Clarification on heterodox salvation

[Nikti]

Hi all,
I had a really discouraging conversation today with a friend of mine who is ex orthodox. It seems she's had a really bad experience with some priests and comments they've made... Her issues included that:

1) according to this priest, infants who are not baptised cannot be saved and go to hell.

2) that the heterodox go to hell

3) that when she asked him for advice he said something to the effect of " well as a priest I am the intercession for God and you" and he did not really support her when she asked about verification from scripture and tradition.

Can someone please clarify the actual Orthodox stance on these issues? I felt really bad for her, she is now evangelical and we're sharing our stories so it's really sad to see people experience this in a church I'd really really consider joining.

 

[GregConstantine]

I'm sorry, not to sound insensitive, but, did this person perhaps tried to go to a different parish? I hear Orthodox priest say and do stupid things all the time but I don't leave over it.

I can understand if a priest does something to someone, like, abuse them in some way, or hurt them in some way, that the person victimized by the priest would want to leave. But just over a few stupid comments? I'm not buying it. There's something more to the story perhaps?

People really do need to take personal responsibility for their own faith. What's going to happen when she encounters some stupid comment in her Evangelical circles? (And she will, trust me) Is she going to leave them?

 

[GregConstantine]

1) according to this priest, infants who are not baptised cannot be saved and go to hell.

Wrong, we don't know. We leave them in the mercy and grace of God

2) that the heterodox go to hell

See response to number 1

3) that when she asked him for advice he said something to the effect of " well as a priest I am the intercession for God and you" and he did not really support her when she asked about verification from scripture and tradition.

It would be helpful to know what exactly was she asking for advice, but again, she needs to take more personal responsibility for her faith. The goal of the Christian life is not warm fuzzy happy feelings but union with God and one another.

 

[seekingsolace]

I can understand if a priest does something to someone, like, abuse them in some way, or hurt them in some way, that the person victimized by the priest would want to leave. But just over a few stupid comments? I'm not buying it. There's something more to the story perhaps?

People really do need to take personal responsibility for their own faith. What's going to happen when she encounters some stupid comment in her Evangelical circles? (And she will, trust me) Is she going to leave them?

You expect the Priest or leading authority to give scripture for edification of believers. I can understand why she would feel deterred by a man in that position acting in such a manner. Of course she should also consider joining another church and seeking the advice withheld elsewhere; then making her decision.

 

[GregConstantine]

If you leave the Church you commit apostasy. That is not something done lightly. She could have attended another Orthodox parish, but not leave the Church completely.

You are right about the priest, but they are also human and sin and make mistakes. And so do each and everyone of us. We are no better than our brother or sister. Part of taking responsibility for your faith is realizing that and accepting that.

 

[Nikti]

Yeah I thought that it sounded ridiculous, I did tell her that it's not actually what the church says, and that there is no dogmatic rule about the heterodox. She says she has encountered this at many churches and that her other issue was the ethno-centric focus of those churches.

I agree with you Greg, apostasy is a massive move. I think for her it was a series of unfortunate events and with the priests' shes encountered, they did not help her situation.

She also couldn't reconcile the "lack" of biblical backing for traditions such as icons, calling the priest father in light of Matt 23:9, and other typical evangelical objections.

I tried to do my best with her and gave her a run through of why I favor the Orthodox church ie; the historicity, apostolic succession, ecumenical councils and the articulation of core christian doctrines that came out of the church, the bible included, etc. She agrees with all that, but still stumbles with a subconscious assumption of sola scriptura on everything like icons and exodus 35, etc.

Ironically however, she is personally acquainted with a Pentecostal mega church that I just happen to be completely averse to which is the Assemblies of God, Australian Branch 'Hillsong'. When I brought up the fact that the first founder was a repeated child sex abuser and that his son the current pastor was aware at a time but did not report it to the authorities which instigated a Royal Commission, there was a contradiction in her standard... but SOMEHOW she managed to argue that Jesus Christ forgives people and that we cant hold sin against others.... that people change and well everybody can be their own priest or something.

I think the issue with this post-reformation mode of thinking is this inherent inconsistency. They hold sola scriptura and use the bible against me out of context in this holier than thou way. And with this particular friend, she has more information about evangelical/reformation theology on the internet and in our country (Australia), Orthodox churches are not exactly as prevalent here, and I can agree with some of her observations on a whole (perception of ethnocentrism, lack of information, the fact that some laity do not behave as they should, or out of line priests) its just a really unfortunate situation, but essentially, the theology she cannot argue with.

 

[GregConstantine]

I'm sorry to hear she went over to Hillsong. We have many of the same problems with Orthodoxy in the States too. We are probably slightly more numerous, simply because our population is more numerous than Australia. Nonetheless, the problems are essentially the same.

Hillsong is well known here amongst U.S. Evangelicals, mostly for their praise and worship songs. I don't think they have any substantial congregations here.

They do engage in some heretical beliefs and can be quite controlling of their members sometimes.

 

[GregConstantine]

"but SOMEHOW she managed to argue that Jesus Christ forgives people and that we cant hold sin against others.... that people change and well everybody can be their own priest or something."

Interesting that she is willing to extend this grace to the founder of Hillsong, but doesn't seem to be willing to do so to that priest.

 

[Nikti]

Exactly Greg, i tried to point that out to her. But I think you're right there are deeper issues than just a priest, a mistrust of traditions as 'man-made', and a negative experience, etc. Her frame of mind is basically full blown evangelical now. Apparently her immediate family (mother and sisters) also left the church =/

While I definitely think that we need to be responsible for our faith and what church we belong to, obviously personal experience will have a massive impact as well. If her experience of orthodox laity and clergy is generally unwelcoming and unbiblical in their behaviour then obviously that's going to have a massive effect on her. It's just really sad.

I also have another friend who was born catholic and married a greek orthodox man who physically abused her to the point where she almost committed suicide, and lost her faith completely until she started watching a christian evangelical channel and basically she credits evangelical christianity with essentially saving her life.

I have a random question, I do hope not to cause unnecessary offence, its just a wandering thought... but do you think that maybe where a person or the church around them is not in a spiritual position to help people, God may lead them somewhere where, though they may not experience the fullness of the faith in the church, they receive some healing? It's just a thought, because when I became a christian again, my ex-church really helped me get back my faith, but for other reasons I eventually did not see this church as the fulfillment of Christ's promise to the church, in terms of its doctrinal consistency and their mode of worship... I always credit God for bringing me out of my horrendous past situation and atheism I was living, and He led me to that church, and subsequently I'm being led out of it. I feel like that period was really necessary, but upon deeper reflection I always knew that there was something much deeper out there.. I don't know just wondering what your thoughts are on this?

 

[GregConstantine]

Nothing happens outside the will of God, and it would be presumptuous to say one way or the other, as we would be speculating about something outside of what has been revealed to us. However, full healing for the soul and body cannot happen outside of the Church. God desires all to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth, which is Himself. If someone sincerely seeks after God, he/she will wind up one way or another in His Church.

I can say for myself that, I wouldn't be Orthodox today if it wasn't for certain people within the Evangelical circles I was in. So who knows? We can certainly pray for her and if you maintain regular contact with her, be the best example of a Christian you can to her. Be her friend and love and support her, but also be honest with her. One of the hallmarks of a great friendship is honesty.

 

[ArmyMatt]

1) according to this priest, infants who are not baptised cannot be saved and go to hell.

2) that the heterodox go to hell
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3) that when she asked him for advice he said something to the effect of " well as a priest I am the intercession for God and you" and he did not really support her when she asked about verification from scripture and tradition.

sounds like a schismatic poserdox than anything. even the more conservative Orthodox (not all, sadly) are not that extreme.

 

[Nikti]

Hmmm... What would you guys suggest.... I'm thinking of writing a letter to someone in the church here in Australia, maybe a priest or someone at the seminary to perhaps clarify, briefly the importance of tradition and what the Orthodox position on salvation is. It really saddens me to see this girl have such a bad experience and I think a correspondence from a position of authority may have an impact.

Should I bother? Is the matter too 'trivial' or local to be addressed by letter/email correspondence?

I know that she's sincere since she was bothered enough to read a copy of St John of Damascus work on Holy images that I sent to her. I think that her biggest issue is that she doesn't see the church and it's members as embodying the gospel, so that's why I'm thinking maybe a letter or something from a member?

 

[GregConstantine]

I suppose, but my problem with this is that this info is readily available. She could have simply searched online and found it. I don't know if she did or not, but it sounds like based on your description, she didn't.

This is another example of taking personal responsibility for what you know and for the education of your own faith. Instead it seems like it is mostly an emotional decision.

 

[seekingsolace]

I also have another friend who was born catholic and married a greek orthodox man who physically abused her to the point where she almost committed suicide, and lost her faith completely until she started watching a christian evangelical channel and basically she credits evangelical christianity with essentially saving her life.

I have a random question, I do hope not to cause unnecessary offence, its just a wandering thought... but do you think that maybe where a person or the church around them is not in a spiritual position to help people, God may lead them somewhere where, though they may not experience the fullness of the faith in the church, they receive some healing? It's just a thought, because when I became a christian again, my ex-church really helped me get back my faith, but for other reasons I eventually did not see this church as the fulfillment of Christ's promise to the church, in terms of its doctrinal consistency and their mode of worship... I always credit God for bringing me out of my horrendous past situation and atheism I was living, and He led me to that church, and subsequently I'm being led out of it. I feel like that period was really necessary, but upon deeper reflection I always knew that there was something much deeper out there.. I don't know just wondering what your thoughts are on this?

That's really sad to hear about your friend; glad she found an outlet of hope.

Honestly, I think along those lines. I do feel there isn't a one size fits all - each denomination caters to the whole. Whether the person decides to be Catholic, Eastern Orthodox or Protestant, as long as they do it in good conscience following what God purposes in their heart - then I really don't think any is in error. Joining and following with doubts I feel isn't in good faith, so my thoughts are - commit, use sound judgment, and keep to Gods word. Any true believer should have the Holy Spirit testifying in their heart; all roads converging to one. God is understanding and rich in mercy, we have a pretty special advocate.

Ultimately, we will all have to provide answers at judgment day for our choices - so act in good faith.

 

[GregConstantine]

seekingsolace, we are not a denomination, but the very Church Christ founded. So yes, it does matter. Does that mean we get to judge other's salvation? No, but we do know from the testimony of Scriptures and the experience and teachings of the apostles and those who came after them that there is only one Church. For there is only one God, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, for there is only one Christ and He is not divided.

To say otherwise is implying that God is either a liar, or He rescinds or breaks His promises.

 

[seekingsolace]

seekingsolace, we are not a denomination, but the very Church Christ founded. So yes, it does matter. Does that mean we get to judge other's salvation? No, but we do know from the testimony of Scriptures and the experience and teachings of the apostles and those who came after them that there is only one Church, for there is only one God, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, for there is only one Christ and He is not divided.

To say otherwise is implying that God is either a liar, or He rescinds or breaks His promises.

No person is claiming otherwise. Do you think the millions of believers in different denominations are damned because they don't fit an ideal physical structural model? I disagree, the denominations - all of them, make the whole. You speak of not judging others salvation, yet exclude others of even being part of the Church which in the same statement you say is imperative.

The only real division is that imposed by mankind. I disagree that the body of Christ, the Church is an exclusive right to EO or RCC or otherwise. is it not the same God and Saviour we have. Or are we baptised into a different body?

I ask this as a personal question, not a statement of faith one.

 

[GregConstantine]

"No person is claiming otherwise."

You are because you are by your own implication saying that because you are allowing an idea that the Church can be divided and that the Holy Spirit is telling different people different things about God and what is salvation.

"The only real division is that imposed by mankind."

That's right! When individuals leave the Church, that's when the division takes place. But its a division away from the Church, rather than within the Church.

"Who are you worshiping?" Great question! That's exactly why we must be correct in our doctrines because doctrines are descriptions of who is God. To say something different about who God is, is to describe someone He is not. That is why we must say and believe the correct things about God.

 

[seekingsolace]

You are because you are by your own implication saying that because you are allowing an idea that the Church can be divided and that the Holy Spirit is telling different people different things about God and what is salvation.

I didn't say that about the Holy Spirit. What I implied was God leads His flock to salvation, not all paths are the same - the destination is. God has no limitations, and none of us are qualified to say those outside of a denomination lack salvation. The heavenly Church cannot be divided.

That's right! When individuals leave the Church, that's when the division takes place. But its a division away from the Church, rather than within the Church.

There is division in the Church on earth I agree. Yet the heavenly body not so.

"Who are you worshiping?" Great question! That's exactly why we must be correct in our doctrines because doctrines are descriptions of who is God. To say something different about who God is, is to describe someone He is not. That is why we must say and believe the correct things about God.

Can you label any denomination in which worship another God? I'm not speaking of fringe ones or cults. Do I think RCC are worshiping a separate God to eastern orthodox? no, nor do I think evangelists do.

I'm not trying to be controversial. It's just frustrating to see division where there should be union. One of the biggest obstacles, is that placed by the very people meant to be removing them.

 

[GregConstantine]

God leads all men to Himself, and to His one Body.

"There is division in the Church on earth I agree. Yet the heavenly body not so."

Nope, I said a division away from, not within the Church. There's a difference. You can join, or leave the Church, but you cannot divide it. Is Christ divided?

"Can you label any denomination in which worship another God?"

I can label denominations that believe heretical beliefs that can lead people away from God. For example, denominations that believe in Calvinism, or deny in some manner free will. Another example would be oneness Pentecostals who deny the Trinity. The list can go on and on and on, as there are thousands of denominations that have broken away from each other.

I refuse to make any judgments about any individual's salvation.

 

[GregConstantine]

"The heavenly Church cannot be divided."

The heavenly and earthly Church cannot be divided, they are one and the same.