Circumcision

[HARK!]

Why weren't they in the synagogue that day and the following Sabbath? Because uncircumcised gentiles were not allowed in the synagogues.
.....Paul's tutor "Gamaliel also expresses himself to the same effect, adding that the Gentiles, by their impure motive, incur the penalty of Gehenna." And, "the non-Jews only practice charity in order to make for themselves a name Gamaliel is credited with the same opinion..." c.f. Acts of the apostles 22:3
GENTILE - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Surely you don't place the opinions of JewishEncyclopedia.com over scripture?

Aside from that, nothing you quoted from that source supports your unfounded assertion.



(CLV) Ac 18:4
Now he argued in the synagogue on every sabbath and persuaded both Jews and Greeks

 

[HARK!]

These Greeks were circumcised and they were either already members of the Jewish faith or else they were in the process of converting to the Jewish faith.

Where are you getting this information?

 

[Der Alte]

Why do you assume that they had to wait?
Why do you assume that they weren't?

Let us read your proof text in-context.

Acts of the apostles 13:42-46
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.​

Vs 42. Why did the gentiles ask Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath if they were free to attend the synagogue? Why didn’t they just come back and listen in the synagogue?
The only gentiles in the synagogue were circumcised gentile proselytes Vs. 43 not uncircumcised gentiles, Christian or not.
Vs. 45 the Jews opposed, contradicted and blasphemed Paul’s teaching, i.e. the gospel. But you want to argue that uncircumcised gentiles, Christians or not, freely attended synagogues.
Because of the blasphemous opposition by the Jews Paul said that the Jews were not worthy of eternal life so he went to the gentiles.
This is an example how Christians were rejected by the Jews.

Acts of the apostles 13:50 But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts.​

 

[HARK!]

Vs 42. Why did the gentiles ask Paul to preach to them the next Sabbath if they were free to attend the synagogue? Why didn’t they just come back and listen in the synagogue?

Why would you assume that Paul would automatically be preaching at that synagogue, where the Gentiles had heard him on the following Shabbat? Notice that they did ask him to preach to them on SUNday.

Vs. 45 the Jews opposed, contradicted and blasphemed Paul’s teaching, i.e. the gospel. But you want to argue that uncircumcised gentiles, Christians or not, freely attended synagogues.
Because of the blasphemous opposition by the Jews Paul said that the Jews were not worthy of eternal life so he went to the gentiles.

You deny that Paul preached to the Jews in the Synagogue, in defiance to scripture?

 

[HARK!]

You are correct I should have specified uncircumcised gentiles.

Who Composed the Assembly?

 

[Der Alte]

Why would [1] you assume that Paul would automatically be preaching at that synagogue, where the Gentiles had heard him on the following Shabbat? [2] Notice that they did ask him to preach to them on SUNday.

I have found it very helpful to actually read a post and scripture before trying to reply to it. If you had you would not have made these three ridiculous mistakes.
1. This is how I knew Paul would be at the same synagogue

44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.​

2. The gentiles did not ask Paul to come back on SUNday!

42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.​

You deny that Paul preached to the Jews in the Synagogue, in defiance to scripture?

3. I never said or implied any such thing! No only do you twist scriptures you try to twist my words.

 

[HARK!]

1. This is how I knew Paul would be at the same synagogue
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

So when someone is invited ex post facto you assume that they were invited from the beforehand?

Whatever, I don't make such presumptions

 

[Der Alte]

So when someone is invited ex post facto you assume that they were invited from the beforehand?
Whatever, I don't make such presumptions

Only UR-ites make assumptions. Paul did not preach one time and leave town. The gentiles who were outside the synagogues assumed Paul would be around the next Sabbath.
All of this is just smoke screen. Whether Paul was going to be at the Corinthian synagogue the next Sabbath or not, the synagogues would still be there and the uncircumcised gentiles would still be outside.

 

[HARK!]

Only UR-ites make assumptions.

That sounds preposterous. What's a UR-ite?

Paul did not preach one time and leave town.

Where is this written? Are you making an assumption?

 

[Jan001]

Where are you getting this information?

Since this is a Bible-based discussion, I use Scripture to explain that Jews and uncircumcised Gentiles do not have dealings with each other. They do not worship together. They do not eat together or fellowship together as friends.

Paul chose to preach to Jews in synagogues in order to show them through their own Scriptures that Jesus Christ is their Messiah. Paul chose Timothy, an uncircumcised Gentile, to help him to preach to the circumcised Gentiles in the synagogues to show them that Jesus Christ is the Lord of all peoples.

Problem: Timothy was an uncircumcised Gentile and so he would not be admitted into the Jewish synagogues.

Resolution: Paul circumcised Timothy so that he could accompany Paul into the synagogues and help him to show the circumcised Gentiles that Jesus Christ is also the Lord of the Gentiles.

Please note that Paul, a Pharisee, was a friend to Timothy before Timothy was circumcised. Paul would not have been a friend to Timothy if Paul had remained a non-Christian Jew.

The non-Christian Pharisees were adamant about keeping the Law of Moses and circumcision. Unfortunately, some Christian Pharisees were also adamant about keeping the Law of Moses and circumcision. Paul despised these Christian Pharisees who demanded that Christian Gentiles keep the Law of Moses and become circumcised. Paul called these contentious Christian Pharisees unflattering names. He called them dogs, evil-workers, and mutilators of the flesh.

Philippians 3:2-11
Look out for the dogs, look out for the evil-workers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh (Christian Pharisees who demand that Gentile Christians adhere to the Law of Moses and circumcision) . 3 For we are the true circumcision, who worship God in spirit, and glory in Christ Jesus, and put no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If any other man thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; as to the law a Pharisee, 6 as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith; 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.

Paul is so upset with these evil Pharisee Christians that he wishes that they would castrate themselves!

Galatians 5:12
I wish those who unsettle you would mutilate themselves!

Paul warns the Galatians that if they become circumcised, they will no longer have the Holy Spirit, the Grace of God. If they become circumcised, the sacrifice of Jesus will not save them.

Galatians 5:2-5
Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness.

 

[Der Alte]

That sounds preposterous. What's a UR-ite?

UR1

Where is this written? Are you making an assumption?

Please show me one verse where Paul preached one time then left town.

Luke 10:7
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.​

 

[HARK!]

Please show me one verse where Paul preached one time then left town.

You made the assertion.

See: Shifting the Burden of Proof.

 

[Jan001]

FOR HARK!

You have not answered my question.

What is this unbearable yoke that Peter is speaking about in the following:

Acts 15:10
Now therefore why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?

 

[Der Alte]

You made the assertion.
See: Shifting the Burden of Proof.

Guess didn't read or ignored my previous post. The only way I can prove that Paul did not preach at a synagogue one time then leave is to quote ever verse which refers to Paul's preaching in a synagogue. All you have to do is quote 2 verses which show Paul preaching in a synagogue then leaving town. Good luck with that.

 

[Jan001]

The "forever" circumcision covenant was fulfilled/finished/completed by Jesus Christ's perfect sacrificial death on the cross. Please see Romans 5:10, Hebrews 5:8-10, and Hebrews 10:14 to see that Jesus Christ's bloody sacrificial death on the cross is the perfect blood sacrifice and that it is He alone who reconciled God to mankind.

This "biological descendant" circumcision covenant began with Abraham and it ended with Jesus Christ, the promised "offspring", who has united all of Abraham's children of faith (both Jew/Israelite and Greek/Gentile) through the circumcision of their hearts instead of through the circumcision of their flesh.

“Forever” does not always mean "never-ending" and I have put two examples of this fact at the end of this post.


"Genesis 17:3-5
When Abram was ninety-nine years old the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him, “I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, 4 “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you."


Abraham received this promise from God that he would become the father of many nations because of his faith and this promise was made before the circumcision covenant was made between Abraham and God and so the circumcision covenant applied only to his biological descendants. It is now known that this "forever" circumcision covenant was to last until the promised offspring's (Jesus Christ) death and resurrection. This offspring’s (Jesus Christ) death and resurrection did unite all of God's people (both Jew and Gentile) under one new covenant and the sign of this new covenant is the circumcision of the hearts of these peoples instead of the circumcision of the flesh of these peoples. Jesus Christ's new covenant is never-ending because Jesus Christ is both God and Man and so therefore He is called the one Mediator between God the Father and mankind. Jesus Christ received His Mediator status through the merits of His own perfect bloody sacrificial death and His resurrection from the dead. Please see 1 Timothy 2:3-6.


"Galatians 3:6-9
Thus Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 7 So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are men of faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith."


"Galatians 3:15-18
15 To give a human example, brethren: no one annuls even a man’s will, or adds to it, once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many; but, referring to one, “And to your offspring,” which is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise."


"Galatians 3:23-29
23 Now before faith came, we were confined under the law (of Moses), kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."

Abraham believed God's promise that he was to become the father of many nations. One of these many nations was to be kept separate from the other nations because the Messiah was to come from Abraham's biological descendants. God desired to have a relationship with this nation and to bless this nation with the knowledge and promise that the world's Savior was to be born from this nation. This nation was to be specifically blessed until the Savior was born. When the Savior was born, He was to unite all of Abraham's children, the peoples of faith in the Jewish nation and the peoples of faith in the Gentile nations, into just one nation whose father is Abraham.

The sign of this biological nation was that the males were to be circumcised. Jesus Christ is this promised offspring/Messiah/Savior and therefore His circumcision fulfilled/finished/completed the "forever" circumcision covenant and so circumcision is no longer helpful for God's people.


After the Savior Jesus Christ's death and resurrection from the dead, God’s people are now the people who believe in and obey God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. See Romans 9:24-26


"Ephesians 2:11-16
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end."


The "dividing wall of hostility" is a metaphor taken from the wall that divided the court of the Gentiles from the court of the Israelites in the temple.

The circumcision covenant was made “after” God's promise to Abraham about his offspring Jesus Christ. Therefore the "forever" circumcision of the flesh covenant was made obsolete/no longer necessary by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. The Law of Moses was also made obsolete by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. The Law of Moses (the law of commandments and ordinances) did not begin until four hundred and thirty years after God's promise was made to Abraham and so this Law of Moses was also made obsolete by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross.


"Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."


The Galatians were admonished for their mistaken belief that circumcision of the flesh was necessary under Jesus Christ's new covenant. The Galatians are told that those who become circumcised will sever themselves from Christ's grace of salvation.


"Galatians 3:1-4
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh (circumcision)? "


"Galatians 5:3-5
I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness."


The following are examples of other understandings for the word "forever" and they do not mean "never-ending".

1 Samuel 1:22
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, “I will not go up until the child (Samuel) is weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord and there abide for ever.”

We do know that Samuel is not abiding there presently (he is deceased).


1 Kings 9:1-3
When Solomon had finished building the house of the Lord and the king’s house and all that Solomon desired to build, 2 the Lord appeared to Solomon a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. 3 The Lord said to him, ‘I have heard your prayer and your plea, which you made before me; I have consecrated this house that you have built, and put my name there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.

Solomon's Temple (the house of the Lord) is no longer there in Jerusalem.


“Forever” (for ever) does not always mean “never-ending”.

 

[Strong in Him]

Why must we be circumcised?
Edit

1. To be saved.
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
2. *
   To keep the law.
   9 vote(s)
   100.0%

That only means that 9 people voted "to keep the law".
How many have viewed the thread?
How many didn't want to vote, or felt they couldn't vote on the limited options given?

 

[Der Alte]

The "forever" circumcision covenant was fulfilled/finished/completed by Jesus Christ's perfect sacrificial death on the cross. Please see Romans 5:10, Hebrews 5:8-10, and Hebrews 10:14 to see that Jesus Christ's bloody sacrificial death on the cross is the perfect blood sacrifice and that it is He alone who reconciled God to mankind.
This "biological descendant" circumcision covenant began with Abraham and it ended with Jesus Christ, the promised "offspring", who has united all of Abraham's children of faith (both Jew/Israelite and Greek/Gentile) through the circumcision of their hearts instead of through the circumcision of their flesh.
“Forever” does not always mean "never-ending" and I have put two examples of this fact at the end of this post.
"Genesis 17:3-5
When Abram was ninety-nine years old the Lord appeared to Abram, and said to him, “I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be blameless. 2 And I will make my covenant between me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.” 3 Then Abram fell on his face; and God said to him, 4 “Behold, my covenant is with you, and you shall be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 No longer shall your name be Abram, but your name shall be Abraham; for I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come forth from you."
Abraham received this promise from God that he would become the father of many nations because of his faith and this promise was made before the circumcision covenant was made between Abraham and God and so the circumcision covenant applied only to his biological descendants. It is now known that this "forever" circumcision covenant was to last until the promised offspring's (Jesus Christ) death and resurrection. This offspring’s (Jesus Christ) death and resurrection did unite all of God's people (both Jew and Gentile) under one new covenant and the sign of this new covenant is the circumcision of the hearts of these peoples instead of the circumcision of the flesh of these peoples. Jesus Christ's new covenant is never-ending because Jesus Christ is both God and Man and so therefore He is called the one Mediator between God the Father and mankind. Jesus Christ received His Mediator status through the merits of His own perfect bloody sacrificial death and His resurrection from the dead. Please see 1 Timothy 2:3-6.
"Galatians 3:6-9
Thus Abraham “believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.” 7 So you see that it is men of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.” 9 So then, those who are men of faith are blessed with Abraham who had faith."
"Galatians 3:15-18
15 To give a human example, brethren: no one annuls even a man’s will, or adds to it, once it has been ratified. 16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many; but, referring to one, “And to your offspring,” which is Christ. 17 This is what I mean: the law, which came four hundred and thirty years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. 18 For if the inheritance is by the law, it is no longer by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise."
"Galatians 3:23-29
23 Now before faith came, we were confined under the law (of Moses), kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. 24 So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise."
Abraham believed God's promise that he was to become the father of many nations. One of these many nations was to be kept separate from the other nations because the Messiah was to come from Abraham's biological descendants. God desired to have a relationship with this nation and to bless this nation with the knowledge and promise that the world's Savior was to be born from this nation. This nation was to be specifically blessed until the Savior was born. When the Savior was born, He was to unite all of Abraham's children, the peoples of faith in the Jewish nation and the peoples of faith in the Gentile nations, into just one nation whose father is Abraham.
The sign of this biological nation was that the males were to be circumcised. Jesus Christ is this promised offspring/Messiah/Savior and therefore His circumcision fulfilled/finished/completed the "forever" circumcision covenant and so circumcision is no longer helpful for God's people.
After the Savior Jesus Christ's death and resurrection from the dead, God’s people are now the people who believe in and obey God’s only begotten Son, Jesus Christ. See Romans 9:24-26
"Ephesians 2:11-16
Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called the uncircumcision by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end."
The "dividing wall of hostility" is a metaphor taken from the wall that divided the court of the Gentiles from the court of the Israelites in the temple.
The circumcision covenant was made “after” God's promise to Abraham about his offspring Jesus Christ. Therefore the "forever" circumcision of the flesh covenant was made obsolete/no longer necessary by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. The Law of Moses was also made obsolete by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross. The Law of Moses (the law of commandments and ordinances) did not begin until four hundred and thirty years after God's promise was made to Abraham and so this Law of Moses was also made obsolete by the death of Jesus Christ on the cross.
"Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away."
The Galatians were admonished for their mistaken belief that circumcision of the flesh was necessary under Jesus Christ's new covenant. The Galatians are told that those who become circumcised will sever themselves from Christ's grace of salvation.
"Galatians 3:1-4
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh (circumcision)? "
"Galatians 5:3-5
I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness."
The following are examples of other understandings for the word "forever" and they do not mean "never-ending".
1 Samuel 1:22
But Hannah went not up; for she said unto her husband, “I will not go up until the child (Samuel) is weaned, and then I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord and there abide for ever.”
We do know that Samuel is not abiding there presently (he is deceased).
1 Kings 9:1-3
When Solomon had finished building the house of the Lord and the king’s house and all that Solomon desired to build, 2 the Lord appeared to Solomon a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon. 3 The Lord said to him, ‘I have heard your prayer and your plea, which you made before me; I have consecrated this house that you have built, and put my name there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.
Solomon's Temple (the house of the Lord) is no longer there in Jerusalem.
“Forever” (for ever) does not always mean “never-ending”.

"Olam" does in fact mean "eternal,""everlasting" etc. but as some other words it sometimes refers to something that is not eternal.
Eighteen examples of the Hebrew “olam” defined by being paired or contrasted with adjectives or phrases which show conclusively it means eternal.

[1]Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“eternal” does.

[2]Psalms 119:44
(44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]​

In this vs. “olam” and “ad” is paired with “continually.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “continually,” “eternal” does.

[3]Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad][/quote]​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days, “eternal does.

[4]Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “all generations”, “eternal” does.

[5]Ezekiel 27:36
(36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
[6]Ezekiel 28:19
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]​

In these 2 vss. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.

[7]Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.

[8]Psa 146:10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the [8]LORD.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.

[9]Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.​

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “unto all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,” “eternal” does.

​

[Character limit. Continued next post.]

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[Der Alte]

[Previous post continued]

[10]Ecc 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [ עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “nothing can be added or taken away from it [God’s acts.]” “age(s),“ a finite period, does not equate to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts,” “eternal” does.

[11]Isa 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my righteousness shall not be abolished.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.

[12]Isa 51:8
(8) For the moth shall eat them up like a garment, and the worm shall eat them like wool: but my righteousness shall be for ever, [ עולם] and my salvation from generation to generation.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “generation to generation,”age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “generation to generation,” “eternal” does.

[13]Dan 4:34
(34) And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, [ עולם] whose dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:​

In this vs. “olam,” twice, is paired with “from generation to generation,”age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” does.

[14]Dan 4:3
(3) How great are his signs, how mighty his wonders! His kingdom is an eternal [ עולם] kingdom; his dominion endures from generation to generation.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “from generation to generation,”age(s),” does not equate to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” does.

[15]Dan 7:14
(14) He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting [ עולם] dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away, never be destroyed”, “eternal” does.

[16]Jer 23:40
(40) I will bring on you everlasting disgrace [ עולם] —everlasting shame [ עולם] that will not be forgotten."​

In this vs. “olam,” twice, is paired with “will not be forgotten,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””eternal” does.

[17]Jer 50:5
(5) They will ask the way to Zion and turn their faces toward it. They will come and bind themselves to the LORD in an everlasting [ עולם] covenant that will not be forgotten.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”eternal” does.

[18]Hab 1:12
(12) LORD, are you not from everlasting? [ עולם] My God, my Holy One, you will never die. You, LORD, have appointed them to execute judgment; you, my Rock, have ordained them to punish.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “will never die,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will never die,” ”eternal” does.

 

[ClementofA]

"Olam" does in fact mean "eternal,""everlasting" etc. but as some other words it sometimes refers to something that is not eternal.
Eighteen examples of the Hebrew “olam” defined by being paired or contrasted with adjectives or phrases which show conclusively it means eternal.

[1]Exodus 3:15
(15) And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever,[עולם/olam] and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “unto all generations.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“eternal” does.

So if an airline pilot announces "We are going to land in New York City, folks. We will be entering the USA", according to you NYC = USA, eh?

A more literal & less misleading translation is:

Exo.3:15 And Elohim said further to Moses: Thus shall you say to the sons of Israel, Yahweh, the Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac and the Elohim of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name for the eon, and this the remembrance of Me for generation after generation (CLV)

"generation after generation" does not equal "for ever for all generations".

Your translation misrepresents the Hebrew. There's no "all" in the Hebrew text, not that it would matter, since even that would not say 'throughout all' generations.

Even yours says only "unto", not 'throughout'.

[2]Psalms 119:44
(44) So shall I keep thy law continually for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]​

In this vs. “olam” and “ad” is paired with “continually.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “continually,” “eternal” does.

So if someone says "I shall keep myself continually at the cottage this week and next month also", that means "week" cannot be a finite period, but must mean "eternal", eh.

For according to you "a finite period does not equate to "continually", but "eternal" does", so "this week" and "next month" must mean "eternal" according to your type of logic!

Also "for ever and ever" in your translation is self contradictory nonsense.

One of the more literal versions says:

Psalm 119:44 I will keep your law continually, For the eon and further. (CLV)

Where "eon" is the translation of the Hebrew word olam & clearly finite.

[3]Psalms 21:4
(4) He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever [עולם/olam] and ever.[עד/ad]​

​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “length of days”. “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days, “eternal does.

So if a person seeking to live asks a doctor to operate on him & the doctor says the operation will lengthen his days for a year, according to you that proves "length of days" means "eternal", eh?

Also "for ever and ever" in your translation is self contradictory nonsense.

One of the more literal versions says:

Psa.21:4 He asked life from You; You will give it to him:Length of days for an eon and further. (CLV)

Where "eon" is the translation of the Hebrew word olam & clearly finite.

And one of your most loved versions states:

NET Bible
He asked you to sustain his life, and you have granted him long life and an enduring dynasty.

[4]Psalms 45:17
(17) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations: therefore shall the people praise thee [עולם/olam] and ever:[עד/ad]
​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “all generations”, “eternal” does.

Forever and ever is self contradictory nonsense. One of the more literal versions says:

Psa.45:7 I will make Your Name remembered in every generation after generation; Therefore the peoples, they shall acclaim You for the eon and further. (CLV)

Where "eon" is the translation of the Hebrew word olam & clearly finite.

[5]Ezekiel 27:36
(36) The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
[6]Ezekiel 28:19
(19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. [עד־עולם/ad-olam]
​

In these 2 vss. “olam” is contrasted with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.

Ezek.27:36 Merchants among the peoples have shrieked for you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon! (CLV)
Young's Literal Translation
Merchants among the peoples have shrieked for thee, Wastes thou hast been, and thou art not -- to the age!'

The word "to" there is the Hebrew word - AD - meaning "to", "until", "up to", "as far as":

Strong's Hebrew: 5704. עַד (ad) -- as far as, even to, up to, until, while

Which clearly puts a limit on how long they "are not".

The misleading translation posted by Der Alte didn't even translate the Hebrew word AD! Which recalls this verse:

Jer.8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, And the law of the LORD is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

The same remarks apply to Ezek.28:19 above:

Ezek.28:19 All knowing you among the peoples Have been astonished at you, Wastes you have been, and you are not--to the eon.' (CLV)

[7]Psa 33:11
(11) The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, [ עולם] the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.

The above misleading translation adds the word "all" which does not exist in the Hebrew. A more literal and honest translation is:

Psa.33:11 The counsel of Yahweh shall stand for the eon, The designs of His heart for generation after generation. (CLV)

And which negates the Der Alte argument.

[8]Psa 146:10 The LORD shall reign for ever, even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the [8]LORD.
​

In this vs. “olam” is paired with “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.

Once again the above translation "plays fast and loose" with the Hebrew text & adds to the Word of God with the word "all". Here are more literal & accurate versions:

Psa.146:10 Yahweh shall reign for the eon, Your Elohim, O Zion, for generation after generation. Praise Yah." (CLV)
Young's Literal Translation
Jehovah doth reign to the age, Thy God, O Zion, to generation and generation, Praise ye Jah!

Unlike in the Der Alte mis-translation, the word "generation" occurs twice in the Hebrew.

The proper translations above make invalid the Der Alte argument.

[9]Psa 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: [ עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off. even thy God, O Zion, unto all generations. Praise ye the LORD.
​

In this vs. “olam” is in apposition to “unto all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,” “eternal” does.

​

There is no "unto all generations" in Psalm 37:28 of any of dozens of translations i've seen, let alone the Hebrew or even the LXX. The phrase "unto all generations" appears to be fake.

Young's Literal Translation
For Jehovah is loving judgment, And He doth not forsake His saintly ones, To the age they have been kept, And the seed of the wicked is cut off.

 

[Jan001]

We do know that Jesus Christ fulfilled the circumcision covenant because the NT Bible authors claim that Jewish ritual circumcision of the flesh is forbidden for Jesus Christ's followers whether they are of Jewish ancestry or not. If Jewish converts were circumcised before they became Christians, they should not remove the marks of their circumcision.

Romans 2:28-29
For he is not a real Jew who is one outwardly, nor is true circumcision something external and physical. 29 He is a Jew who is one inwardly, and real circumcision is a matter of the heart, spiritual and not literal. His praise is not from men but from God.

1 Corinthians 7:18
Was any one at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was any one at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision.

IF a Christian man receives the circumcision of the flesh according to the Jewish religion, Jesus Christ's sacrifice will no longer save him.

Galatians 5:2-5
Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth? 8 This persuasion is not from him (Christ) who calls you.

Hebrews 10:26-30
For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 A man who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy at the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.”

When the Law of Moses under the first covenant was in effect, a man who violated the Law of Moses died without mercy when two or three witnesses testified against him.

However, under the new covenant law of Christ if a Christian man receives
Jewish ritual circumcision, he has spurned the Son of God and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified and outraged the Spirit of grace.