Clashing Worlds - Europe and Islam

[Dorothea]

Europe and the Islamic world are at war. It's a proxy conflict, fought in European capitals and on the Arab streets. But people are being killed. ​

Earlier this month, Islamic gunmen slaughtered six Christians as they left church in southern Egypt on Coptic Christmas Eve, setting off a week of retributive violence. This was just the latest incident in a cascading series of repressive and violent acts against Christians living in numerous Arab states, including the Palestinian territories, Iraq and Morocco, among other places.

Meantime, across Europe, government leaders are contemplating or enacting ever-more repressive rules on Muslim residents and citizens, who are carrying their lifestyles and grievances into unforgiving societies.

The most famous example: The Swiss electorate voted last month to ban the construction of new minarets. Then, early this month, a fiery Islamic cleric in England announced that he would organize a large protest march through the streets of a town near London that regularly honors passing hearses carrying British soldiers killed in Afghanistan. Prime Minister Gordon Brown said he was "personally appalled," and then on Tuesday Britain banned the group.​

In both worlds, the conflicts result from misunderstanding and outright intolerance, fanned oftentimes by extremists, like Geert Wilders, a Dutch member of parliament. He travels the Western world preaching an anti-Islamic screed. Wilders has hit a chord, and the transcript of one speech he gave in New York last year has gone viral, landing in millions of e-mail in-boxes and watched on YouTube nearly 1 million times.​

Wilders likes to note that "it is not a coincidence that every terrorist act is based on this fascist book the Quran, this wrong ideology, and unfortunately has been done by people from the Islamic world. I don't believe that cultures are equal. I believe that our culture is much better than the retarded Islamic culture." ​

In England, meanwhile, Anjem Choudary, leader of the banned Islamic group, posted his view on his organization's Web site recently, saying the march (now canceled) would be in honor of "the real war dead who have been shunned by the Western media and general public as they were, and continue to be, horrifically murdered in the name of democracy and freedom: the innocent Muslim man, women and children."​

An estimated 20 million Muslims now live in Europe. Many emigrated to take menial jobs that Europeans were no longer willing to do. The problem for Europeans is that these immigrants tend not to assimilate. They live in their own communities where some of their leaders enforce elements of Shariah law. ​

In some major cities, including Amsterdam and Marseille, France, they now comprise 25 percent of the population, and the anti-Islamists decry an alarmingly high birthrate among the Muslim residents, though the statistics are questionable at best. But all of that is engendering panicked talk about the possible death of European civilization.​

So Switzerland banned minarets, France forbade women to wear head scarves and, across Europe, newspapers are constantly reporting controversies and court cases over honor killings, forced marriages, female circumcision and terrorist threats. Europeans, put simply, are afraid - for themselves and for the future. ​

No one can say with any certainty what drives the rash of assaults and murders of Arab Christians in Islamic states. But for many Muslims, Christianity is a Western religion, though it was born in the Middle East. I am guessing that some Arabs see their Christian neighbors as proxies for their grievances with the West - including the way Muslims are treated in Europe and the United States. ​

Thousands of Christian families have lived in Bethlehem, the birthplace of Christ, since the faith was born. In the mid-20th century, 80 percent of the town's population was Christian. But in recent years, murders, firebombings and constant, brutal intimidation has driven away most of the Christians. Now they represent just 20 percent of the population. ​

Mosul, Iraq, has among the oldest Christian populations in the world. The Syrian Orthodox Church of St. Thomas, built in 770, was damaged in a bombing last month. That was the sixth attack on Christians there in less than a month, the New York Times reported. ​

"Christian leaders inside and outside the country reported that members of their communities" in Iraq "received threatening letters demanding that Christians leave or be killed," the State Department said in its 2009 report on religious freedom.​

On both continents, anger is rising; the conflicts are growing more frequent and violent. Thanks to extremists on both sides, I don't see a good end. ​

Clashing worlds - Europe and Islam



What do you all think of what's going on in Europe (and the ME)?

 

[ArmyMatt]

Lord have mercy!

 

[IrishOrthodox]

An estimated 20 million Muslims now live in Europe. Many emigrated to take menial jobs that Europeans were no longer willing to do. The problem for Europeans is that these immigrants tend not to assimilate. They live in their own communities where some of their leaders enforce elements of Shariah law. ​

In some major cities, including Amsterdam and Marseille, France, they now comprise 25 percent of the population, and the anti-Islamists decry an alarmingly high birthrate among the Muslim residents, though the statistics are questionable at best. But all of that is engendering panicked talk about the possible death of European civilization.​

So Switzerland banned minarets, France forbade women to wear head scarves and, across Europe, newspapers are constantly reporting controversies and court cases over honor killings, forced marriages, female circumcision and terrorist threats. Europeans, put simply, are afraid - for themselves and for the future. ​

Well, the first two quoted paragraphs pretty much justifies the last sentence of the third. History also pretty much speaks volumes to this as well. Please, do not mistake my comments as hating muslims - I am simply pointing out that muslims over the centuries have made their "mark" on history (and not all in a good way). For a faith (Islam) that has borrowed so much from Chritianity, and was supposedly taught to respect and tolerate faiths different than theirs by Muhamed himself, I can't help but wonder if someone - in the famous words of Bugs Bunny - "must have made a wrong turn at Albuquerque."

 

[Andrew21091]

I wish the Muslims who attack Christians in the Middle East should know that those who persecute them in Europe are secularists who could care less in Christianity was destroyed. Europe is a secular and atheist land and I think their biggest problem is that most Muslims practice their faith and it goes against secularism and is counter-cultural (which Christianity should do). For many Muslims, God is everything and following the laws of Islam are more important that conforming to a society that goes against their beliefs. I think Christian should also stand against the terrible things that their states do and not show any support to them. I do not blame the Muslims for being angry, but they are taking that anger out on the wrong people.

 

[JohntheTheologian]

Writing from England, I don't think Muslims are persecuted here. Only a very small number of extremists have been banned from speaking etc. Muslims are free to practice their religion, spread copies of the Qu'ran, build mosques and their own schools - far more rights than Christians are given in countries like Saudi Arabia.

It should be noted that Europe was even more tolerant of Islam until the beginning of this century. There has been, for example, a Yemeni Arab community in South Shields (outside Newcastle upon Tyne) since the reign of Queen Victoria! It is only in the recent years of rising Islamic jihadism that Europe has begun to become nervous about some of its Muslim inhabitants.

 

[Kreikkalainen]

Writing from Denmark - no war here & I'm not afraid of my many muslim neighbours .

 

[Anglian]

Dear Sister,

excellent post.

The Copts have been under Muslim rule since the 640s. When that rule started Egypt, like the whole crescent from Carthage through to Constantinople was Christian, and Alexandria, like Constantinople and Antioch were centres of Christian thought as well as worship. Now about 12% of Egyptians are Coptic, and the number elsewhere in that same crescent is few; neither are any of these places centres of Christian thought. So what happened, did they all just leave? Or were there so many conversions and so many massacres that the numbers dwindled accordingly?

If one compares that with the West one certainly sees the Spanish expelling Muslims in 1492. But that was from territory their ancestors had seized by force. One also sees Muslims being forced out of areas of the Balkans such as Salonika in the aftermath of World War I. So there are certainly sins on both sides. But these were, to repeat, all formerly Christian regions conquered by Islam by the sword - not areas originally Muslim seized by Christians.

This emphasises the obvious point. The relationship between the One True Faith and Islam originated in the latter attacking the former. Whilst it was in the ascendant (as it was for much of the period from its beginning to the eighteenth century) one seldom comes across Muslim complaints. These start when Christian Powers began to win territory from the Ottomans.

All of which has little to do with the influx of Muslims into Europe over the last forty years; that is the product of economic migration. The difficulty stems from the fact that Europe's liberal and secular societies have seen no problem with these communities retaining their initial cultural and religious identity, and have even gone out of their way to facilitate this. (In the UK even translating social welfare benefits documents into the language of the immigrants rather than insisting they learn the language of the country providing the benefits).

This came from the secularist assumption that religion was a dying force in the world which would be killed off by education and prosperity. As with so much liberal secular prophecy this was bang wrong. Since 9/11 they have been trying to play catch up and still allow Muslims all the freedoms of the West - even those who would abolish such freedoms if they could.

The Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq have helped radicalise many younger Muslims in the West, The most recent would be suicide bomber was not some product of disadvantage and poverty, but a wealthy young man from a background of immense privilege. Many UK Universities have such men in them - and no idea of what they are up to.

Muslims in the West enjoy freedoms that the Copts can only dream of - and still some of them whinge. Double standards rule.

peace,

Anglian

 

[mysho44]

Writing from Bulgaria, 10-12% of the population here are Muslims, mainly Turks, but also Pomaks (ethnic Bulgarian Muslims), and Roma (Gypsies). They are integrated into Bulgarian society but, assimilation into Bulgarian culture is another story. Further cleavages occur on the political level, with the 'Movement for Rights and Freedoms', a political party founded as a 'Turkish national movement' (in response to an assimilation campaign by the communists), capturing the majority of ethnic Turkish voters (though there are ethnic Bulgarian voters as well), but its ethnic, and religious basis has been called into question as being against Bulgaria's Constitution, which forbids the formation of political parties on 'ethnic, racial, or religious' grounds.

On a personal level though, relations between Christians and Muslims here are quite positive, but a low-level of discrimination is evident on all sides, which increases or decreases depending on the region.

 

[CathiewebbJ]

The thing is is that Islam is not compatible with Western culture and lifestyle at all. Given Islam's violent history and the unfavorable contrast of its oppressive practices against 21st century values, Muslims are hard-pressed to repackage their faith in the modern age.

Some of its leading apologists have come to rely on tricks involving semantics and half-truths that are, in turn, repeated by novices and even those outside the faith. Islam has caused and is causing a lot of problems in the West. The faith itself is a militant one - 'die or convert'.

Hmm, Islamic and Western relations and communication issues;

Most Muslims live peacefully, without harming others, so how can Islam be a violent religion? If Islam were the religion of terrorists, then why aren’t most Muslims terrorists? The same question can easily be turned around. If Islam is a religion of peace, then why is it the only one that consistently produces religiously-motivated terrorist attacks each and every day of the year? Why are thousands of people willing and able to cut off an innocent person’s head or fly a plane into a building while screaming praises to Allah? Where’s the outrage among other Muslims when this happens… and why do they get more worked up over cartoons and burkhas, hijabs?

The Qur'an plainly teaches that it is not just proper to kill in the name of Allah in certain circumstances, but that it is actually a requirement. Muslims who don't believe in killing over religion may be that way out of ignorance or because they are more loyal to the moral law written in their hearts than they are to the details of Muhammad’s religion. Those who put Islam first or know Islam best know otherwise.

In fact, few Muslims have ever read the Qur'an to any extent, much less pursued an honest investigation of the actual words and deeds of Muhammad, which were more in line with hedonism, deception, power and violence than with moral restraint. The harsh rules that Muslim countries impose on free speech to protect Islam from critique also prevent it from being fully understood. In the West, many Muslims, devout or otherwise, simply prefer to believe that Islam is aligned with the Judeo-Christian principles of peace and tolerance, even if it means filtering evidence to the contrary.

Every person should be treated with respect but the whole ''I'm a good Muslim, so that means Islam is good'' attititude is not sitting well with many people. Additionally too many Muslims are over sensitive when it comes to discussing Islamic issues and concerns, which unfortunately makes the non-Muslim communities resent the Muslim communities even more.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Here is the video from Geert Wilders referred to in the article:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0jUuzdfqfc

 

[Andrew21091]

The thing is is that Islam is not compatible with Western culture and lifestyle at all. Given Islam's violent history and the unfavorable contrast of its oppressive practices against 21st century values, Muslims are hard-pressed to repackage their faith in the modern age.

I do admire them for holding onto their faith. I think it is a sin for Christians to repackage their faith in this modern age which many have done and are trying to do. The ecumenical movement is a sign of this modern world repackaging which seeks to unify all of Christianity (and some, all religions). Orthodoxy is betrayed in the ecumenical movement. 21st Century values are of the evil one, and I don't think that any true believing Christian should support it. Even if Islam has the sword to our throats or the West has a gun to our head, we cannot betray the faith in order to please the modernist spirit of this world that directly works against the Church.

 

[IrishOrthodox]

...21st Century values are of the evil one, and I don't think that any true believing Christian should support it. Even if Islam has the sword to our throats or the West has a gun to our head, we cannot betray the faith in order to please the modernist spirit of this world that directly works against the Church.

(emphasis added)

I stand with you brother. Let them (agents of the evil one) bring their worst, and let us look to the lives of the Holy Saints/Martyrs - may we have their prayers and their lives to inspire us.

Your brother in Christ

 

[Blackknight]

Unfortunately looking at the history of Islam and the results of Muslim rule in modern states all I see is a lot of violence and bloodshed. The apologists will tell you that the extremists are wrong but there seems to be an awful lot of them out there.

We should also take a long hard look at Mohammed and the true message of oppression that he teaches. Christ never once picked up a sword but the Muslims have been engaged in Jihad for centuries. Christ never married a 6 year old girl, etc.

Yeah, it's not politically correct to say these things but they are true.

 

[TheCunctator]

The rise of Islam in Europe today is a direct result of the malaise Christianity is in in the West.

Europe has decidedly moved (Western Europe, anyway), from being the stronghold of Christendom to becoming a post-Christian, apathetic shell.

When Christianity was prominent, Europe had pride in itself and had a strong moral culture form which to base itself and grow strong. Unfortunately, the West has become so successful that it also became haughty and complacent, and consequently, abandoned Christianity for the cult of "modernism" and atheism.

Unless there is a revival of Christianity in Europe, the Old Continent will cease to exist because of the pressure of Islam. Islam will surely continue growing, and, without a radical turn around, will transform Europe first into a battleground, second into an appendage of the Middle East.

With this in mind, I can only say this:

O Holy Lord, please, have mercy!

 

[Kreikkalainen]

A few months ago the BBC website published an article on all this "Europe will be an islamic confederation next week" business with some figures, facts & sober thoughts. I'd recommend it for interested people.

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Debunking a YouTube hit

 

[Dorothea]

A few months ago the BBC website published an article on all this "Europe will be an islamic confederation next week" business with some figures, facts & sober thoughts. I'd recommend it for interested people.

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Debunking a YouTube hit

Thanks. I'm going to have a look at it when i get some time later on today.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

To me, the biggest danger in the interaction between Christianity and Islam is identifying Muslims as enemies. That is a lie of the devil and the worst thing that we can do as Christians. No human being is an enemy and we are charged with loving everyone, regardless of their faith or their disposition toward us:

If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. But love your enemies, do good to them, ... Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. --Luke 6

our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. --Ephesians 6

We are all called to carry our cross and die to the world. Even if there is an Islamic threat of some kind, we cannot change our commission to love and show ourselves to be little 'Christs' bearing any insult or threat in the same way our Lord did.

What an amazing witness to the secular Western or nominal Christian world it would be if Christians set a Christ-like example of love and forgiveness in the face of an "Islamic threat." It would be utter foolishness to the world and a display of the Wisdom of Christ.

M.

 

[TheCunctator]

A few months ago the BBC website published an article on all this "Europe will be an islamic confederation next week" business with some figures, facts & sober thoughts. I'd recommend it for interested people.

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Debunking a YouTube hit

I saw the video "Muslim Demographics."

I knew instantly that it fiddled with some of the figures. There's no way that French Muslims have such a high fertility rate, nor will the Netherlands become Islamic in 15 years.

That being said, I also think the BBC tried to play down the threat as well. The growth of Islam is indeed a severe threat and this must be recognized. We won't need to wait until Muslims are 50% of the population before disaster strikes. 15-20% will already be sufficient to have severe clashes.

 

[Blackknight]

We must remember to not get too attached to this world. There will always be wars and culture clashes.

 

[Aesjn]

I find it interesting that my friends in Europe, who all think any fear of Islam is ridiculous (yeah I can barely stand talking to them anymore), always say things like "People have always immigrated and it hasn't changed Europe." But, that statement is clearly untrue. There has never been a scale of migration into Europe like there has been the last hundred years. It doesn't matter how far you go back, there never has been. There is no basis to determine that it "won't change anything." Secondly, everywhere else where such migration has taken place HAS changed. All of Northern Africa, all of Turkey, all of Syria, Lebanon, probably almost all of Israel and Jordan, and a large part of Iraq, also used to be entirely Christian but immigration (which is what invasion is) of Muslims changed that. The claim that immigration of a foreign cultures doesn't change anything or can't is pathetically ignorant.

The invasion of Europe isn't something new or questionable, it's just part of the progression of something that has been going on since Islam began. Turkey, Northern Africa, most of the now Muslim world was once part of the "European" cultural sphere and already lost their battles... they stand as a testament to what Islam does.