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Why must we be circumcised?

  • To be saved.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • To keep the law.

    Votes: 14 100.0%

  • Total voters
    14

HARK!

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He discusses the matter of faith v obedience to the law, says that anyone who obeys the law is under a curse, Galatians 3:10

No he doesn't.

10 For whoever are of works of law are under a curse, for it written that, Accursed is everyone who is not remaining in all things written in the scroll of the law to do them."

Where is this written?

(CLV) Dt 27:26
Cursed be the one who is not carrying out all the words of this law to do them. Then all the people will say: Amen!

Interesting. Let's read on.

The very next verse in this book:

(CLV) Dt 28:1
It will come to be if you should hearken, yea hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim, to observe and to do all His instructions which I am enjoining on you today, that Yahweh your Elohim will give you supremacy over all the nations of the earth.

(CLV) Dt 28:2
And all these blessings will come on you and overtake you in case you should hearken to the voice of Yahweh your Elohim.

Paul isn't telling us anything new. Is it YHWH's law that is cursed?

(CLV) Ro 7:12
So that the law, indeed, is holy, and the precept holy and just and good.

Or is it disobedience to YHWH's law that brings the curses?

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.


(CLV) Hb 10:28
Anyone -repudiating Moses' LAW is dying without pity on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
(CLV) Hb 10:29
Of how much worse punishment, are you supposing, will he be counted worthy who tramples on the Son of God, and deems the blood of the covenant iby which he is hallowed contaminating, and outrages the spirit of grace?
 
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HARK!

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Why do you believe these are two sides? If males had to be circumcised, Paul would have said this, instead of commanding that uncircumcised believers should not become circumcised (and likewise, that circumcised should not become uncircumcised).

Because the scripture clearly states that there were two sides.

Why do you suppose Paul circumcised Timothy, following the Jerusalem Council?

(CLV) 2Pt 3:15
And be deeming the patience of our Lord salvation, according as our beloved brother Paul also writes to you, according to the wisdom |given to him,

(CLV) 2Pt 3:16
as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, in which are some things hard to apprehend, which the unlearned and unstable are twisting, as the rest of the scriptures also, to their own destruction.

We should remember that even Peter had a difficult time understanding Paul sometimes; but actions speak louder than words.
 
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HARK!

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Looking at something in context means also looking at what comes before it. There were no chapter divisions in the Greek; Gal 5:1 follows on immediately from Gal 4.

Then let's break this chapter down.

Galatians 4 (CLV)
1 Now I am saying, for as much time as the enjoyer of an allotment is a minor, in nothing is he of more consequence than a slave, being master of all, 2 but is under guardians and administrators until the time purposed by the father. 3 Thus we also, when we were minors, were enslaved under the elements of the world."

The elements of the world are not in line with the Law of YHWH.

4 Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law, " 5 that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son."

Paul makes it clear that those who are under the law, are those who have broken the law:

Paul on the Law: Romans Chapter 3

19 Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God, 20 because, by works of law, no flesh at all shall be justified in His sight, for through law is the recognition of sin."


6 Now, seeing that you are sons, God delegates the spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying "Abba! Father!" 7 So that you are no longer a slave,

To the elements of the world, sin.

but a son. Now if a son, an enjoyer also of an allotment from God, through Christ."

(CLV) 1Jn 3:9
Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.




8 But then, indeed, having no perception of God, you were slaves of those who, by nature, are not gods." 9 Yet now, knowing God, yet rather being known by God, how are you turning back again to the infirm and poor elements for which you want to slave again anew?

The elements of the world, sin, transgression of YHWH's law, Paganism.

10 Days are you scrutinizing, and months and seasons and years.

Christmas, Ishtar, SUNday worship, and the rest of the Pagan HollyDays.

11 I fear for you, lest somehow I have toiled for you feignedly." 12 Become as I, for I am even as you, brethren, I beseech you. In nothing do you injure me." 13 Now you are aware that during an infirmity of the flesh I bring the evangel to you formerly. 14 And your trial, in my flesh, you do not scorn, neither do you loathe it, but as a messenger of God you receive me, as Christ Jesus." 15 Where, then, is your happiness? For I am testifying to you, that, if possible, gouging out your eyes, you would give them to me." 16 So that I have become your enemy by being true to you! 17 They are jealous over you, not ideally, but they want to debar you that you may be jealous over them." 18 Now it is ideal for you to be jealous in the ideal always, and not only in my presence with you." 19 Little children mine, with whom I am travailing again until Christ may be formed in you!" 20 Yet I wanted to be present with you just now, and to change my voice, for I am perplexed about you." 21 Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?

Paul touched on this in Romans 6:
6 knowing this, that our old humanity was crucified together with Him, that the body of Sin may be nullified, for us by no means to be still slaving for Sin,

To be under sin is to be under the law; because what is sin?

(CLV) 1Jn 3:4
Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

(CLV) Ro 3:31
Are we, then, nullifying law through faith? May it not be coming to that! Nay, we are sustaining law.

Paul is not abolishing the law.

(CLV) Ro 2:13
For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.


22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, one out of the maid and one out of the free woman."

In covenant, of the promise.


23 But the one, indeed, out of the maid is begotten according to flesh,

Not working in faith of YHWH's promise; but of your own power.

yet the one out of the free woman through the promise:"

Free from The Law of Sin and Death through Faith in YHWH's truth.

(CLV) Ja 1:25
Now he who peers into the perfect law, that of freedom, and abides, not becoming a forgetful listener, but a doer of the work, this one will be happy in his doing.


24 which is allegorizing, for these women are two covenants; one, indeed, from mount Sinai, generating into slavery, which is Hagar."

The law was given at Sinai; but not the promise of Abraham and Sarah. There was however a promise given for keeping the law; but no one had kept it perfectly outside of faith. The fruit if Hagar is of those who keep the law outside of the relationship, no inheritance.

25 Yet Hagar is mount Sinai in Arabia; it is in line with the Jerusalem which now is, for she is in slavery with her children."

An allegory of those who were keeping the law in Jerusalem; but rejected the message of Messiah. They were under under the curse of sin when they fell short of perfection.

26 Yet the Jerusalem above is free, who is mother of us all." 27 For it is written, "Be glad, barren one, who art not bringing forth! Burst forth and implore, thou who art not travailing! For many are the children of the desolate, Rather than of her who has the husband."

Sarah's offspring represent those who are in covenant, who have faith, and act on that faith in obedience to YHWH.

28 Now you, brethren, as Isaac, are children of promise." 29 But even as then, the one generated according to flesh persecuted the one according to spirit, thus also it is now."

Those who were circumcised, not of faith, and not even truly obedient to the Torah, were persecuting those new to the faith in Galatia. They were putting pressure on new converts to be circumcised, before they had matured in their faith. Obedience to the law didn't precede Abraham's faith; therefore this teaching was against Torah. Just as with Baptism, the person who has come to faith, should be Baptized when they have come to a point in their faith; where they have a will to show the outward sign of what has taken place within.


30 But what is the scripture saying? Cast out this maid and her son, for by no means shall the son of the maid be enjoying the allotment with the son of the free woman." 31 Wherefore, brethren, we are not children of the maid, but of the free woman."
 
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Thera

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Because the scripture clearly states that there were two sides.

Why do you suppose Paul circumcised Timothy, following the Jerusalem Council?
Because his mother was a Jew, as the scriptures state. For whatever reason, Tim's mom didn't circumcise him on the eighth day, so Paul, intending to bring Timothy with him to witness to the Jews, needed to circumcise him.

Just because people circumcise their kids today doesn't mean its for their salvation, or even to keep the law. It is most often for cultural and health reasons.
 
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Strong in Him

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Two groups of people saying the same thing; Gentile believers should be circumcised. The 2nd group said that Gentiles should be circumcised AND keep the law of Moses.
That's what the debate was about - the early church disagreed with them.

The letter they wrote was to tell Gentiles to abstain from blood, the meat of strangled animals, sexual immorality and food offered to idols. Yet, a few years later, even Paul disagreed with the last one.
And there was more to the law than keeping those 4 things.
 
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Strong in Him

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You make a lot of assumptions in this assertion. Even if you happen to be correct in those assumptions; so what?

What does any of this have to do with the OP?

I'm not making assumptions, it's what the text says; read it.

I asked you why Paul had chastised the Galatians for believing another Gospel, and you said that that was a "general opening" to his letter, which was not about circumcision.
That comment was a response to yours.
 
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Strong in Him

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Yes, that was addressed to Hebrews; those rescued from slavery in Egypt and given God's law, telling them how to be holy and righteous.

I was not ever in slavery in Egypt and was not rescued and given God's word at Sinai.
I was rescued from darkness and death, by God himself, made his child and have been made righteous and clean by the Word; his Son, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
 
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HARK!

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Because his mother was a Jew, as the scriptures state. For whatever reason, Tim's mom didn't circumcise him on the eighth day, so Paul, intending to bring Timothy with him to witness to the Jews, needed to circumcise him.

Timothy's father was a Ger, a Goy, of the nations, a Gentile, as the scriptures state.

Which means that Timothy was not of the birthright of Abraham.

The birthright does not follow the Mother; as the false doctrines of Pharisaic Judaism might have us believe.

Timothy was a Ger, until he came to Messiah.
 
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Thera

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If the birthright does not (or cannot) follow the mother also, why are we given both genealogies for Jesus?

I heard a sermon once that these were not given by Paul as needful for the Gentiles - they were given by Paul as the Jews found these things so repulsive, it might threaten fellowship in the church. So the Gentile believers were asked to refrain from these things for the sake of the Jews. This is consistent with Paul's other writing, where he speaks of abstaining "for the other man's conscience".
 
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Strong in Him

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Interesting; thanks.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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...so Paul, intending to bring Timothy with him to witness to the Jews, needed to circumcise him.
Couldn't they keep their clothes on while witnessing?
 
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Strong in Him

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Timothy's father was a Ger, a Goy, of the nations, a Gentile, as the scriptures state.

Which means that Timothy was not of the birthright of Abraham.

But he had become a child of God.
Which means that it didn't matter that he wasn't of the "birthright of Abraham".

Timothy had a Jewish mother and grandmother; he just hadn't been circumcised as his father was a Greek. If the Jews still had a rule about not marrying non Jews, Timothy's mother disobeyed it. But Timothy still became a Christian.
 
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Strong in Him

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You can't study a letter that Paul wrote to one church by throwing in other Scriptures that were not written to them - they may not have been written at all at that point.

Galatians 4 follows on from Galatians 3, where Paul has been talking about firstly, faith and the observance of the law, and then the law and the promise. His argument is that they were saved by the Gospel, not the observance of the law, so why would they put themselves under slavery to the law again?

His argument here in the second half of chapter 4 is that Hagar represents the first covenant and Sarah represents the new covenant; Isaac was the son of a free woman not the son of a slave girl - and they are descended from Isaac; children of the promise.

His whole letter is about those who have preached "another Gospel", i.e the Gospel of circumcision, to them. He is angry with those who preached it, and surprised and frustrated that the Galatians, who had accepted the Christian faith and been doing so well, should have been led astray and believed these false teachers.
 
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HARK!

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If the birthright does not (or cannot) follow the mother also, why are we given both genealogies for Jesus?

This is a non sequitur.

What does any of this have to do with the sky being blue?
 
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Jipsah

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Why must we be circumcised

There are two sides to this debate. I want to say right out of the gate, that you can't come back, 2000 years later, and add a third side to this debate.
No "must" there for christians.
 
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HARK!

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Two groups of people saying the same thing; Gentile believers should be circumcised. The 2nd group said that Gentiles should be circumcised AND keep the law of Moses.
That's what the debate was about

You are incorrect. The debate was why should we be circumcised.

The dichotomy was between for being saved, or for keeping the law.

For which of these two reasons was Abraham circumcised?

the early church disagreed with them.

Which early church, the true one, or the heretical one?


These are thew basic requirements for the Ger Toshav, to share table fellowship with Israel.

Ger toshav - Wikipedia

You are correct there is more to the law than keeping these commands. these are just basics for new comers, who have not yet converted, while they must respect the Torah.


These commands came straight from the Torah; which was all of scripture at that time.

(CLV) Ac 15:20
but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood.



Leviticus 17
7 No longer shall they sacrifice their sacrifices to hairy goat-demons after whom they have been prostituting. An eonian statute shall this become for them throughout their generations. 8 To them you shall say:Any man from the house of Israel or from the sojourners who sojourn in your midst who should offer an ascent offering or a sacrifice 9 and not bring it to the opening of the tent of appointment to offer it to Yahweh, that man will be cut off from his kinsmen. 10 As for any man from the house of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who should eat any blood, I will set My face against the soul eating blood, and I will cut him off from among his people, 11 for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter. 12 Therefore I say to the sons of Israel:No soul at all of you shall eat blood; nor shall the sojourner sojourning in your midst eat blood. 13 Any man from the sons of Israel and from the sojourners sojourning in your midst who hunt a game animal or a flyer which may be eaten will pour out its blood and cover it with soil, 14 for the soul of all flesh is its blood; as its soul is it. So I said to the sons of Israel:The blood of any flesh you shall not eat, for the soul of all flesh, it is its blood. Everyone eating it shall be cut off.

You did leave out a very important condition of this letter which aligns with the requirements placed on the Ger Toshav. It's the very next verse. It's a conditional statement.

(CLV) Ac 15:21
For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues."

This was the bare minimum for the Ger Toshav to observe as they learned Torah every Shabbat.

 
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HARK!

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No "must" there for christians.

The Jerusalem Council was called by Christians, for Christians.

Christians follow Messiah's example. Messiah was obedient to the Torah. This was settled at the Jerusalem Council. You must be circumcised to keep the Torah. You must be circumcised to keep Passover.
 
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Jipsah

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. You must be circumcised to keep the Torah. You must be circumcised to keep Passover.
So? Here's what the brethren at Jerusalem said

"The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."

Look at 24 again (emphasis here mine, obviously): "24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

There ya are. No circumcision required. No keeping of the Law required. No "must". End of.
 
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HARK!

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I have read it. I've studied this letter carefully. Again, what does this have to do with the OP?
 
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HARK!

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Same difference.
 
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