Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

[Bob S]

Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost all Christian denominations make that same claim. Not "just BobRyan".

I have never read that almost all Christian denominations believe Abraham had the ten commandments. Why do you keep referring to all the Babylonian beliefs. Just show us from scripture.

Only ONE Gospel Gal 1:6-9
That ONE Gospel preached to Abraham Gal 3:8
Who Kept God's Commandments Gen 26:5
Where "honor your father and mother is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

The Gospel is not the ten commandments. You have proved absolutely nothing.

And the Gospel New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 has that same moral law of God written on the heart and mind, forgiveness of sins, and adoption into the family of God.

If you believe such a thing then why are you not observing all of them? The 613 commands given only to Israel have many so called "moral laws".

No wonder Bible scholars on BOTH sides of the Sabbath debate in almost all Christian denominations make that same claim

There you go again (see above).

And Bob S differs... ok so we get that.

I hope to tell you I differ from what you are trying to teach. My message come strictly from scripture, your message comes from Babylonian scholars. "Babylonian" is a word your revered prophet used to describe all other churches.

Bob S has claimed that if Abraham sinned he must not have the New Covenant

I did??? Where?

- so then we could ask Bob S -- 'And so are YOU under the New Covenant?"

Absolutely, I am a new covenant Christian. What are you?

by the standard you are promoting for it?

No, by the standards found in the New Testament.

I am an SDA who never claims that - and Bob S knows it, so at least we can agree on this part.

Agree??? Certainly not after reading post #57. "I always say the TEN are INCLUDED in the LAW written on the heart.
The "NEW Covenant" Jer 31:31-34 has the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers - spoken by God at Sinai - written on the heart."

Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath debate freely admit that this means ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments are included in it."

And, of course, your interpretation of "moral law" has always been just the ten commandments. I know I can find other statements that prove your last statement in post #320 is false.

 

[Leaf473]

Well in real life it does not appear that people with no Bible get the entire bible downloaded by the Holy Spirit into their heart or mind.

So then pagans etc with no Bible may indeed be impacted by the holy Spirit in regard to Love for God and Loving others as themselves - yet they bow before those little family idols and worship the family gods and in some cases participate in polygamy.

That's correct, they don't get the entire Bible. But I do think they get the work of the law written on their hearts.

I don't think it's a set of letters that is written, I think it's more like ideas and approaches.

I also think that we're not going to see it in the majority of people. Godly people are usually in the minority, imo.

In some cases, too, people will engage in cultural practices but not attach any importance or meaning to them.

So for example I say a word like "Wednesday" even though I'm not a worshiper of Odin.

See also 2 kings 5:17-19

 

[Leaf473]

we keep the command "do not take God's name in vain" by "really" not taking God's name in vain no matter which of the many ways that may be violated.

We keep the command to not bow down before a graven image - by really not bowing down before images or promising to serve them - and avoiding all the many other varied ways to break that commandment.

I think that is obvious - for all of us not not just those who choose to keep the Bible Sabbath.

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So how then is the command "do not take God's name in vain" --- -'Taken away" by Christ in your view - since even in the NT "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 -- which most certainly must include the "Law written on the heart"

This is why I keep asking about a list.

So far:
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Genesis 9:4
Exodus 20:3-17
Leviticus 11
Leviticus 27:32
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Do you agree with that list? Is it complete?

If a person believes that Exodus 20:3-17 is to be kept by the letter, then I think it follows that Leviticus 27:32 is also to be kept by the letter.

Alternatively, if we keep Leviticus 27:32 in principle but not in letter, then it follows that we have the same approach to Exodus 20:3-17.

So it's not that anything is "taken away". It's a question of letter or principle, imo.

Do you keep Leviticus 27:32 by the letter?

 

[Bob S]

Do you keep Leviticus 27:32 by the letter?

I don't think Bob R is an Israelite farmer living under the laws of the old Sinai covenant. Jesus lived under that covenant yet He would not have been a tithe payer by the letter or the Spirit. Bob may pay an Adventist modified false tithe according to the demands of their system. 30 some percent of them supposedly do even though they are not growers of crops or raisers of cattle or other animals. SDAs pay their tithe in shekels which was not how God set-up the law. Ellen was the "prophet" who led them astray.

 

[Leaf473]

I don't think Bob R is an Israelite farmer living under the laws of the old Sinai covenant. Jesus lived under that covenant yet He would not have been a tithe payer by the letter or the Spirit. Bob may pay an Adventist modified false tithe according to the demands of their system. 30 some percent of them supposedly do even though they are not growers of crops or raisers of cattle or other animals. SDAs pay their tithe in shekels which was not how God set-up the law. Ellen was the "prophet" who led them astray.

Hi Bob S

Good to hear from you!

I don't think anyone here on CF follows the letters of the tithing commandments.

There may be some super observant Jewish people somewhere who come close, especially with the tithe of the grain.

People today usually think of tithing as 10% of your money income $$$,
which is not the letters of any commandment that I can think of. Maybe there is one and I can't think of it?

What's this about SDAs and shekels?

 

[BobRyan]

This is why I keep asking about a list.

It is why I keep giving you the start for that list - with the Ten Commandments. A great example of part of the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers , as "written on heart and mind" under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 known in the O.T. and unchanged in the N.T. Heb 8:6-12.

Bible details so obvious that Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath discussion in almost all denominations - admit to them. So not "just you SDAs".

So my question for you - is whether you were able to deal with the TEN as the start of that list where Christ says in Matt 5 that the deeper meaning for each commandment always preserves the Commandment as God gave it - and also expands its reach and scope.

Interesting all these pages of posts - and you have said it both way "Law removed" and also the TEN remain.

What's this about SDAs and shekels?

Is it your claim that those affirming "the Baptist Confession of Faith" about all TEN of the TEN commandments included in Eden and included in the Law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant -- are "SDAs" , and so also for "The Westminster Confession of Faith"?

All TEN of the Ten Commandments written on the heart must have at least some meaning for you - does it not?

 

[BobRyan]

I don't think Bob R is an Israelite farmer .

Nor was D.L. Moody
Nor was C.H. Spurgeon
Nor was R.C Sproul
Nor were all the other bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations - on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic - that affirmed that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.

 

[BABerean2]

Nor was D.L. Moody
Nor was C.H. Spurgeon
Nor was R.C Sproul
Nor were all the other bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations - on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic - that affirmed that all TEN of the TEN Commandments are written on the heart under the NEW Covenant.

We are still waiting on either you or your "scholars" above to explain how Adam could have committed adultery, or how Adam could honor his mother.


If you have to use their man-made confessions to justify your doctrine, you are on the same thin ice.



.

 

[Leaf473]

It is why I keep giving you the start for that list - with the Ten Commandments. A great example of part of the moral law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers , as "written on heart and mind" under the New Covenant Jer 31:31-34 known in the O.T. and unchanged in the N.T. Heb 8:6-12.

Bible details so obvious that Bible scholars on both sides of the Sabbath discussion in almost all denominations - admit to them. So not "just you SDAs".

Why do you put the phrase "just you SDAs" in quotation marks? Is it something I wrote? Are you quoting someone else?

So my question for you - is whether you were able to deal with the TEN as the start of that list where Christ says in Matt 5 that the deeper meaning for each commandment always preserves the Commandment as God gave it - and also expands its reach and scope.

Yes, I am able to deal with the 10 as the start of the list. And then when we move to Leviticus 27:32, the question I'm currently asking is do you keep that law by the letter?

Interesting all these pages of posts - and you have said it both way "Law removed" and also the TEN remain.

Yes, depending on whether I perceived you to be talking about the letter or the principle. So, do you keep Leviticus 27:32 by the letter?

Is it your claim that those affirming "the Baptist Confession of Faith" about all TEN of the TEN commandments included in Eden and included in the Law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant -- are "SDAs" , and so also for "The Westminster Confession of Faith"?

No, I do not affirm that.

All TEN of the Ten Commandments written on the heart must have at least some meaning for you - does it not?

Yes, they do have meaning.

Now, regarding the laws that a person perceives to be in effect today, the way that they keep one of them is the way they that ought to keep all of them, imo.
When I say, "way that they keep one of them" I mean whether they keep it by letter or in principle or both.


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Additional reasons to talk about laws in addition to the ten commandments:
Deuteronomy 6:6These words, which I command you this day, shall be on your heart; 7and you shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise up.

Imo, Moses is talking about more than the ten commandments there.

And,
Matthew 5:19 Whoever shall do and teach them
(the least of the commandments) shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I take that to mean we are to teach the least of the commandments, as well as the big ones.

 

[Bob S]

Hi Bob S

Good to hear from you!

I don't think anyone here on CF follows the letters of the tithing commandments.

There may be some super observant Jewish people somewhere who come close, especially with the tithe of the grain.

People today usually think of tithing as 10% of your money income $$$,
which is not the letters of any commandment that I can think of. Maybe there is one and I can't think of it?

What's this about SDAs and shekels?

Israelites never paid their tithes with money (shekels). Money is the only way SDAs pay their modified tithes. Shekels is my way of saying money.

 

[Leaf473]

Israelites never paid their tithes with money (shekels). Money is the only way SDAs pay their modified tithes. Shekels is my way of saying money.

That's cool, I have a friend who does the same thing. If someone gets a new job, he asks if they're going to get more shekels than before.
So yes, I don't think there's anything from Genesis to Deuteronomy, or in the entire Old testament, that talks about paying 10% of your shekels.
I think it's fine if people want to do that. If they want to cite verses like Leviticus 27:32 or Leviticus 27:30, that's fine too as long as they realize they are appealing to the principle of the commandment, not the letter.
Peace, my man!

 

[Leaf473]

@BobRyan

Hi Bob,

I wanted to try the lay this out nice and clean:

I have asked whether you keep Leviticus 27:32 by the letter.

I believe you had asked what the point is of talking about laws in addition to the 10 commandments if I disagree with your approach to the 10 commandments.

If you regard Leviticus 27:32 as one of God's moral commandments,

and if you do not keep that commandment by the letter,

then it follows that we do not necessarily keep a moral commandment by the letter.

That conclusion then relates to our discussion of the ten commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan

Hi Bob,

I wanted to try the lay this out nice and clean:

I have asked whether you keep Leviticus 27:32 by the letter.

I have asked for your view of the TEN Commandments -- the topic of this thread.

I believe you had asked what the point is of talking about laws in addition to the 10 commandments if I disagree with your approach to the 10 commandments.

I did not say anything about "my approach to the TEN" - I simply asked you about what the Bible said about them. At one time you said they are done away with at the cross... then you changed to they are still in effect but expanded by Christ to be even more expansive except somehow the Sabbath was downsized (or something like that

===============

why are you so often opposing one of the Ten Commandments in your posts?

And then go from there to opposing all TEN?

After having some time to look at Hebrews with some good Bible study tools, I think the best interpretation of what is being take away is the law.

Paul says - the Law of God that remains includes the TEN "having honor your father and mother and the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

 

[Leaf473]

I have asked for your view of the TEN Commandments -- the topic of this thread.



I did not say anything about "my approach to the TEN" - I simply asked you about what the Bible said about them. At one time you said they are done away with at the cross... then you changed to they are still in effect but expanded by Christ to be even more expansive except somehow the Sabbath was downsized (or something like that

===============

why are you so often opposing one of the Ten Commandments in your posts?

And then go from there to opposing all TEN?



Paul says - the Law of God that remains includes the TEN "having honor your father and mother and the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

I believe you are attempting to raise again issues that I have already responded to, Bob.

It's becoming more and more apparent to me as time goes by
that a good way to see the problems in the theology that you put forward
is to look at the details of laws outside of the ten commandments,
such as tithing laws.

Please let me know if you decide you would like to talk about the rest of God's moral laws.

Thank you for sharing your views on the ten commandments.

Peace be with you.

 

[BobRyan]

I believe you are attempting to raise again issues that I have already responded to, Bob.

It's becoming more and more apparent to me as time goes by
that a good way to see the problems in the theology that you put forward
is to look at the details of laws outside of the ten commandments, .

It is very apparent to me that the best way to see the gap in the logic you are using regarding the Law of God is to notice your response to Bible texts dealing with God's Ten Commandments. (Which is what this thread is about -- it is the topic of this thread).

 

[SabbathBlessings]

That's cool, I have a friend who does the same thing. If someone gets a new job, he asks if they're going to get more shekels than before.
So yes, I don't think there's anything from Genesis to Deuteronomy, or in the entire Old testament, that talks about paying 10% of your shekels.
I think it's fine if people want to do that. If they want to cite verses like Leviticus 27:32 or Leviticus 27:30, that's fine too as long as they realize they are appealing to the principle of the commandment, not the letter.
Peace, my man!

Hi Leaf,

What is it you do not understand about tithing? Have you read Malachi 3:8-12? I sure do not want to robe God of His tithes but God does give us free will.

 

[Leaf473]

It is very apparent to me that the best way to see the gap in the logic you are using regarding the Law of God is to notice your response to Bible texts dealing with God's Ten Commandments. (Which is what this thread is about -- it is the topic of this thread).

####################

Hi @BobRyan,

(I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this question, so if you don't want to answer or if you want to answer somewhere else, that's cool.)

A thing that often comes up when I talk to people who want to keep some portion of the Law is what laws other than the Ten commandments we are to keep today?

Like, if you start reading at the beginning of Genesis what is the first law that you come to that we are to keep today? Do you not reach any "today" laws until Exodus 20?

This is the perfect thread for that topic... thanks for bringing it up.

In Gen 4 God implies murder is a sin speaking to Cain "SIN is crouching at your door" but the law-on-stones is not given until Sinai - it was there in Eden none-the-less. And since "Sin IS transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4 we know it existed as law.

Gen 26:5 "because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

Indeed - even "the Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:8

Clean and unclean animals are mentioned in Gen 6,7,8 - but the Lev 11 text is not in the book of Genesis - the distinction was there non-the-less.

The Baptist Confession of Faith , and also the Westminster Confession of Faith admit that all TEN of the Ten commandments were in Eden - D.L. Moody, R.C.Sproul, C.H.Spurgeon all admit to this.

IN Heb 10:4-12 we find that the laws given in (defined by) animal sacrifices and ceremonial offerings ended at the the cross just as those confessions of Faith state.

We also find that the civil laws under the Theocracy ended when that theocracy ended - just as those confessions of Faith state

1 Cor 7:10 Paul says that circumcision does not matter one way or the other "but what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" and the confessions of Faith above also notice this same Bible detail that these divisions in various kinds of Law are valid and one kind continues while another ends.

Paul is questioned in Acts 21 as to whether he is telling converted Christian Jews to no-longer circumcise their children and he denies it. (Notice they do not accuse him of telling gentiles that because there never was an OT or NT command for gentiles to do that so any accusation against Paul that he was telling newly converted Christian gentiles not to circumcise their children would be hollow.)

When I first came on this thread, I asked if this was the right place to talk about specific laws other than the ten commandments. You replied that Yes, it was.

If you didn't understand what I was asking, and actually don't want to discuss that subject, that's okay. We can stop.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf,

What is it you do not understand about tithing? Have you read Malachi 3:8-12? I sure do not want to robe God of His tithes but God does give us free will.

Well hello, SabbathBlessings,

Long time no hear!

Yes, I have read the prophet Malachi. No, I don't want to violate what God says through him.

Last time you and I spoke on this thread, I had asked you whether Lev 27:30 is on your list of God's eternal laws.

This is the last I heard from you

It's the principle of tithing. Everything we have is because of God, when we we pay tithe its not really giving, its paying back.

So what I don't understand in our conversation about tithing
is whether Lev 27:30 is on your list of God's eternal laws or not.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well hello, SabbathBlessings,

Long time no hear!

Yes, I have read the prophet Malachi. No, I don't want to violate what God says through him.

Last time you and I spoke on this thread, I had asked you whether Lev 27:30 is on your list of God's eternal laws.

This is the last I heard from you


So what I don't understand in our conversation about tithing
is whether Lev 27:30 is on your list of God's eternal laws or not.

Yes as I mentioned previously, there is no where in the Bible that shows we should stop tithing so yes, it is included. Hope this helps.

 

[Danthemailman]

Hi Leaf,

What is it you do not understand about tithing? Have you read Malachi 3:8-12? I sure do not want to robe God of His tithes but God does give us free will.

Malachi 3:8 - “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. The whole nation of Israel. Malachi is written to the Israelites under the old covenant.

In 2 Corinthians 9:5-7, we read: Therefore I thought it necessary to exhort the brethren to go to you ahead of time, and prepare your generous gift beforehand, which you had previously promised, that it may be ready as a matter of generosity and not as a grudging obligation. But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.

I don't see a "specific percentage" commanded anywhere for Christians to give "under the new covenant," but I certainly believe in giving and not just to our church. I also believe that everything we own belongs to God.