Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

[Leaf473]

I did not reply with "breaking the commandment itself but somehow keeping the spirit of it".

And neither does Christ in Matt 5.

That is a key detail.

That's correct. However, the examples that you gave and the supporting scriptures that you listed talk about the principle of the commandment.

If you can think of a way today that a person would break the letter of that commandment, please post it.

******************************

But what I'm really interested in talking about is your list of laws that you believe are active today. And sure, we can say the list of laws that you believe are active today and that we are to keep the letter of as well as the principle.

To make this as clear and easy as possible, how about just posting the scripture references?

It would look something like this:

####################
Genesis 9:4
Exodus 20:3-17
Leviticus 11
Leviticus 27:32
####################

Those are just some scriptures that I remember from things we talked about in the past. Of course, you would add and subtract to make it your list. Or if there's a list you agree with that is already on the internet, you can just post the link.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
I did not reply with "breaking the commandment itself but somehow keeping the spirit of it".

And neither does Christ in Matt 5.

That is a key detail.

That's correct.

I am glad we agree on something ... the Letter of the law is not violated by the spirit of the Law.

Not hating someone is wayyy slanted toward obedience as compared to "anything you want just don't murder them"

If you can think of a way today that a person would break the letter of that commandment, please post it.

Well in the case of "do not murder" they could not only be angry and hate the person they could murder him.

I did not think this would be the questionable part.

 

[BobRyan]

But what I'm really interested in talking about is your list of laws that you believe are active today. .

There are the ones in the Bible where you seem to be struggling at the moment

"Do not take God's name in vain " Ex 20:7
"Do not have other gods before Me" Ex 20

The TEN having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - included in the Law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34 where obviously the TEN were known to Jeremiah and his readers as being very prominent in the Law of God.

Bible details so easy to get that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations admit to them.

Yet here is the very point where you say you are struggling. So we have already found that part of scripture where you are taking issue.

That happened about 140 posts ago -- right? Somewhere around post 128
Jul 8, 2021 #128

The point was first stated on post #11 -- Mar 2, 2021 #11

So then page 1 ... post 11 looks like this --

That is also true of the Command of God "Do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:7
And it is also true of the Command of God "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:1-2, Ex 20:12

But has never been justification for taking God's name in vain or dishonoring parents.

Context... you have to love it.

========= I think I may know what the problem is here - lets take time to read one of the Ten commandments to avoid confusion ===========

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 For six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord (YHWH) your God; on it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male slave or your female slave, or your cattle, or your resident who stays with you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and everything that is in them, and He rested on the seventh day; for that reason the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So hmmm.. what does that mean?

Lev 23:3
3 ‘For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day there is the Sabbath of complete rest, a holy convocation. You shall not do any work; it is the Sabbath to the Lord in all your dwellings.

Is 58:13
“If, because of the Sabbath, you restrain your foot
From doing as you wish on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a pleasure, and the holy day of the Lord honorable,
And honor it, desisting from your own ways,
From seeking your own pleasure
And speaking your own word,

Is 66:23 for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth ... "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to bow down"

Is 56:6-7
8 “Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord,
To attend to His service and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps the Sabbath so as not to profane it,
And holds firmly to My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar;
For My house will be called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”

Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was made for mankind"

Gen 2:1-3 And so the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their heavenly lights. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because on it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

 

[Leaf473]

I am glad we agree on something ... the Letter of the law is not violated by the spirit of the Law.

What I was agreeing to was this:
"I did not reply with "breaking the commandment itself but somehow keeping the spirit of it". And neither does Christ in Matt 5."

That's correct, you did not reply with that phrase. And Christ doesn't use that phrase, either.

However, I think a lot of people who usually agree with you do see a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit or principle of it.

That's what I took away from what @SabbathBlessings said when I asked her about Lev 27:30. Something like "It's the principle of tithing", which I took to mean things like giving 10% of your paycheck to the church, while the actual letter of the law is about 10% of the produce of your fields.

Similar situation with putting fringes on our clothes. It's the principle we adhere to, not the letters.

(Please jump in and correct me if I misunderstood, SabbathBlessings!)

Not hating someone is wayyy slanted toward obedience as compared to "anything you want just don't murder them"

Well in the case of "do not murder" they could not only be angry and hate the person they could murder him.

I did not think this would be the questionable part.

I believe we were talking about the second commandment. Would you like to switch to the sixth?

Or did you want to talk about the idea of keeping both the letter and the principle of the commandments?
If so, please say where all those commandments active today are found.

For example:
####################
Genesis 9:4
Exodus 20:3-17
Leviticus 11
Leviticus 27:32
####################
Is that list complete?

 

[BobRyan]

Not hating someone is wayyy slanted toward obedience as compared to "anything you want just don't murder them"

If you can think of a way today that a person would break the letter of that commandment, please post it.

Well in the case of "do not murder" they could not only be angry and hate the person they could murder him.

I did not think this would be the questionable part.

I believe we were talking about the second commandment. Would you like to switch to the sixth?

What difference does it make - the principle is the same. Keeping the spirit of the Law never allows one to break the letter.

Which gets us back to the easy part of the discussion from post #11 where you say you are having the difficulty.

 

[Leaf473]

There are the ones in the Bible where you seem to be struggling at the moment

"Do not take God's name in vain " Ex 20:7
"Do not have other gods before Me" Ex 20

The TEN having "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 - included in the Law of God written on the heart under the NEW Covenant Jer 31:31-34...

I understand that in your view I'm struggling. I certainly don't see it that way.

...where obviously the TEN were known to Jeremiah and his readers as being very prominent in the Law of God.

Yes, Jeremiah and his contemporaries were familiar with the ten commandments being prominent in the law of God, but also a whole lot of other commandments which had to be kept just as much.

If you believe that Jeremiah was saying that actual letters of commandments are written on our heart in the new covenant, then please copy those letters and post them here, if you wish.

Bible details so easy to get that Bible scholars in almost all Christian denominations admit to them.

The vast majority of those same scholars also say that a special assembly on the seventh day isn't critical. The one who builds their position on the consensus of Bible scholars may also find that position eroded away by those same scholars.

Yet here is the very point where you say you are struggling.

I don't say that I'm struggling, I believe it is you who say that I am struggling. And I can understand that it looks that way from your perspective.

So we have already found that part of scripture where you are taking issue.

What I am taking issue with is your interpretation of the scriptures.

That happened about 140 posts ago -- right? Somewhere around post 128
Jul 8, 2021 #128

The point was first stated on post #11 -- Mar 2, 2021 #11

So then page 1 ... post 11 looks like this --

What I have always been interested in talking about since I started on this thread is if you have a complete list and if so if you are willing to post it.

I was willing to talk about other things in the interim as a way of clarifying what the list would be. For example, would we call it the list of moral laws? It turns out that active laws is the term you suggested.

But the answer to the questions so far is No. If you would like to correct that, please do so.

It doesn't really further the discussion that I'm interested in, imo, to continually bring up the 10. That's because it is how one keeps the rest of the active laws that affects how one keeps the 10, again imo.

 

[BobRyan]

I understand that in your view I'm struggling. I certainly don't see it that way.

Fine but you reject Post #11 when it comes to accepting God's Commandments written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34 New Covenant. "adding more to be rejected" is kind of pointless -- is it not?

If the easy part is a problem - why keep going? What is the point?

Yes, Jeremiah and his contemporaries were familiar with the ten commandments being prominent in the law of God,

So they would know those commandments were included in the term "Write my laws on their heart". This is called "exegesis". It appears that agree that the text of Jer 31:31-34 is claiming that under the New Covenant the Ten Commandments are included in that Law written on the heart.

Which looks like a problem for your current position. How do you solve that??

If you believe that Jeremiah was saying that actual letters of commandments are written

It is possible that you agree that "do not take God's name in vain" is still one of God's commandments and Christians should not do it -- without also claiming that surgical review of heart tissue will reveal that the Hebrew lettering for that commandment is etched in heart muscle.

I am not sure how your confusion on this subject gets to such an odd point of having to review that part. As far as I know - no Christian denominations on planet Earth are remotely confused on that point when they admit that the Law of God is written on the heart under the Jer 31:31-34 and that includes easy and obvious ones like "do not murder" and "do not take God's name in vain".

 

[BobRyan]

The vast majority of those same scholars also say that a special assembly on the seventh day isn't critical.

And on only "one side" of the debate. The trivial exercise of discovering/proving that "one side differs with the opposing side on at least one point" is not the great example of objectivity you may have at first supposed. By contrast my argument for "easy and objective Bible details" - is that the Bible scholars on BOTH sides admit to the most basic, easy, and obvious Bible detail I keep pointing out.

You need to make an objective argument for it to be compelling. Your practice of sticking with subjective forms of the argument merely proves "people have the ability to differ". A point that was never in dispute on this thread.

I will grant you that you may have seen one or two others fall into the problem of thinking that if "Two opposing sides differ on even one detail then all the details where they do agree must not exist". But that is not a compelling form of logic.

 

[BobRyan]

It doesn't really further the discussion that I'm interested in, imo, to continually bring up the 10. That's because it is how one keeps the rest of the active laws that affects how one keeps the 10, again imo.

You have not proven that at all. You begin by objecting to the ten even though you admit they are included in the Law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant.(As I point out here - #267

You need a solution for your argument at that point.

 

[BobRyan]

I was willing to talk about other things in the interim as a way of clarifying what the list would be. For example, would we call it the list of moral laws? It turns out that active laws is the term you suggested.

I think I have been using the term "moral law" since page 1 on this thread - starting with this in the OP

BobRyan said: ↑
As you have noted - a great many Christian denominations affirm all Ten of the Ten commandments as being included in the moral law of God written on the heart under the New Covenant. Taking that POV for a moment - then it means one cannot use Gal 3 to obliterate the command to "not take God's name in vain" or the Sabbath commandment.

 

[michael21]

.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
What difference does it make - the principle is the same. Keeping the spirit of the Law never allows one to break the letter.

Moses told the people it would not be too difficult for them to obey the law, but Paul said the letter kills.

My point was that we have no example where the spirit of the Law (for example the Law regarding the command to not take God's name in vain") is complied with while still actually breaking the Commandment by taking God's name in vain in real life.

The spirit of the Law does not throw the Word of God under a bus

 

[michael21]

However, I think a lot of people who usually agree with you do see a difference between the letter of the law and the spirit or principle of it.

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess. Deut 30: 11-16

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!

Yes, I would say there is a difference between the Spirit of the law and the letter of the law. The former is generally living your life according to what is written in the law for that is how you want to live, but though you do this, you will not follow the law perfectly in your humanity. The letter of the law requires perfect obedience, something beyond man to do. Hence Moses speaks of the Spirit of the law and Paul the letter

 

[BobRyan]

The letter of the law requires perfect obedience, something beyond man to do. Hence Moses speaks of the Spirit of the law and Paul the letter

If you read page one of this thread you will see that the discussion is not about whether a lost person can keep the Law and be sinless... the discussion is about the Jer 31:31-34 claim that under the New Covenant the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers to include the Ten Commandments - is written on heart and mind.

 

[michael21]

Christians who live their lives believing any sin/any infringement of the law can send them to hell are living under the letter of the law

If you read page one of this thread you will see that the discussion is not about whether a lost person can keep the Law and be sinless... the discussion is about the Jer 31:31-34 claim that under the New Covenant the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers to include the Ten Commandments - is written on heart and mind.

Well apparantly you cannot believe God made a fullproof covenant, it must have holes in it, for you believe people can have the law in their most inward parts, in their hearts and minds but not recognise it, they may well have no consciousness of sin concerning it

 

[BobRyan]

Jer 31:31-34 says God writes His Law on the heart and mind under the one and only "New Covenant" - quoted verbatim in the New Testament in Heb 8:6-12

And all Bible scholars admit that God's Commandments - His Ten Commandments are included in the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

Paul says this is the Unit of Law - still binding on the saints that as "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

Well apparantly you cannot believe God made a fullproof covenant, it must have holes in it,

Nope - I believe those scriptures tell the truth.

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

John 3:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”

you believe people can have the law in their most inward parts, in their hearts and minds but not recognise it,

I believe the Bible is true... I can't ignore texts just because someone else wants to judge other people about what they do or do not know.

 

[michael21]

Jer 31:31-34 says God writes His Law on the heart and mind under the one and only "New Covenant" - quoted verbatim in the New Testament in Heb 8:6-12

And all Bible scholars admit that God's Commandments - His Ten Commandments are included in the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

Paul says this is the Unit of Law - still binding on the saints that as "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2



Nope - I believe those scriptures tell the truth.

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

John 3:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”



I believe the Bible is true... I can't ignore texts just because someone else wants to judge other people about what they do or do not know.

A Jewish christian said. ''You can understand the quran simply by reading the letter of it, the bible was not meant to be understood that way. Hence your problem.
Yes, God will write the law in the heart and mind of those under the new covenant. You seem unsure(from what I have seen you wrote) whether it really is only those under the covenant that have the law in their hearts. Please include verse 12 in your quote:

and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Do Christians live under the law? Those who live under the law have righteousness of obeying it obviously

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.

Thanks for quoting the above, it confirms people know what the law is placed in their hearts and minds. For they show the requirements of the law(not some of it) are written on their hearts.

So its not about wanting to judge others, but an assurity God’s covenant is full proof and working as it was intended to

You only get a saviour from sin because the law is in your heart and mind(note the order the two things are written). God did not make a covenant whereby people would not know much of the law placed in their hearts and minds/being conscious of it, thereby giving them an excuse for sin. It’s a pity you cannot grasp much of this
BTW
You have read Jesus words in Matthew7:2 haven't you?
The measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you.
Only you wrote that Jesus words in old and new testement are law, which obviously includes all of Jesus commands in the Gospels. And you insist the law/ten commandments must be obeyed if you want to attain to heaven, and the bible tells us that the ten commandments is the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. And you agree sin is the transgression of the law. And James2:10 states if you break one law you break them all.
Please ponder on this. Eternal security is far more important than debating on websites such as these

 

[michael21]

Jer 31:31-34 says God writes His Law on the heart and mind under the one and only "New Covenant" - quoted verbatim in the New Testament in Heb 8:6-12

And all Bible scholars admit that God's Commandments - His Ten Commandments are included in the Law of God known to Jeremiah and his readers.

Paul says this is the Unit of Law - still binding on the saints that as "honor your father and mother as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2



Nope - I believe those scriptures tell the truth.

Rom 2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will his uncircumcision not be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a violator of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from people, but from God.

John 3:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it is coming from and where it is going; so is everyone who has been born of the Spirit.”



I believe the Bible is true... I can't ignore texts just because someone else wants to judge other people about what they do or do not know.

BTW
You didn't respond to all the following, you only asked if Jesus said the first one, I will give you the bible reference again. As you believe Jesus words are law, and sin is the transgression of the law, why have you felt reluctant to confirm it would be sin in your view not to obey the following:


Therefore, if you invite friends, relatives, neighbours home for a meal, rather than the poor, blind, lame and beggars you have committed sin? Luke 14:12-14
If you have ever so much as hinted to anyone when you have fasted you have committed sin?
If someone stole something of yours, you would gladly give them more besides what they stole with nothing but love in your heart for them, if you would not you have committed sin?
If anyone asked to lend from you, you would gladly lend to them without ever expecting anything back, if not you have sinned?
And if you do not, really love people from your heart who may be unkind to you, lie about you or persecute you, you have committed sin?

1Cor7:19 applies to everyone, yes?

 

[michael21]

The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
Matthew23:2&3

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Bob,

A few logistical issues with your post 265 above:

It contains reposts of things I had just responded to. Are you aware that you are doing this? Are you doing it on purpose?

This quote:
"I believe we were talking about the second commandment. Would you like to switch to the sixth?"
is attributed to you, when in fact it is a quote of me.

********************************************************************************* (Now on to the substance of your post.)

What difference does it make - the principle is the same.

It makes a difference if one asserts that using “Lord God Almighty” improperly in a prayer is breaking the letter of the second commandment.

Keeping the spirit of the Law never allows one to break the letter.

Which leads us to the question of
Do you have a list of the laws of which you feel we are to keep the letter today?

Which gets us back to the easy part of the discussion from post #11 where you say you are having the difficulty.

That is a mischaracterization. It is you saying I am having difficulty, not me.

Peace, my man!

What I have been interested in discussing all along are questions like,
Is the following a complete list of the laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy that you believe are active today?
####################
Genesis 9:4
Exodus 20:3-17
Leviticus 11
Leviticus 27:32
####################