunately, it helps to not be alone, and I frequently have talks with my physics teacher. I suppose my best advice would be find someone else who has similar views as you on creation and evolution, if you haven't already, and make sure you talk to them on a regular basis. Whenever goes about telling me off for "compromising the Bible", the agree to disagree statement seems to be best. If they say your wrong, you can't agree to disagree, than something along the lines of the following works well:
Do you believe in God as the Creator? Yes? Good, so do I. Do you believe Jesus Christ died for our redemption and was raised after three days? Yes? Good, so do I. Do you believe the Holy Spirit lives in us, and empowers us as we fulfill our mission on earth? Yes? [I'm just going through the creeds here so I would hope that they say yes to these] Good, so do I. We both believe the same about what really counts. What we disagree on is a trivial detail! We both agree that God created the Universe. Is the mechanism he used to carry this out really that important? So, one final question: do you believe that if I'm wrong about this, as your doctrine says, that I've forfeit my salvation and am destined for hell?
If they say yes to that, it's a whole other issue.

 

[Bushido216]

Thanks everyone for giving me plenty to think about. I guess at this point, I'll mostly keep my mouth shut about this particular topic. Kawasakikid, my church did a class based on a book called Being a Contagious Christian, and many of the proofs that God exists were about design and order in the universe and in life. I do believe that God is ultimately responsible, but I can't honestly argue that life proves that there must be a God because I also accept naturalistic processes.

GodSaves, thanks for your kind words. You seem to be a good example of YECs and TEs agreeing to disagree on certain points but getting along anyway.

If you do decide to say anything, I'd have your facts down. The last thing you want is to give whomever you're telling room to beat you down with "C14 dating is unreliable" and "there aren't any transitionals".

 

[Didaskomenos]

A Elbereth Gilthoniel!

I am in the same boat, but I've been here awhile. It's hard, because I grew up watching Kent Hovind and reading Duane Gish and the like, to my parents' delight. I will never tell my mom, though my actually open-minded dad might find out some day. I can safely say that only one flesh-and-blood soul I know is a non-YEC, a friend and fellow sojourner from college. But I never see him. This board (and my ambivalent wife) are my only outlets for discussion.

I think a key, like Bushido just said, is to only talk about (and believe in) what you know. I personally don't know much about science, and so I'd rather take the leading scientific theory held by credible scientists, but not argue about it with anyone else. I talk about what I know about. With my linguistic and ancient literature background, I argue for non-YEC in a different way. For instance, the one way I've toyed with telling my brother-in-law is to utilize his most recent flash of understanding: the Scriptures had an original audience, and what they say doesn't necessarily mean what modern readers initially think. I've considered telling him that I carry through that philosophy all the way through the Bible, insisting that the literary genre and Sitz im Leben ("situation in life") determine my translation; in Genesis 1-11, the mythological literary genre is clear to me. But that's still too inflammatory, so I guess I'll sit on it awhile longer.

 

[Bushido216]

It may, in the end, be better to just stay in the closet. It's not that big of a deal, nor will it impact your day-to-day life (like if you were coming out of the other closet).

 

[Card42]

nor will it impact your day-to-day life (like if you were coming out of the other closet).

huh
u mean
like the broom closet?
i don't get it

 

[Bushido216]

I'll do you a huge favour and let you figure this one out yourself.

 

[Card42]

i think bushido
makes a good point
while u shouldn't lie
about ur position
if its a cause of stress
no need to share

 

[Bushido216]

My God. I never believed that someone around here would agree with me.

 

[artybloke]

i think bushido
makes a good point
while u shouldn't lie
about ur position
if its a cause of stress
no need to share

Hmmmm.... what was it Jesus said about hiding your light under a bushel? I think this is a matter of truth verses lies, and the lies of creationism should be exposed for what they are.

It sounds like some of you are living in a kind of Soviet Union of the mind: don't speak out of turn or we'll send you to the Gulag. Nil carbarundum illegitimi - where there is untruth we should be sowing truth.

But I know it's not easy - look what happened to Solzhenitsen.

 

[Bushido216]

Jesus meant not to hide yourself and keep your gifts from the world. If Elbereth's revealation will only cause her strife, then why bother telling everyone she's a Theistic Evolutionist?

 

[OneLastBreath]

I wouldn't call keeping your views of creation and evolution a secret "hiding your bushel"...we're not talking about denying the fact that God created the universe, just how he did it which isn't exactly of life or death importance (hence the agree to disagree posts in this thread). I see no reason why not discussing your ideas about origins would compromise your ability to be a shining light for Christ.

 

[thekawasakikid]

I see no reason why not discussing your ideas about origins would compromise your ability to be a shining light for Christ.

I find that in the darkness of the world, discussing my ideas on origins doesn't compromise my ability to be a shining light for Christ. On the contrary, non-believers often are led to percieve that evolution and faith in God are impossible bed-fellows and to deconstruct that myth does make them stop and think.

The closet I think Elbereth refers to is the one which we find ourselves in when immersed in a YEC culture - or at least when the congregation we belong to is militantly literal creationist.

 

[seebs]

I think it's very disturbing whenever I hear Christians trying to decide whether or not they dare share something with other Christians. Strikes me as a sign that something's gone wrong.

 

[fragmentsofdreams]

I think it's very disturbing whenever I hear Christians trying to decide whether or not they dare share something with other Christians. Strikes me as a sign that something's gone wrong.

You're right. James and Galatians both come to mind.

 

[Elbereth]

Hmmmm.... what was it Jesus said about hiding your light under a bushel? I think this is a matter of truth verses lies, and the lies of creationism should be exposed for what they are.

I admit that I cringe when people discuss attacking evolution as a way of evangelizing. However, most people don't need to understand evolution, just like they don't need to understand relativity. I'm not that interested in converting people, just being accepted. I dislike hiding things from people, and I have a tendency to jump on things I know aren't true (like the time this guest Sunday school teacher told us that NASA has proof the sun stood still--I expressed disbelief, and she brought in a study Bible that told the story. I shut up after that because I didn't think it worth arguing, but it was hard!)

Oh, and Bushido--I looked around on TalkOrigins while I was trying to decide whether to accept evolution, and it seems to be a pretty thorough source.

I find that in the darkness of the world, discussing my ideas on origins doesn't compromise my ability to be a shining light for Christ. On the contrary, non-believers often are led to percieve that evolution and faith in God are impossible bed-fellows and to deconstruct that myth does make them stop and think.

The closet I think Elbereth refers to is the one which we find ourselves in when immersed in a YEC culture - or at least when the congregation we belong to is militantly literal creationist.

Exactly. I don't have a problem discussing the theistic aspect with people of other faiths. My difficulty is that many of the Christians I know have issues with the evolution aspect. I sometimes think that my role in life isn't to evangelize in the usual sense of the word, but to show people that not every Christian is like the ones they see proclaiming fire and brimstone on the library lawn.

Of course, remaining silent just it makes it more difficult for the other Christians who also accept evolution and would rather not hide it from their church. Perhaps the best thing to do is wait until the culture here changes on its own.

 

[seebs]

YEC beliefs can be a stumbling block that could prevent someone from coming to the faith. If you can remove that block, you are helping them, potentially greatly.

 

[Elbereth]

Yes, I agree completely. But that doesn't solve the problem of explaining this to people I care about who would disapprove of my ideas. It's sad, but my non-
Christian friends know a lot more about my actual beliefs on many things than my Christian friends, my church, and my family. It's not that I'd be disowned, but there would be plenty of shock and dismay. And perhaps unpleasant insinuations about my faith, which I do not need right now.

 

[OneLastBreath]

I would advise being careful about calling another group of people within Christianity a stumbling block. Even if I disagree with the principles of YECs, I still respect them as brothers and sisters in Christ. Calling them a stumbling block only allows the true stumbling block to gain power: The Devil. For he loves to see discord and dividance among the body of Christ. Of course, Elbereth, with the situation you've described yourself to be in, I imagine people in you're community call groups like us much worse than a stumbling block, but still. It's important to not lose sight of the fact that while we disagree on some details, we still agree on the important stuff. That's a good thing to point out should you decide the reveal your views to them. At risk of being repetitive, I'll reiterate part of my first post in this thread:

Whenever goes about telling me off for "compromising the Bible", the agree to disagree statement seems to be best. If they say your wrong, you can't agree to disagree, than something along the lines of the following works well:
Do you believe in God as the Creator? Yes? Good, so do I. Do you believe Jesus Christ died for our redemption and was raised after three days? Yes? Good, so do I. Do you believe the Holy Spirit lives in us, and empowers us as we fulfill our mission on earth? Yes? [I'm just going through the creeds here so I would hope that they say yes to these] Good, so do I. We both believe the same about what really counts. What we disagree on is a trivial detail! We both agree that God created the Universe. Is the mechanism he used to carry this out really that important? So, one final question: do you believe that if I'm wrong about this, as your doctrine says, that I've forfeit my salvation and am destined for hell?
If they say yes to that, it's a whole other issue.