Comic Book Religion: Which is your favorite?

[TerranceL]

Liefeld...... good lord that man needs someone to sit down with him and have a talk about human proportions.

Comics are renown for having unrealistic representations of what people look like, Liefeld is so bad other comic book artists look at his work and wonder whats wrong with him.

The 90's was a dark time.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Liefeld...... good lord that man needs someone to sit down with him and have a talk about human proportions.

Comics are renown for having unrealistic representations of what people look like, Liefeld is so bad other comic book artists look at his work and wonder whats wrong with him.

The 90's was a dark time.

Nonetheless, of course, the hypocrisy of the matter is that the 90s as well as current times ALWAYS had people having unrealistic representations of how others appear. That was a part of the world of comics and Liefeld was no exception (even though many did appreciate him). One of my favorites, known as Joe Madureia, is well-known for this even to this day when it came to things such as X-Men (like the Age of Apocalypse series) - even though his concepts (including religious backgrounds/perspectives) are simply brilliant. Joe Madureira's "Battle Chasers" is one of the best examples of this reality, more shared here:

Magic and technology don't have to be shown as as competing forces (or at least independent spheres existing side by side) - and I appreciate shows displaying things in the sense of magic-as-science,


The rationalistic and reductionist view of spirituality seems to be more prevalent in the West than in an Eastern worldview of science/religion - such as from China or Japan and what's often found in differing animes were the supernatural, technological and natural were all present.

In the sci-fi/fantasy/horror genres, science will be combined with magic (like the force in Star Wars), with magic sometimes shown to be superior.

The mix of science and magic seems to be on the rise nowadays. They had a comic series on that here in the West, entitled "Battle Chasers"...and it did some of the same, even though the artwork/concept was amazing.

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It was like being in the Middle Ages and seeing the magical side contrasted with science (science itself being deemed a type of magic/sorcery). But the genre of stories taking place in an arcanepunk setting is very similar to what we see today. Every item that we see in the series (including the flying ships and the mechanic war-golems) are magic-driven.

On the same token, there was plenty in there to show that there were differing spheres as well. The Skyhold prison is a good example as there were many prisoners in it that were restricted by magical forces. Specifically, Skyhold is a "prison without walls". While the normal human occupants are held in standard cells, the most powerful villians are held in check by the willpower of the Mentu, a high order of monks with powerful psionic abilities.

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It is here that Ryon del Soya was kept before being freed by Red Monika. However, during their escape, a mana containment center was breached, causing an explosion that disrupted the concentration of the Mentu allowing many powerful criminals to escape - one of them being a powerful/evil Djinn who could only be restrained by monks acting as wardens concerntrating in Eastern style and using their meditation techniques to restrain him.

One of the villians who escaped was Brass Demur - a very psychotic and corrupt monk who tried to defeat Garrison by wearing certain markings over his body which increased his powers/made him invincilble to physical harm​

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And to see how they flawlessly merged things together with technology proving a serious challenge to the spiritual or supernatural was a trip...

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[Gxg (G²)]

Liefeld...... good lord that man needs someone to sit down with him and have a talk about human proportions.

Comics are renown for having unrealistic representations of what people look like,

My cousin and I were having an interesting dialogue on that very issue the other day - as it concerns how often it was the case in comic mythology that characters like women were drawn with armor that realistically would not have protected them - and yet their battle armor always kept them safe. They did the same thing with the men - but it was always interesting to see how they broke it down (and for the comic, you can go here and Female Armor Explained! Womb Power Comic - hilarious).

Wonder Woman has often been criticized for this very reason....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't know if this *directly* relates to the topic, but most of my favorite comic-book characters have been "gods," demi-gods, or representatives of the "gods" -- In the Marvel Comics Universe, Thor

and the other Asgardians, and Hercules

and the other Olympians. In the DC Universe, Orion and the other "gods" of New Genesis

; Captain Marvel

, as a representative of Olympus (a really, really muddled one, with powers from gods, titans, demi-gods... and SOLOMON???); Wonder Woman, also of Olympus (I like the animated Young Justice version best)

; and the very short-lived 1960s comic-book version of Captain Action

.
.

Wonder-Woman has always been quite interesting when seeing her religious background. ...as it concerns the Amazon tribes worshipping their gods and Wonder Woman giving thanks to them. For a good resource detailing the ways Wonder Woman's religion shows up:

The religion of Wonder Woman, Princess Diana​

As they said best:

Since this influential comic book super hero character was first created by polygamist feminist psychologist William Moulton Marston in 1941, Wonder Woman's origins and continuing storylines have been tied intricately to Greco-Roman mythology. The ancient Greek and Roman pantheon consisting of Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Hades, Athena, etc. have always been rendered as explicitly real in Wonder Woman's universe. This pantheon is also known as the Olympians, or the gods of Olympus, named after Mount Olympus, the mountain in Greece which was until recently their home.

The Amazon civilization into which Wonder Woman was born (or sculpted, technically) was created by these Greek gods, and Wonder Woman's powers derive from them. The Amazons of lived on the island of Themyscira, which was, until recently in DC Comics continuity, located in the Atlantic Ocean.

Wonder Woman could be said to be a "pagan" in the word's contemporary religious sense, although this does not appear to be a word she regularly applies to herself. Religious ritual and worship of the Greek gods is explicitly a part of the Amazon culture where Princess Diana was raised. While in her native Themyscira, Diana daily went to the Olympian temple and gave thanks before statues of the Olympian gods. She has also met these gods in person, and sometimes battled the less benevolent among them (such as Ares, the god of War, and Zeus's son, the demigod Heracles). Given Diana's firsthand experience with the Olympian gods, it would make little sense for her to not believe in these Olympian gods. One could conclude that Diana has little choice but to be a Greco-Roman classical religionist. Whatever the degree to which Diana has free will in the matter, she has enthusiastically and consciously embraced her role not only as a heroine, but also as the Themysciran ambassador to the world and as the Olympian gods' representative to mortal humanity.

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Princess Diana (Wonder Woman) was killed once by the demon Neron and the evil Dr. Doris Zeul. From: Beatty, page 31:
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While the JLA [Justice Leage of America] and the rest of Diana's extended family were numb with grief, Hippolyta [Diana's mother] refused to lose faith in miracles. The woman who had once prayed toher gods to breathe life into a clay doll beseeched the godess Hera to restore Diana. And with a flash of golden fire, Wonder Woman was reborn!
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For Hera, the simplest way to resurrect Diana was to turn her into a goddess. Diana became the Goddess of Truth and took her rightful place on Mount Olympus. For a time, Hippolyta assumed the mantle of Wonder Woman. Soon, however, Diana came to feel that her true place was on Earth. Without regret, she returned to the mortal plane so that the one true Wonder Woman might continue her quest for peace.

ABOVE: Hippolyta prays to Hera for the life of Diana (Wonder Woman).​

..........When the Crisis on Infinite Earths cross-over event shook up the DC Universe in 1985, it was established that Wonder Woman had never previously been introduced to the world at large before that time. Yet the legend of Wonder Woman was not entirely purged from DC history. Although Princess Diana's introduction to "Man's World" was pushed forward in time to become a contemporary event, it was retroactively established that Wonder Woman had indeed fought alongside the Justice Society of America during World War II - it was simply a different Wonder Woman. Current official DC history has established that Queen Hippolyta herself ventured away from Paradise Island as the superheroine named Wonder Woman. Princess Diana later took up the mantle of Wonder Woman, basing her costume on the one worn in previous decades by her mother.

More was said besides that in the link discussing Wonder Woman's religion...as there were other superheros who were also followers of the Greek gods in both Marvel and D.C--and for more one can go here to Famous Greco-Roman classical religionists in Comics

With the pumping fists/saying "go Hera", I have seen her frequently in the comic book world reference Hera in terms of prayer for others...or exclamation of certain things when she invokes the name of her gods by saying "Hera help him" or "Great Hera" or seeks to praise them actively:

Justice League Unlimited - 4x05 - The Balance (clip)

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Additionally, in a recent version of the comic book series called "Amazons Attack" (as seen here , here , and here), the Amazons went to war with mankind--in the name of their gods. When a missile was coming to one area/endangering others, WonderWoman unhooked her lasso and prayed to Athena to guide the missile somewhere safe, away from the island, but she has guided it towards the island. Wonder Woman was using all her might to stop it, but was unsuccessful. She reached behind the missile to break its cords but they regenerated like curling snakes.

She then cried out and questions why Athena was doing such a thing to her. Wonder Woman found that she had no other choice but to put herself between the island and the missile. An explosion happened, but Wonder Woman finds that she is still alive, and the island is still there. It was Athena in her physical form that stopped the missile. Wonder Woman apologised for being angry towards her and thanks Athena for stopping the missile. Athena asked why Wonder Woman was so angry towards the Gods. Wonder Woman replied that she was angry because she wondered why the Gods didn't stop the Amazons from attack Washington DC. She added that Athena could have easily stopped it all from happening with her hand, just like she stopped the missile with her hand.

But Athena replied, "... but you seem to have forgotten, or perhaps chosen to ignore... that I am also the Goddess of War... and the Goddess of Strategy..."

She wraps her hand around Wonder Woman, who is so small compared to Athena and says, "... and it is for me and me alone to say how and when and why I wave my 'mighty hand'!"

Seeing the religion of Wonder Woman and the ways her "gods" frequently interact with her/give the impression that they're to be worshipped is hard to get past,

 

[Gxg (G²)]

So... the Marvel Universe has a whole bunch of interesting things in it, about it, concerning it. one of which is the Infinity Gems. for most of the their existence they are understood by those in the universe to be sources of immense power specific to particular aspects of the universe; time, mind, soul, reality etc.

as it turns out, these gems are actually pieces of the primordial being that existed eternally alone and, being unable to endure the loneliness, killed itself creating the existing universe and the Infinity gems which are the distilled aspects of the primordial being.

that's a fair approximation of normative Hindu thought regarding Mahabrahma and how this universe came into being. i'm not sure that it's my favorite or anything however it plays a hugely important role in the overall world of comics and thus should be mentioned in this sort of thread, imo.

Marvel seems to parallel D.C in the sense that D.C doesn't seem to echo the concept of having a primordial being who became impersonal.

Of course, as it concerns parallel worlds, they also brought things together by noting that there were TWO primordial beings - at one point even bringing D.C and MARVEL together by having these beings meet each other again and fight....only to unite together and become one.

Crossover events like this were rare and they often did not happen ever again, of course....but it was interesting to see their take on religion from the perspective of God. And D.C has been very explict on the matter in so many ways.

And as said best elsewhere:

The religious cosmology of the DC Universe is complex with many pantheons of deities co-existing alongside each other. It involves elements from multiple religions, mythologies, and modern created concepts such as the Endless. It is not always clear how the Abrahamic God fits in to this — for example, one particular Wonder Woman storyline by Eric Luke featured the Greek Titans fighting Judeo-Christian angels and Hindu gods. According to writer Greg Rucka in an interview about his Final Crisis: Revelations miniseries, "The sort of unspoken rule in the DCU is that God sits above all others. And then below that you can have your New Gods and your Greek gods and whoever else you want."


DC's superhero comics have always drawn upon Judeo-Christian beliefs for plot elements — the first appearance of "The Voice" was in the 1940 origin of the Spectre — but they have traditionally used surrogate concepts and names rather than refer to the Judeo-Christian deity directly.

For references, one can go here or here at "Rucka Reveals Final Crisis: Revelations and the character of the Spectre ( cosmic entity and the physical embodiment of God's vengeance on Earth)

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Liefeld...... good lord that man needs someone to sit down with him and have a talk about human proportions.

Not to mention how adding lines to a face makes them look older. (Also, just how many teeth has this guy? And what's with all those veins on the neck?)

Or how adding lots and lots of pouches to an outfit looks patently ridiculous.

But seriously, what bugs me about Liefeld is not that he's bad at drawing. What REALLY annoys me is that he can't WRITE. Plotting? Characterization? Bah, just introduce a couple of "new" characters without any defining traits or backstory. That'll work.

Also, having heard the man speak, I can only conclude that his intelligence is severely limited and inversely proportional to his self-esteem. Which isn't much of a sin in and of itself, but nonetheless explains a lot - except for his inexplicable success in the 90s.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

A very excellent study on the issue of comic book religion (including Spawn):

Religion - A Comic Book Look - Issue 12 - YouTube

How writers inject topics like religion and polatics into comics - YouTube

Religion In Comics - The Discussion Ep. 8 - YouTube

Comic Book Superheroes Unmasked (Documentary) - YouTube

That said, was anyone here ever familiar with the religion/character of Spawn? Or Witchblade for that matter?

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[James Is Back]

I gotta admit I'm not a fan of comics anymore. Haven't since 96 and when DC and Marvel rebooted their whole universe well that just really stuck a fork into it.

And now they've IMHO become to PC. I miss when it was just superhero fantasy and now they have to be politically correct to fit the times now.

Where Hulk would just beat on the Thing. Where the X-Men battles villains like Magneto,etc but now comics to me are boring as heck.

The only comic book related things that I'm interested in are the movies and Marvels Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.

No offense to those who still read them but that's the way I feel now about them.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

I gotta admit I'm not a fan of comics anymore. Haven't since 96 and when DC and Marvel rebooted their whole universe well that just really stuck a fork into it.

Unnecessary (and often detrimental) reboots have become a staple of the genre, unfortunately.
I can see why writers would wish to get rid of the often convoluted twists and turns that amass over the course of many years, and also why publishers might feel that such a clean slate might make the medium more accessible to new readers. Yet the results are so often reprehensible that they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Case in point:

Amanda Waller turned from this

into this

Because clearly, there aren't enough conventionally attractive, model-type women in superhero comics.

Or take Barbara Gordon, who was a truly exceptional character by virtue of being paraplegic:

But nah, we need another generic female superhero:

Marvel handles this kind of thing MUCH better. Their course in recent years (occasional missteps notwithstanding) has taken them in the right direction.

Where Hulk would just beat on the Thing. Where the X-Men battles villains like Magneto,etc but now comics to me are boring as heck.

Seriously?
There's nothing more boring than watching characters beat each other up without any further motivation for pages on end. Complex character development and issues that cannot be solved by "Clobbering Time" is WAY more interesting than that.

 

[TerranceL]

Unnecessary (and often detrimental) reboots have become a staple of the genre, unfortunately.
I can see why writers would wish to get rid of the often convoluted twists and turns that amass over the course of many years, and also why publishers might feel that such a clean slate might make the medium more accessible to new readers. Yet the results are so often reprehensible that they're shooting themselves in the foot.

Case in point:

Amanda Waller turned from this

into this

Because clearly, there aren't enough conventionally attractive, model-type women in superhero comics.

See this confused the heck out of me....

I'm not nearly as fond of DC as I am of Marvel but I have been watching "The Arrow" so when Waller was introduced I did what I have done with most new characters, I googled her, then gawked at just how off her character looked from the comic.

 

[James Is Back]

Seriously?
There's nothing more boring than watching characters beat each other up without any further motivation for pages on end. Complex character development and issues that cannot be solved by "Clobbering Time" is WAY more interesting than that.

Well maybe it's because I come from old school and that is what I grew up with. Not this modern stuff we have now in comics.

 

[James Is Back]

Well I'm glad we are out of that page. It was very hard to read when the pages are stretched like that. For future reference people if you are going to post video links from youtube make sure you remove the s from https so the page won't stretch. Thank you

 

[gord44]

Yeah. This thread is a nightmare to read on my tablet.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

See this confused the heck out of me....

I'm not nearly as fond of DC as I am of Marvel but I have been watching "The Arrow" so when Waller was introduced I did what I have done with most new characters, I googled her, then gawked at just how off her character looked from the comic.

Well, not in relation to her post-reboot looks. She's been a skinny supermodel for a couple of years at this point.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Oh, and did I mention Starfire yet?

This is her prior to the reboot: one of the Teen Titans, a complex character with a rich history.

This is her after the "New 52"-reboot.

And this is her new "costume":

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well I'm glad we are out of that page. It was very hard to read when the pages are stretched like that. For future reference people if you are going to post video links from youtube make sure you remove the s from https so the page won't stretch. Thank you

Pages stretch with or without - and that's something others noted before.

It's not that difficult to address, as all one has to do is change the size of the screen.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Well maybe it's because I come from old school and that is what I grew up with. Not this modern stuff we have now in comics.

Don't know what kind of old school you may be talking about - as the older comics were ALWAYS based on complex story lines and never a simple matter of fighting. To miss that is to not understand the basis for the comic.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Or take Barbara Gordon, who was a truly exceptional character by virtue of being paraplegic:

But nah, we need another generic female superhero:

Marvel handles this kind of thing MUCH better. Their course in recent years (occasional missteps notwithstanding) has taken them in the right direction.

Can't stand what they did to Batgirl. However, I do like what they did do with the Batman Reboot - especially as it concerns the Court of the Owls story line (with the religious aspect coming into view in light of how the Owls are fascinating as an ancient conspiracy that has controlled Gotham City for centuries - being a violent cabal of some of Gotham City's oldest and wealthiest families who use murder and money to wield political influence throughout history and have their bases of operation hidden in some of the city's oldest structures, existing beneath everyone's notice). That was very amazing to consider - and I did appreciate their reboot of Jason Todd (Robin) into Red Hood:

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[Jane_the_Bane]

Oh, not everything about the "New 52" is bad.
The "Bat-family" seems to do rather well, with a few notable exceptions.

I'm not sure if I'm altogether happy about the resurrection of Jason Todd: on the one hand, there's lots of complex character development to be had here, and his anti-hero status promises lots of interesting story arcs.

However, I feel that death in superhero comics is WAY too transitory to begin with, and Jason Todd had been a very welcome and notable exception to that phenomenon for nearly two decades.

Character deaths ought to MATTER, and not merely be a momentary plot device feigning tragedy. Both Todd and Bucky (the other most notable exception) have been resurrected at this point, and I believe even Peter Parker's Uncle Ben re-appeared at this point (although he hailed from a parallel universe, if memory serves).

Now, I can understand why people would not want popular characters to disappear permanently, and I certainly do not expect main protagonists to remain dead.

But sometimes, deaths ought to MATTER, and a few notable exceptions would dispell some of the cynicism many people feel in relation to superhero demises at this point.

The worst offender in this regard, IMO, was the aftermath of the Dark Phoenix saga and the retcon of Jean Grey, basically annihilating everything that happened by establishing that the Dark Phoenix was essentially an alien doppelganger, while the REAL Jean slept in a cocoon under the sea.

(By the way, the Phoenix (Force) might easily qualify as a comic book deity, no?)

 

[TerranceL]

The only stuff I read in DC now is some of the Batman books, Injustice and Constantine... I'm thinking of canceling Constantine though... it's just nowhere near as good as Hellblazer was.