Colorado Defies Supreme Court Ruling, Punishing Christian Baker Jack Phillips Over Transgender Cake

[FireDragon76]

Of course it is. For it is helping him to commit that sin. And Christians must not support sinful activities in any way (Ephesians 5:11).

That verse speaks of fellowship, not service and obedience to the law.

The very heart of the problem is that homosexuals and their supporters mistakenly claim, for example, that a Christian calligrapher not writing invitations to a gay wedding shows "hatred" and "discrimination" against gays themselves, in their persons,

Just because a person might do that in God's name doesn't change what the act objectively means- disapproval of a person.

when in fact what is being discriminated against is not any person (i.e. the calligrapher could write birthday-party invitations for a gay person), but is against the practice of homosexuality itself, which would be promoted by supporting a gay wedding.

People are psychologically complicated and its not necessarily realistic to separate out who someone is, from what someone does.

 

[parousia70]

Not unless you are asking the hardware store guy to personally decorate your screw to celebrate your infidelity. Then you have crossed the line into demanding he participate in an artistic creation for your event that violates his conscience. Just buying any kind of screw (or cake) is just another purchase.

Yet the Pink and Blue Cake was, admittedly, a regular cake option offered by the baker... except to trans people who open their mouths about what pink and blue means to them.

 

[creslaw]

People are psychologically complicated and its not necessarily realistic to separate out who someone is, from what someone does.

I wonder if you are a parent. It is very important to separate what the child does from what the child is. ("It is bad to hit your sister" not "you are bad for hitting your sister")

Christians who discriminate against ungodly behaviour should not condemn the person.

Love the sinner, hate the sin is based on Jude 1:23 - "Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, but do so with great caution, hating the sins that contaminate their lives." (NLT)

 

[creslaw]

Of course it is. For it is helping him to commit that sin. And Christians must not support sinful activities in any way (Ephesians 5:11).

You are right. When considering Ephesians 5:11 it is helpful to look at other translations which make it clear that Paul was talking about being involved in ungodly activities.

(NIV) Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
(NASB) Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
(RSV) Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

 

[FireDragon76]

I wonder if you are a parent. It is very important to separate what the child does from what the child is. ("It is bad to hit your sister" not "you are bad for hitting your sister")

Or you could just say "he or she is otherwise a good person but factor X made them act in a way that was inconsiderate or hurtful".

Christians who discriminate against ungodly behaviour should not condemn the person.

Except of course to condemn them to a life on earth of being treated as a second-class citizen whose relationships do not deserve the same fundamental respect as others.

 

[FireDragon76]

You are right. When considering Ephesians 5:11 it is helpful to look at other translations which make it clear that Paul was talking about being involved in ungodly activities.

(NIV) Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.
(NASB) Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them;
(RSV) Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

This is nothing more than quote mining the Bible. If a Christian were to apply this principle to life rigorously, they should go off to a cave and live alone the rest of their life. Even then, they will be tormented by their own sinful neighbor they could see in the mirror every day.

 

[creslaw]

Or you could just say "he or she is otherwise a good person but factor X made them act in a way that was inconsiderate or hurtful".

I would not say that because to do so abrogates personal responsibility for one's behaviour

Except of course to condemn them to a life on earth of being treated as a second-class citizen whose relationships do not deserve the same fundamental respect as others.

The Bible makes it very clear that not all sexual relationships are equal before God.

This is nothing more than quote mining the Bible. If a Christian were to apply this principle to life rigorously, they should go off to a cave and live alone the rest of their life. Even then, they will be tormented by their own sinful neighbor they could see in the mirror every day.

That is clearly not true. Christians avoid a range of activities that are inconsistent with their faith.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Except of course to condemn them to a life on earth of being treated as a second-class citizen whose relationships do not deserve the same fundamental respect as others.

Do you think God makes no distinction between relationships of His design versus sinful ones?

 

[Bible2+]

FireDragon76 said in post #521:

[Re: Ephesians 5:11]

That verse speaks of fellowship, not service and obedience to the law.

Ephesians 5:11 speaks of not having fellowship with, in the sense of not supporting, any sinful practice, such as the sin of homosexuality (Romans 1:26-27).

FireDragon76 said in post #521:

Just because a person might do that in God's name doesn't change what the act objectively means- disapproval of a person.

Not at all.

For example, Christians can freely eat with homosexuals, such as at a birthday party for a gay person. For the meal is not in support of the practice of homosexuality, but in support of the person in himself.

Likewise, while Jesus Christ ate with sinners (Luke 5:30-32), who could have included prostitutes, He never did so in a way which supported the practice of prostitution. For example, imagine if some prostitutes had come up to Him and said: "We just built a new brothel. We would love for you to come to a dinner tomorrow celebrating its completion". Clearly, Jesus would have declined that invitation, for it would have been specifically supporting a sinful activity (Ephesians 5:11). Instead, Jesus would have lovingly urged the prostitutes to "sin no more", like He urged the woman caught in adultery to "sin no more" (John 8:11).

 

[Bible2+]

creslaw said in post #527:

The Bible makes it very clear that not all sexual relationships are equal before God.

That's right.

For example, homosexuality is "against nature" (Romans 1:26-27) in the sense of how God created nature to work:

Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

God never intended for males to become sexually joined or married to other males, just as God never intended for females to become sexually joined or married to other females.

Similarly, God never intended for people to commit the sin of adultery (Galatians 5:19-21), or pedophilia (Mark 9:42).

 

[FireDragon76]

I would not say that because to do so abrogates personal responsibility for one's behaviour

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that ultimately compassion and understanding are more important than moralism.

The Bible makes it very clear that not all sexual relationships are equal before God.

God sure created a bunch of gay people, so I don't understand why he would suddenly have problems with them.

That is clearly not true. Christians avoid a range of activities that are inconsistent with their faith.

I cannot recognize this as consistent with my own religious tradition's approach to ethics. The defining characteristics of Christians in that they act from having a trust in God, this doesn't necessarily translate into moral puritanism.

 

[Phil 1:21]

God sure created a bunch of gay people, so I don't understand why he would suddenly have problems with them.

I cannot recognize this as consistent with my own religious tradition's approach to ethics. The defining characteristics of Christians in that they act from having a trust in God, this doesn't necessarily translate into moral puritanism.

I say this with all grace and love; perhaps you need to spend less time in the teachings of your particular church and more in the actual word of God.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Yet the Pink and Blue Cake was, admittedly, a regular cake option offered by the baker... except to trans people who open their mouths about what pink and blue means to them.

Well, the baker would have sold the pink and blue cake to anyone. Scardina - who has been trolling Phillips for a long time, as previously documented, wanted this pink and blue cake decorated for the event. The latter is a different story.

"In June 2017, Colorado lawyer Autumn Scardina called Masterpiece Cakeshop to request a custom cake that was blue on the outside and pink on the inside.

The occasion, Scardina told the bakery’s employees, was to celebrate her birthday, as well as the seventh anniversary of the day she had come out as transgender.

Masterpiece Cakeshop ultimately refused Scardina’s order on religious grounds.

“Phillips declined to create the cake with the blue-and-pink design because it would have celebrated messages contrary to his religious belief that sex — the status of being male or female — is given by God, is biologically determined, is not determined by perceptions or feelings, and cannot be chosen or changed,” the complaint stated."

This was not a good faith request. Scardina is the one who requested a cake with a working pe**s as previously documented.
.

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

No, that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that ultimately compassion and understanding are more important than moralism.



God sure created a bunch of gay people, so I don't understand why he would suddenly have problems with them.



I cannot recognize this as consistent with my own religious tradition's approach to ethics. The defining characteristics of Christians in that they act from having a trust in God, this doesn't necessarily translate into moral puritanism.

Compassion and understanding requires one to speak the truth in love. No truth is not love.

God created man in his image. The Word is emphatically clear that this behavior is not acceptable in any way, which I know you know. Hence, God didn't create people to commit that behavior. Not to say that people necessarily overtly chose it either. There are many commonalities in early experiences that show up when you start reviewing the evidence.

Whatever your religious tradition is, Jack Phillips came to a conclusion in good faith based upon the Word of God. Others may come to other conclusions of conscience - such as refusing to sell meat and milk together in the case of a Jewish deli owner. Our Constitution permits these variant views.

 

[FireDragon76]

Compassion and understanding requires one to speak the truth in love. No truth is not love.

Such "love" is not perceived as love by most people in the modern world anymore, myself include.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Such "love" is not perceived as love by most people in the modern world anymore, myself include.

"I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world." John 17:14

 

[RestoreTheJoy]

Such "love" is not perceived as love by most people in the modern world anymore, myself include.

Nothing new there.

They wanted to throw Jesus off a cliff when He spoke the truth in love.

And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him. 21 And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” 22 And all spoke well of him and marveled at the gracious words that were coming from his mouth. And they said, “Is not this Joseph's son?” 23 And he said to them, “Doubtless you will quote to me this proverb, ‘“Physician, heal yourself.” What we have heard you did at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.’” 24 And he said, “Truly, I say to you, no prophet is acceptable in his hometown. 25 But in truth, I tell you, there were many widows in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heavens were shut up three years and six months, and a great famine came over all the land, 26 and Elijah was sent to none of them but only to Zarephath, in the land of Sidon, to a woman who was a widow. 27 And there were many lepers in Israel in the time of the prophet Elisha, and none of them was cleansed, but only Naaman the Syrian.” 28 When they heard these things, all in the synagogue were filled with wrath. 29 And they rose up and drove him out of the town and brought him to the brow of the hill on which their town was built, so that they could throw him down the cliff.

 

[Bible2+]

FireDragon76 said in post #531:

I'm saying that ultimately compassion and understanding are more important than moralism.

They become the same when someone is in danger of burning in hell forever for his sins (Isaiah 66:24).

For part of loving others is warning them if they are living in sin (Revelation 3:19; 2 Thessalonians 3:15, Hebrews 3:13, James 5:19-20). The worst thing that a Christian can do is to coddle people who are living in sin, instead of sharing with them the hard (yet saving) truths of God's Word the Holy Bible (2 Timothy 4:2-4, cf. Jeremiah 23:14,22,29). Telling the truth to people can sometimes hurt them, but that is better than deceiving them with something which makes them feel good (Proverbs 27:6, Proverbs 28:23).

FireDragon76 said in post #531:

God sure created a bunch of gay people, so I don't understand why he would suddenly have problems with them.

Why do you say that He created gay people? Do you also believe that He created adulterers and pedophiles?

Also, do you mean that being gay is genetic?

If so, note that it has never been proven to be.

And Christian Gay Conversion Therapy can help some gay Christians to become straight, or at least to no longer practice homosexuality.

For Jesus Christ has the power to deliver Christians from slavery to any sin (John 8:34-36). And he can do this even apart from any human therapy.

Also, even if homosexuality could ever be proven to be genetic, so could alcoholism, criminal violence, and schizophrenia. Human genes in their current, fallen, corrupted state have nothing to do with proving what is moral, or what is good mental health.

Also, it is curious that homosexuals sometimes claim that what they do sexually is okay because it is genetic, while transgender people (who are also homosexual) claim that genetics is completely irrelevant, and even totally-counter, to their real identity.

So which is it?

 

[Bible2+]

Phil 1:21 said in post #532:

I say this with all grace and love; perhaps you need to spend less time in the teachings of your particular church and more in the actual word of God.

Good point (2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4).

For the Word of God, the Holy Bible, makes clear that homosexuality is sinful.

For Romans 1:26 is referring to lesbians, who have unnatural, sexual affections for each other:

Romans 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature . . .

And Romans 1:27 is referring to male homosexuals, "gays", who have unnatural, sexual lust for each other:

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Here the "recompence of their error" at the time that Romans 1:27 was written in the first century AD could have been hepatitis-type infections, but it would also include, in principle, the horrible AIDS plague in our own time.

 

[Bible2+]

RestoreTheJoy said in post #534:

God didn't create people to commit that behavior. Not to say that people necessarily overtly chose it either. There are many commonalities in early experiences that show up when you start reviewing the evidence.

Indeed, homosexuality could be the result of how one was raised, that is, based on poor "nurture", rather than "nature". (For homosexuality is "against nature": Romans 1:26-27.)

For example, boys who grew up without paternal love could be more likely to become gay.

And girls who grew up without maternal love could be more likely to become lesbians.

That is, their sexual orientation is a desperate striving for the love which they never got as children.

Also, we can't trust so-called "scientific" studies today which purport that homosexuality can be nothing but "nature" instead of "nurture", because all such studies start out with the presuppositions of "political correctness". If any study's results began to undermine these presuppositions, the study would be immediately abandoned as "flawed". Otherwise, the scientists involved would have their careers completely destroyed by their universities and the media.

For the universities and the media have been swallowed whole by "political correctness".

It's a black hole which lets no light (truth) escape.

"Political correctness" is the death of truth.

Even conservative media like Fox refuse to speak any truth regarding homosexuality, and its agenda against Biblical Christianity, for fear of being boycotted by advertisers.

Just more proof that:

1 Timothy 6:10 . . . the love of money is the root of all evil . . .

So there needs to be a conservative news source which is not dependent on advertisers.

Think of an "NPR2" supported by government funds, and staffed by conservatives, just as NPR is supported by government funds and staffed by leftists, who are continually trying to push the falsehoods of "political correctness".

*******

RestoreTheJoy said in post #537:

They wanted to throw Jesus off a cliff when He spoke the truth in love.

Good point.

Also, Biblical Christians do not hate or bully anyone by simply saying that homosexuality is sinful (Romans 1:26-27), and that Christians must not support sinful activities (Ephesians 5:11).

Instead, it is homosexuals who are now hating and bullying Biblical Christians by trying to force them to deny their religion.

When the Nazis went after the Jews, they made sure to attack Jewish businesses.

What we are witnessing today is the Kristallnacht stage of the homosexual persecution of Biblical Christians.

Ultimately, there will be a Biblical Christian Holocaust, perpetrated by the whole world (Matthew 24:9-13).

(There may be some people whose mouths water at the very thought of this.)