Clarifying the Debate "basics" on Sabbath and the TEN Commandments

[SabbathBlessings]

Cool! Then we have:


The Ten Commandments

Eat only clean foods

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Paying 10% back to God on our increase.
Now, this last one, is there a scripture reference for that in Genesis to Deuteronomy?

Genesis 14:And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.


Genesis 28: 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21 so that I come back to my father’s house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God. 22 And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”

Lev. 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

 

[Leaf473]

Genesis 14:And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.


Genesis 28: 20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21 so that I come back to my father’s house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God. 22 And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God’s house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You.”

Lev. 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

Thanks!
Now, this passage:
Genesis 14:And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

what is the actual commandment being given here?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Thanks!
Now, this passage:
Genesis 14:And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

what is the actual commandment being given here?

It’s when title was introduced in the Bible. It’s more the principle and tithing is expanded on in other verses.

 

[Leaf473]

It’s when title was introduced in the Bible. It’s more the principle and tithing is expanded on in other verses.

Okay, then the list so far:

The Ten Commandments

Eat only clean foods

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Lev. 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

Anything else?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Okay, then the list so far:

The Ten Commandments

Eat only clean foods

You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your might.

You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

Lev. 27:32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

Anything else?

What do you think of the list? Do you think there is anything missing?

 

[BobRyan]

After having some time to look at Hebrews with some good Bible study tools, I think the best interpretation of what is being take away is the law.

That text is specifically repeating the bit about "sacrifice and offerings"

But if you want to insert your own idea of "And also the command to not take God's name in vain is taken away" then that is your own choice.

I will stick with the actual text instead.

Heb 10

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering, But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book) To do Your will, O God.’”​

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

"What" is being taken away is not even remotely unclear/vague there

=====================

It is very easy to see how the text DOES agree with the various Christian denominations on planet earth that also see clearly that it is animal sacrifices being removed there and NOT the command against "taking God's name in vain".

But if you are determined to conflate the two -- do as you wish.

 

[BobRyan]

Genesis 14:And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all....

Genesis 14:And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

what is the actual commandment being given here?

What difference does it make?

Once you conflate the removal of animal sacrifices with "Do not take God's name in vain" to take them both away in Heb 10:4-11 every other discussion point is pretty much over -- is it not??

I don't see any way around that "dead end" for your list.

 

[Leaf473]

What do you think of the list? Do you think there is anything missing?

Well, since it's the list of what you believe are God's eternal commandments, it's up to you to say if it's complete or not.

If you're asking for my opinion so far, I can't see the reasoning behind including Lev 27:32 but not
Lev 27:30 All the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the Lord's. It is holy to the Lord.

 

[Leaf473]

That text is specifically repeating the bit about "sacrifice and offerings"

But if you want to insert your own idea of "And also the command to not take God's name in vain is taken away" then that is your own choice.

I will stick with the actual text instead.

Heb 10

4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,

“You have not desired sacrifice and offering, But You have prepared a body for Me;
6 You have not taken pleasure in whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(It is written of Me in the scroll of the book) To do Your will, O God.’”​

8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and offerings for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will, we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all time.

"What" is being taken away is not even remotely unclear/vague there

=====================

It is very easy to see how the text DOES agree with the various Christian denominations on planet earth that also see clearly that it is animal sacrifices being removed there and NOT the command against "taking God's name in vain".

But if you are determined to conflate the two -- do as you wish.

If the theologians who wrote the Westminster Confession were here on this thread, I'd be glad to ask them their reasoning.

To take just one example from the commentaries on biblehub.com ,
"For the law having a shadow - That is, the whole of the Mosaic economy was a shadow; for so the word "Law" is often used."
Hebrews 10 Barnes' Notes

It sounds like he's saying the whole law was a shadow, not just the sacrifices.

The big picture, imo, if a person wants to base their beliefs on a consensus of Christian theologians, that's cool. But that same consensus also says that Seventh day worship isn't required.

Those who take up the sword will die by the sword.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Well, since it's the list of what you believe are God's eternal commandments, it's up to you to say if it's complete or not.

If you're asking for my opinion so far, I can't see the reasoning behind including Lev 27:32 but not
Lev 27:30 All the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the Lord's. It is holy to the Lord.

It's the principle of tithing. Everything we have is because of God, when we we pay tithe its not really giving, its paying back.

 

[Leaf473]

What difference does it make?

I think it makes a huge difference. Shall we go by the general concepts in the law, or by what is actually written?

I'm fine going with general concepts. Are you OK with that, too?

Once you conflate the removal of animal sacrifices with "Do not take God's name in vain" to take them both away in Heb 10:4-11 every other discussion point is pretty much over -- is it not??

I don't see any way around that "dead end" for your list.

If you don't want to discuss the subject with me anymore, that's fine. I think @SabbathBlessings and I are making good progress in putting together her list here. If you would like to join in, Cool!

 

[Leaf473]

It's the principle of tithing. Everything we have is because of God, when we we pay tithe its not really giving, its paying back.

When we deal with with the eternal laws of God, do we just deal with the principles, then?

If so, I'm cool with that! If that's the case, I don't think there's any real disagreement between us, them
Sure, those principles might play out differently in daily practices for each of us. But the principles given in God's law, I'm fully on board with every one of those! And I'm sure you are, too

 

[BobRyan]

Genesis 14:And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all....

Genesis 14:And blessed be God Most High,
Who has delivered your enemies into your hand.”
And he gave him a tithe of all.

what is the actual commandment being given here?

What difference does it make?

Once you conflate the removal of animal sacrifices with "Do not take God's name in vain" to take them both away in Heb 10:4-11 every other discussion point is pretty much over -- is it not??

I don't see any way around that "dead end" for your list.

I think it makes a huge difference. Shall we go by the general concepts in the law, or by what is actually written?

We see "What is actually written" in Heb 10:4-12 being animal 'Sacrifice and offering" taken away... and you just "inserted" into that text "and so also the command not to take God's name in vain -- taken away" in your "all of the Law - not just animal sacrifices" comments.

Once that easy chapter is messed up - what is the "easier example" that we could hope for??

I think @SabbathBlessings and I are making good progress in putting together her list here.

In theory she will run into that same dead end at some point.

 

[Leaf473]

What difference does it make?

Once you conflate the removal of animal sacrifices with "Do not take God's name in vain" to take them both away in Heb 10:4-11 every other discussion point is pretty much over -- is it not??

I don't see any way around that "dead end" for your list.



We see "What is actually written" in Heb 10:4-12 being animal 'Sacrifice and offering" taken away... and you just "inserted" into that text "and so also the command not to take God's name in vain -- taken away" in your "all of the Law - not just animal sacrifices" comments.

Once that easy chapter is messed up - what is the "easier example" that we could hope for??

It sounds like what is actually written is what you want to focus on. In that case, do you have a list of the Active commandments as they are actually written?

In theory she will run into that same dead end at some point.

I think what dead ends we run into, if any, will depend on whether we go with what is actually written or the principles
(or in the case of you and me, the general concepts)
in the law.

 

[BobRyan]

It sounds like what is actually written is what you want to focus on. In that case, do you have a list of the Active commandments as they are actually written?

Well there is that "one" that we are currently stuck on "do not take God's name in vain" which you seem to think ended along with "do not murder" --- when scripture actually says animal sacrifices ended at the cross in Heb 10:4-12.

You have constructed a house-of-cards argument where as soon as you see Heb 10:4-12 ending something like animal sacrifice your entire argument falls apart because it is pretty obvious to everyone (even you) that animal sacrifices ended - and it is also obvious to everyone that the 1 John 3:4 statement saying that STILL in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the" - leaves you stuck with some law still applicable to mankind and some not. Something that house of cards model does not survive.

You attempted the idea that if animal sacrifices have ended then so did the command against taking God's name in vain - but you have to know that no one is taking that idea seriously on this or any thread at all here. You have created an impasse since all other discussions on remaining laws must then lead to that same dead end.

 

[Leaf473]

Well there is that "one" that we are currently stuck on "do not take God's name in vain" which you seem to think ended along with "do not murder" --- when scripture actually says animal sacrifices ended at the cross in Heb 10:4-12.

You have constructed a house-of-cards argument where as soon as you see Heb 10:4-12 ending something like animal sacrifice your entire argument falls apart because it is pretty obvious to everyone (even you) that animal sacrifices ended - and it is also obvious to everyone that the 1 John 3:4 statement saying that STILL in the NT "SIN IS transgression of the" - leaves you stuck with some law still applicable to mankind and some not. Something that house of cards model does not survive.

You attempted the idea that if animal sacrifices have ended then so did the command against taking God's name in vain - but you have to know that no one is taking that idea seriously on this or any thread at all here. You have created an impasse since all other discussions on remaining laws must then lead to that same dead end.

I believe you misunderstood much of what I was saying.

...leaves you stuck with some law still applicable to mankind and some not.

What I came on the thread to learn was whether or not you were able or willing to list which specific laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy you believe are still applicable to us today.

Up to this point, the answer is No, you are not.

If you would like to join in contributing to the list that @SabbathBlessings and I have been building, you are warmly invited to do so.

 

[Leaf473]

@SabbathBlessings
What's the word, my Sister in Christ? Did you still want to talk about the list? If so, is Lev 27:30 on the list of God's eternal laws?

Or did you just want to leave it at general principles of the law?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

@SabbathBlessings
What's the word, my Sister in Christ? Did you still want to talk about the list? If so, is Lev 27:30 on the list of God's eternal laws?

Or did you just want to leave it at general principles of the law?

I'm good. If you think something is missing let me know.

 

[Leaf473]

I'm good. If you think something is missing let me know.

Well, I'm unclear whether Lev 27:30 is on your the list of God's eternal laws.

It's your list, so I can't let you know if I think something is missing. I can say if I think it's reasonable in its current state or not

 

[BobRyan]

What I came on the thread to learn was whether or not you were able or willing to list which specific laws from Genesis to Deuteronomy you believe are still applicable to us today.

Which is not a problem so I start with a few easy examples and your response appears to be that you are confused about whether stopping animal sacrifices might also stop the binding obligation to "not take God's name in vain"

That is the first very very simple example of a step going along the road of coming up with a list and showing how a law is ended in the case of animal sacrifice and a law continues in the case of God's commandment to not take His name in vain.

You already agreed that the animal sacrifices end - and are no longer binding/applicable after the cross.

But then you argued that all of God's commands got deleted at the same time - including the command to not take God's name in vain.

Do you not see how that stops the bus right at the beginning of the road trip?

It's your list, so I can't let you know if I think something is missing.

When you start by deleting the command to not take God's name in vain as soon as you admit that the law for animal sacrifices has most certainly ended - how is "the list" going to help other than to point out "even more laws that you then delete" since we have already agreed that "animal sacrifices ended at the cross" to which you responded that all the entire law of God must have ended then as well.