Clashing Worlds - Europe and Islam

[Blackknight]

Why is it places like Japan don't have these problems? Oh wait, they don't allow immigrants. Or at least their immigration laws are very, very strict.

 

[Crosscheck]

Why is it places like Japan don't have these problems? Oh wait, they don't allow immigrants. Or at least their immigration laws are very, very strict.

There is some immigration into Japan from places like Korea, but they're very strict about it. If Japan had Korean riots like we see with Muslims in Europe they'd all be on boats gonig home.

 

[Protoevangel]

There is some immigration into Japan from places like Korea, but they're very strict about it. If Japan had Korean riots like we see with Muslims in Europe they'd all be on boats gonig home.

Yea, things are way different in Japan. I remember going to businesses and being turned away... "No gaijin."

 

[Andrew21091]

At last I checked Orthodox Christians weren't intentionally impoverishing themselves to live in religious ghetto's. Living in mainstream soceity does not require taking part in every aspect of the popular culture.

Doing nothing but lessons on the Koran is not an education. A proper education teaches children skills they will need to live and work in soceity. I have no problem with children learning religion, but that doesn't mean to the exclusion of everything else. Any immigrant group needs to learn the prevailing language. Not doing so is merely barring oneself from success.

Many Muslims believe that the Qur'an is all that is needed to teach someone how to live. It will take them time to blend in better. Many of them are new and they want to stick together and their culture is very important to them. I believe it was and is the same with immigrants coming to America. You still have ethnic and religious neighborhoods. What do you expect though when they see the society they live around as immoral. It will take them time.

No one is being punished at all. They are guests in other peoples' country. If they cannot be good guests they need to go home.

Isn't that what the KKK says to all the people who come here to America from other countries?

Then they can go home and do whatever they want. A civil committment to freedom of religion does not exist in Europe in the way it exists in the United States.
No one said all Muslims are extremists. However, they are certainly more prone to it than other groups. The poverty that exists in the Muslim world, and that they bring with them into the west, combine with religous zeal is a recipe for extremism.

And banning some of their cultural and religious norms will do great with calming their hatred for the West...

 

[Philothei]

Promotions in any field mean managing other people. People without the language skills to effectively manage others are going to be stuck on the bottom rungs, doesn't really matter whether they're working in curry houses or practicing medicine.

Those who practice medicine are not lacking any language skills either.. but in general that language "impediment" has not stiffled Greeks from attaining wealth through the restaurant business in America has it? Same for small business such as dry cleaners run by Indians in England

The English were handing out citizenship like candy for a while, but in the majority of cases these immigrants are not citizens of the European states they are living in.

The Indians are part of special 'treatment" due their commonwealth status with England and so are Pakistani so ... they have to hand it out..like candy.

Most European states have a state church, and that they allow religious freedom now does not mean they are obligated to do so the way the American government is. This is why the Germans can tell the scientologists to take a hike, and the US can't.

National churches are losing status I know that as the Greek Church will be obligated to pay taxes, give some of its property to the state and etc...losing all its priveledges sooner or later.

That is simply not likely. Immigrant groups in the US experienced success when they mainstreamed, whether we're talking about the Irish, the Italians, or any other group. Muslims on the majority choose to live cut off from mainstream European soceity. When they children don't attend the formal school systems and the like it becomes increasinly unlikely they will ever break out of their immigrant status.

ARe you suggesting that they will not have "upper mobility" cause they are poor...Chinese were poor when they got in the US but look at them now. I would think they are invloved in all aspects of life in the US and very respected yet not completely integrated within our society. That is irrelevant. One of the elements they have is "morality" and that kept them going they are family minded and so are the muslims ...see the similarities here?

How can you have three generations of "illegal" alliens in a country is ...totally absurd

Actually, international law doesn't protect them at all. Asylum seekers by law must go to the nearest safe country. That is nowhere in western Europe for any of these people from the Muslim world. The is economic immigration guised as asylum seeking, and by the letter of the law any European state is free to reject their asylum claims and expell them.

proof ?I know Greece has no right to expell them actually has been in "hot water" for trying to do so

United Kingdom : Euro-Islam: News and Analysis on Islam in Europe and the United States

The French have put up with an a lot, so have the English, and the Germans, and everyone else.

Not a good excuse to discriminate against them either... If Germany has close to 10 million Turks to work in their factories why it is the Turks' fault for accepting to go there? Does not make any sense...

 

[narnia59]

Of course, in the long term the only real solution that preserves the cultures of western Europe is for western Europeans to start having children again. Though the same is true of the European-American population as well.

This to me is the source and crux of the problem. The embracing of artificial contraception (even among Catholics in spite of the Holy Father's clear teaching otherwise) has rejected the idea that children are the true blessing of marriage and settled for a minimum number of children (or none) that least impact the proverbial pursuit of happiness which the culture says is things.

Muslims in general still view children as blessings, and the more you have, the more blessed you are. Their birth rates are somewhere in the 5-8 range while in Europe they're down to 1.3-1.8 and in the US about 2.1. There's a reason Islam is the fast growing religion in the world and it isn't because of new conversions.

 

[Crosscheck]

Many Muslims believe that the Qur'an is all that is need to teach someone how to live. It will take them time to blend in better. Many of them are new and they want to stick together and their culture is very important to them. I believe it was and is the same with immigrants coming to America. You still have ethnic and religious neighborhoods. What do you expect though when they see the society they live around as immoral. It will take them time.

Then if the soceity is so immoral they can go back to where they came from and live cane eachother for having a few Britney Spears photos. Immigrants often do cluster together when they arrive, but they then accept and move into the mainstream culture. We have Muslims in Europe that are second and third generation immigrants still opting to try and maintain a separate soceity within someone's country, this behavior is not acceptable.
If they want to view of the Koran as the sole source of wisdom and authority that's fine. They still need to learn to write, to do math, and to use technology. These things are not covered by the Koran.

Isn't that what the KKK says to all the people who come here to America from other countries?

I'm not really an expert on what the KKK says, however, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

And banning some of their cultural and religious norms will do great with calming their hatred for the West...

So we're supposed to turn an blind eye to honor killings because they do? Again, it's pretty simple: if they don't like the rules in France they don't have to live in France.

 

[Crosscheck]

The Indians are part of special 'treatment" due their commonwealth status with England and so are Pakistani so ... they have to hand it out..like candy.

They don't have to do anything. You see we have these things called legislatures and they can change and reform laws as they see fit.

National churches are losing status I know that as the Greek Church will be obligated to pay taxes, give some of its property to the state and etc...losing all its priveledges sooner or later.

So what? None of that changes the fact that the first amendment is a uniquely American concept that does not exist elsewhere.

ARe you suggesting that they will not have "upper mobility" cause they are poor...Chinese were poor when they got in the US but look at them now. I would think they are invloved in all aspects of life in the US and very respected yet not completely integrated within our society. That is irrelevant. One of the elements they have is "morality" and that kept them going they are family minded and so are the muslims ...see the similarities here?

There are two types of Chinese immigrants: those that have mainstreamed have achieved a fair measure of economic success. Those that still live in ghetto's like SF's Chinatown are typically not well off and live day to day with things like Chinese street gangs ran by the Triads. It is nearly impossible to succeed within a system if you will not work within that system.

How can you have three generations of "illegal" alliens in a country is ...totally absurd

You do realize that not every country in the world conforms to the American notion that just because you were born here you are automatically a cititzen?

proof ?I know Greece has no right to expell them actually has been in "hot water" for trying to do so

Greece is a soverign state and can do as they wish. The United Nations is a powerless body that can do nothing but talk.

Not a good excuse to discriminate against them either... If Germany has close to 10 million Turks to work in their factories why it is the Turks' fault for accepting to go there? Does not make any sense...

Germany offers a guest worker program, but that program has rules. You will follow all of German law, and you will go home when your time is up. If they don't like the rules they don't need to come. An offer is a two way street and both parties have obligations to meet. Make a problem of yourself and you really have no one to blame when the police turn a blind eye to the local skin heads knocking your teeth out...

 

[Greg the byzantine]

but in general that language "impediment" has not stiffled Greeks from attaining wealth through the restaurant business in America has it?

:Shout out to my Diner homies:

 

[Philothei]

They don't have to do anything. You see we have these things called legislatures and they can change and reform laws as they see fit.

USA has set presidency already ...

So what? None of that changes the fact that the first amendment is a uniquely American concept that does not exist elsewhere.

see above

There are two types of Chinese immigrants: those that have mainstreamed have achieved a fair measure of economic success. Those that still live in ghetto's like SF's Chinatown are typically not well off and live day to day with things like Chinese street gangs ran by the Triads. It is nearly impossible to succeed within a system if you will not work within that system.

And who says the majority does not?

You do realize that not every country in the world conforms to the American notion that just because you were born here you are automatically a cititzen?

oh yeah? that is why icons will not be alowed in the classrooms in Greece? Who has set the presidency here? What about taxing church property? I think you have not being answering vital facts I presented here

Greece is a soverign state and can do as they wish. The United Nations is a powerless body that can do nothing but talk.

It has nothing to do with United Nations ... but European Union laws like the one that will be voted to forbit Greece from deciding whether or not they can have icons in their classerooms and church property and teaching religion /christianity in public schools... I think being visiting Greece every year I am well aware of the problem here..

Germany offers a guest worker program, but that program has rules. You will follow all of German law, and you will go home when your time is up. If they don't like the rules they don't need to come. An offer is a two way street and both parties have obligations to meet. Make a problem of yourself and you really have no one to blame when the police turn a blind eye to the local skin heads knocking your teeth out...

10 million Turks are legal citizens maybe that is what is happening now but now it is actually too late



That is not what we hear... and if Europe will use "local skin heads" as part of its secret "anti-terrorism/crime methods " to supress the "minorities"....well good luck to them Germans and French :o
An eye for an eye makes people blind... you know. I see another clash and internal turmoil...Is that what we want?

Europe opened the door to this...and condemned Greece for not accepting immigrants... and all.. Cause we are a small country and we already have more than we can "afford" to have.


But it is sad as Europe never learned its lesson about the muslims the first time around. And the Turkish propaganda that has been employed by the British and all western Europeans is like talking with both end of their mouths.. And that is a notorious method nothing new...

It is sad that while they promote the "history" of the so called "old Turkish empire" etc. they are now suddenly feeling the pressure that they suddenly they have to "stop or change" their immigration laws.

They say history repeats itself and I hope I do not live to witness it.... Like I said you cannot have your cake and eat it too, use people and then not "pay" them their due or accept them as equals in a country that you use democratic means to everyone else... It is just not ethical.

And BTW the west is not experienced in dealing with the Muslims ...we in the East are truly experienced and I think thus more apt to know their weaknesses and stenghths. We lived under their rule for 400 years you would think we know something more that the west I also doubted Europe would have kept their identity the way Greeks did under their rule and esp. their religion

 

[Blackknight]

I guess I'm kind of torn on this issue. I don't like Muslims trying to impose Sharia on us any more than I like Christians (mostly Evangelicals) trying to ban rock and roll music, etc. At the same time I don't want to be a xenophobic bigot and all people are created in the image of God.

Most of the Arabs that I have met are honest, hard working people that are just trying to get by in America. I live in Michigan so we have a lot of them around here.

 

[Crosscheck]

USA has set presidency already ...

What does the executive body of the American government have to do with anything?

oh yeah? that is why icons will not be alowed in the classrooms in Greece? Who has set the presidency here? What about taxing church property? I think you have not being answering vital facts I presented here

I don't know if you simply don't command the English language well or not, but you haven't presented anything. Icons in Greek schools have nothing to do with how various nations determine citizenship.

It has nothing to do with United Nations ... but European Union laws like the one that will be voted to forbit Greece from deciding whether or not they can have icons in their classerooms and church property and teaching religion /christianity in public schools... I think being visiting Greece every year I am well aware of the problem here..

The European Union is a trade confederation, membership is strictly on a voluntary basis and the EU has no ability to force anyone to do anything. The British will not adopt the Euro-dollar for example. If the Greeks are changing their policy it is their choice. They could ignore they EU like the British have with the Pound, or they could resign their membership.

10 million Turks are legal citizens maybe that is what is happening now but now it is actually too late

You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between a citizen and a legal resident. Germany does not have 10 million Turkish citizens. Germany has a lot of Turkish guest workers who are legally allowed to live and work in Germany for a limited period of time, that does not make them citizens. Obtaining German citizenship is very difficult, and for most guest workers and their families a legal impossilbity.

That is not what we hear... and if Europe will use "local skin heads" as part of its secret "anti-terrorism/crime methods " to supress the "minorities"....well good luck to them Germans and French :o
An eye for an eye makes people blind... you know. I see another clash and internal turmoil...Is that what we want?

I merely pointed out that social order will be keep in any soceity. Whether by offical bodies like the police, or through youthful citizens that like to shave their heads and fight in the streets. I merely have little sympathy for Muslim populations that use rioting and violence to try and force others to do what they want, but demand protection when the same tactics are used against them. Nor do I see anything in the history of Christainity that implies we have to kiss Muslim rear end just because they demand it. Charles the Hammer had a pretty good policy on Muslim "immigration."

And BTW the west is not experienced in dealing with the Muslims ...we in the East are truly experienced and I think thus more apt to know their weaknesses and stenghths. We lived under their rule for 400 years you would think we know something more that the west I also doubted Europe would have kept their identity the way Greeks did under their rule and esp. their religion

The west is rather experience with Muslims, we spent centuries driving their armies back.

 

[Philothei]

What does the executive body of the American government have to do with anything?

it sets an example for other nations to emulate? and it gives minority its rights? I am so sorry it just does not make sense to you

I don't know if you simply don't command the English language well or not, but you haven't presented anything. Icons in Greek schools have nothing to do with how various nations determine citizenship.

Nice There is nothing wrong with my English
The fact the European bank system is pressuring Greece to adopt the "western" date of Easter instead of the EO rings any bells as to what pressure EU exerts on its members?

The European Union is a trade confederation, membership is strictly on a voluntary basis and the EU has no ability to force anyone to do anything. The British will not adopt the Euro-dollar for example. If the Greeks are changing their policy it is their choice. They could ignore they EU like the British have with the Pound, or they could resign their membership.

Now you are setting new guide posts... They could always resign if they cannot abide... How is this part of this discussion? The changing of the policy is not their choice. As much as it has been their choice in matters of immigration... There are rules if you do not believe me go into their site and check it out I am not going to do the homework for you.
Also the way that Enlgand run away with keeping its own currency is due to the fact they are "older" member; while in reality it is because they can run away with it..

You don't seem to understand that there is a difference between a citizen and a legal resident. Germany does not have 10 million Turkish citizens. Germany has a lot of Turkish guest workers who are legally allowed to live and work in Germany for a limited period of time, that does not make them citizens. Obtaining German citizenship is very difficult, and for most guest workers and their families a legal impossilbity.

I understand very well and thanks for looking out for me


and feel free to counter my evidence:

Under previous German law, children born to foreigners in Germany were not entitled to German citizenship because the law was based on jus sanguinis, in other words on a blood connection. This was modified in 1991 and in 1999 German citizenship law recognised jus soli whereby people born in Germany could now claim citizenship. [82] In 2000, legislation was passed which conferred German citizenship on the German-born children of foreigners, and the naturalisation process was made easier, though dual citizenship is still not tolerated and any person possessing it by virtue of birth to foreign parents must choose between the ages of 18 and 23 which citizenship she or he wishes to retain, and forfeit the other. [83]

Turks in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



What you seem not to take into account is that these Turks are bringing their families and they are established well enough to have schools etc. and full preveledges that all German citizens enjoy... Their children have "rights" to stay and attend the German universities...Nothing the Germans can do to counter this.

I merely pointed out that social order will be keep in any soceity. Whether by offical bodies like the police, or through youthful citizens that like to shave their heads and fight in the streets. I merely have little sympathy for Muslim populations that use rioting and violence to try and force others to do what they want, but demand protection when the same tactics are used against them. Nor do I see anything in the history of Christainity that implies we have to kiss Muslim rear end just because they demand it. Charles the Hammer had a pretty good policy on Muslim "immigration."

you are presenting here a false dichotomy... either have a "strong" policing or a weak one. When in reality one just have one purpose to not give people rights despite the fact they disererve them or not.
Christians has to be Christians in every given instance despite opposition. If our God is true why would Christians be afraid of "the unbelievers"? I do not see why Muslims are different from the Atheism that exists in Western Europe. We are not as EO afraid of people of converting to Islam it is the problem of the west with its "weak" convuleted message and secular ethics that should be afraid. We endured a half of century Muslim rule... the EO faith does not need to "kiss anyone's rear end". And we have proved we never did that instead we were able with our means to overcome our enemies and attain freedome.

Charles Martel? A military man who defeated the Mulsims in France? That was an invasion...I am confused here..

The west is rather experience with Muslims, we spent centuries driving their armies back.[/

Where? The crusades in the Holy Land where they regained control? The only place it took place was Spain and that is thank to the Spaniards...and the French and in Vienna with the Austrians but never the Northern Europeans ever took part in suppressing the Mulsims... So I have no idea how you are coming up with this...

 

[FreeinChrist]

Since this is a debate thread, it is getting moved to St. Justin's.

Will leave a redirect for a month.