Church of Constantinople officially recognizes the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate

[TheLostCoin]

I listened very closely to the video of the Pope of Alexandria's comments, and he very clearly said the Ukranian Church was the canonical church. Did I miss something?

He said there is one canonical Church in Ukraine, referring to the Russian Church. Both the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - MP and Ukrainian Orthodox Church - KP claim to be the legitimate Ukrainian Orthodox Church. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church - MP is under the canonical territory of Russia, while the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - KP was the schismatic one which was recently recognized by Patriarch Bartholomew.

 

[TheLostCoin]

This is correct. Which is surprising actually. I am Greek and hate to say it but even though most Greek bishops and monks are privately on the side of Moscow (it's really a no-brainer) they will not dare speak out against their little Hellenic club, they will do what it takes to preserve their floundering hellenic hegemony. The Patriarch of Alexandria while Greek through and through has cultivated close Russian ties in the past 500 years though.

No it isn't correct.

https://orthodoxia.info/news/moscow...-support-for-the-canonical-church-in-ukraine/

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

No it isn't correct.

https://orthodoxia.info/news/moscow...-support-for-the-canonical-church-in-ukraine/

That's what I linked to as well. The pope of Alexandria supports Moscow.

 

[Open Heart]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjACegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw26vXzj3YErqfihXP02EM6x

So there's a "Church in Ukraine" governed by the ROC just as the American Orthodox Church is actually the ROC?

I'm obviously going to get completely confused by all the different churches being called the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

 

[TheLostCoin]

Russians are generally painted as irrational beings all together in western media which I personally find offputting and shameful.

I disagree. They aren't painted by the West as "irrational beings," rather they are portrayed as the "evil colonialist." In political psychology, the elites of a country will try to create a caricature of their enemies in order to gain mass support, and the United States has chosen the latter image rather than the former.

How many times in American political discourse have you heard Putin compared to a Tsar or as a Communist Spy?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

nm.

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

So there's a "Church in Ukraine" governed by the ROC just as the American Orthodox Church is actually the ROC?

I'm obviously going to get completely confused by all the different churches being called the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

I have an idea about this, but you deserve the best answers available. @ArmyMatt father do you mind explaining this thoroughly?

 

[TheLostCoin]

So there's a "Church in Ukraine" governed by the ROC just as the American Orthodox Church is actually the ROC?

I'm obviously going to get completely confused by all the different churches being called the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

Yes. That's what the controversy is about - the Ecumenical Patriarch granted autocephaly to a group of schismatics (not in communion with any other Orthodox Church) on the territory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church run by Moscow.

Although the American Orthodox Church (I assume you mean OCA) is not governed by the Russian Orthodox Church. The American Orthodox Church is autocephalous, but the Ecumenical Patriarch does not recognize this autocephaly and still believes that - canonically - it is under the authority of Russia. Regardless, functionality wise it is self-governing and doesn't take orders from Russia.

 

[buzuxi02]

No it isn't correct.

https://orthodoxia.info/news/moscow...-support-for-the-canonical-church-in-ukraine/

That is what I meant, I am (pleasantly) surprised the Alexandrian Patriarch has come out strongly in support of the Ukranian Church under Metropolitan Onufry. Usually Alexandria whose synod is constituted of ethnic greeks will tow the hellenic party line. Patriarch Theodoros was a priest I believe in the Ukranian Orthodox Church.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I have an idea about this, but you deserve the best answers available. @ArmyMatt father do you mind explaining this thoroughly?

the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is the one under Moscow. there are two schismatic groups who are not in the Church.

 

[buzuxi02]

So there's a "Church in Ukraine" governed by the ROC just as the American Orthodox Church is actually the ROC?

The only canonical church in Ukraine is the Autonomous Ukranian Orthodox headed by Metropolitan Onufry of Kiev (the only one that is centuries old). This church is autonomous it controls it's own affairs and finances and church properties.

The only difference is they still commemorate the Patriarch of Moscow, get their Holy Chrism from the ROC and their Metropolitan has a seat in the Synod of Moscow (but not the other way around).

There are 2 schismatic sects. The larger of the two has the backing of the Kiev regime and the United States. It is these two sects the EP has subordinated to himself (they dont know what they are in for).

So we are speaking of three seperate entities BUT.. when we speak of the schismatics we are usually referring to the larger of the two. The one who calls himself patriarch of Kiev and is government backed.
Oh and sometimes their is a fourth entity thrown into the mix. That is the Byzantine rite catholics. Hope that clears everything up

 

[buzuxi02]

Yes. That's what the controversy is about - the Ecumenical Patriarch granted autocephaly to a group of schismatics (not in communion with any other Orthodox Church) on the territory of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church run by Moscow.

Even though its portrayed as such this is not true. The Ukranian schismatics were hoping for autocephaly. Instead the Ecumenical.Patriarch subordinated both sects under his control! The documents speak in the singular of a creating a single Orthodox church in Ukraine (some day). Yet in the EP document it urges everyone to no longer persecute and steal each others properties!

 

[abacabb3]

I think all of this speaks to the stupidity of Western foreign policy since the Korean War. The idea that fighting Vietnam, occupying Iraq, giving weapons to former Al Qaeda to overthrow Syria, and backing Bin Laden in the 80s somehow improves global stability has NEVER worked. Western meddling in Ukraine with the aim of drawing them into NATO is obviously 1. insane as they are a nuclear power right next to the world's second largest nuclear power and 2. stupid, sort of like throwing a rock at a hornet's nest.

So, somehow the Patriarch of Constantinople allowed himself to be roped in. He has good intentions, I sincerely believe this. Obviously, Russia does not want a national church in Ukraine for political reasons and Russia probably loses money helping support the canonical Ukrainian Church on the down-low.

Nevertheless, what gets lost in all of this is that Filaret is an all-around nasty guy and he is presently in communion with wackos, which means, by making his schismatic sect in communion with Constantinople, if Constantinople is not excommunicated we just re-entered into communion wacko schismatics in Montenegro, Macedonia, and Bulgaria. The church itself was started by defrocked Bishops, its first Bishop not Filaret but some sort of Nazi-puppet that lived past the Nazi Ukrainian Autocephalys church of years ago.

It is absolutely scandalous and wrong. Even if the Russian church is greedy and heavy handed, they are in the end, still right. It is simply wrong to allow a schismatic body, started by men without apostolic succession, to be in communion when there is already a canonical church.

Unlike the stupidity of a kid of throwing a rock at a hornets nest, what Bartholomew did was step in front of a tractor-trailer and threw a rock. He's going to get crushed and anyone who hinges themselves to him will get crushed to.

I actually think Bartholomew is a good guy, though his judgement here is extremely bad. I think he will relent, because unless he has alzheimers or something, he is going to step out of the way of the truck. Otherwise, he may very well watch a council develop in Antioch or Alexandria reshuffle the deck and either ordain a replacement for Constantinople or excommunciate him in a pan-orthodox council. I don't want this to happen and I don't think Bartholomew does. He was peace, not discord. He just trusted the brilliant foreign policy endeavors of the West which while promising peace always bring war.

 

[gzt]

I don't really think this is American interference in church politics.

 

[abacabb3]

Bloomberg is reporting otherwise, also i said "West" so it includes nations (and financial interests) other than USA.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

Bloomberg is reporting otherwise

So? Who cares?

 

[abacabb3]

So? Who cares?

If the Fakenews is proudly proclaiming that Western interests are pushing the Ukrainian government to get behind it, I presume it's best not to ignore a tacit admission of guilt?

 

[rusmeister]

I don't really think this is American interference in church politics.

I think it more accurate to say that American EFFORTS to interfere have resulted in the EP determining to try to restore Constantinopolitan authority and glory, which have been somewhat lacking for the past six centuries.

Personally, I think it’s time to retire that Patriarchate altogether, perhaps with what few people it has coming under the Greeks, but that’s just my opinion.

Not that I think ANY Patriarchate free from corruption, the temptation to wealth and secular power and influence...

 

[rusmeister]

So there's a "Church in Ukraine" governed by the ROC just as the American Orthodox Church is actually the ROC?

I'm obviously going to get completely confused by all the different churches being called the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

You have our sympathy. Seriously. But that’s the human side of the Church. A divine institution being run by messed-up people.

 

[E.C.]

This is correct. Which is surprising actually. I am Greek and hate to say it but even though most Greek bishops and monks are privately on the side of Moscow (it's really a no-brainer) they will not dare speak out against their little Hellenic club, they will do what it takes to preserve their floundering hellenic hegemony. The Patriarch of Alexandria while Greek through and through has cultivated close Russian ties in the past 500 years though (including the current Alexandrian Patriarch), so that may explain it.

QFT. If the Greeks would actually speak their mind to their own tribe we wouldn't have had this problem.

So there's a "Church in Ukraine" governed by the ROC just as the American Orthodox Church is actually the ROC?

I'm obviously going to get completely confused by all the different churches being called the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.

Ukraine in a nutshell.

In Ukraine there are three groups.
-Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Moscow Patriarchate.
-Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate
-Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church

The only canonical, legitimate entity is the one part of Moscow Patriarchate.
The "Kiev Patriarch" came into being in the mid 90s after Filaret Denisenko was deposed and excommunicated by Moscow for putting Ukrainian nationalism ahead of the Church. He calls himself a patriarch. The other group, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, has roots to the 1910s-1920s when the former Russian Empire was in civil war. Both the "Autocephalous" and "Kiev Patriarch" entities are schismatic and therefore not Orthodox. They left the Church. They both have been given many invitations to repent, but refuse to. These two are the ones which the EP recognized a few days ago as autocephalous. Keep in mind that KP supporters constantly persecute the Orthodox and are Ukrainian nationalists.

As for the USA, the situation here gets complicated because of history. There is the Orthodox Church in America, OCA, and autocephalous entity which has roots from the Russian Church via when Alaska was a colony. We're recognized as autocephalous by Russia and others but not Constantinople. Constantinople thinks we're still under Moscow.