Church Fathers & Universalism since Early Church times

[SkyWriting]

But my monograph is not on patristic eschatology or soteriology in general, but specifically on the doctrine of apokatastasis.

I can't argue with that...eh?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I think they must be - imaginary - in your head only.

Pretty close.
Imaginary anyway.
Let's try this on your behalf (as if):

What actual credible group currently alive and active in your local area agrees with what you post ?

 

[ClementofA]

What actual credible group currently alive and active in your local area agrees with what you post ?

Agrees with universalism? There are RC, EO, Anglicans, etc, etc, etc. As for your group, Anabaptists:

Universalism Within the Anabaptist Movement

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Agrees with universalism? There are RC, EO, Anglicans, etc, etc, etc. As for your group, Anabaptists:

Sorry,
not good. (even some who call themselves Anabaptists can get things wrong, and have; just like those you claim to name that you think agree with you (yes, if some of them do, they are wrong also, just like the Anabaptists you claim, sad to say) ).

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What actual credible group currently alive and active in your local area agrees with what you post ?

Credible.
Not off-shoots within any group. (like you named)

 

[thesunisout]

The early church fathers are not who we need to look to in establishing the doctrine of an eternal hell. The scriptures speak loudly on this issue, and the One who speaks the loudest about it is the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.

 

[Oldmantook]

If universalism is true, then it's hard to see a point to Christ warnings about hell, Paul's missionary journeys, and the evangelistic efforts of any other Christians.

You have to first define universalism. For lack of a better term, evangelical universalism acknowledges the existence of a literal lake of fire where the unsaved end up in. The punishment there however is not forever and is remedial until every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus as Lord.

 

[HereIStand]

You have to first define universalism. For lack of a better term, evangelical universalism acknowledges the existence of a literal lake of fire where the unsaved end up in. The punishment there however is not forever and is remedial until every knee bows and every tongue confesses Jesus as Lord.

I'm familiar with this teaching. Sadly, a college friend of mine has been taken in by it. Universalism in any form is a flat contradiction with Scripture.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Here are some of the last words on the subject of salvation from the last book of the Bible:

"Outside are the dogs and the sorcerers and the immoral persons and the murderers and the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.............
I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. He who testifies to these things says, “Yes, I am coming quickly.” Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen."

How could the doctrine of universal salvation be true when the Lord Himself makes it a point to tell us (just before signing off for the Church age) that there will be dogs, sorcerers, immoral persons, murderers, idolaters, and liars looking in with no access to the tree of life and the holy city when God makes all things new?

Any supposed "church father" who taught that everyone will be saved eventually was either ignorant of the scriptures or willingly teaching against the clear testimony of the Book of Revelation. The same is true for everyone who teaches universal salvation now.

I hope those teaching universal salvation know what that means.

If not just read the bold print above and repent while there's still time.

Please don't be mad at me for being blunt. As much as I hate to be the bearer of bad news - I'm not the one making the rules.

This is not exactly spiritual rocket surgery. It's all there in black and white.

"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm familiar with this teaching. Sadly, a college friend of mine has been taken in by it. Universalism in any form is a flat contradiction with Scripture.

It is apparently in cahoots/ spawned off of/ ecumenicalism ,
as both say basically no one needs to repent to be saved. (thus destroying many billions of souls throughout the centuries and forever).

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

The reference to Hebrews 9:27 does not speak of "an expiration date" for salvation or God's love. After death comes judgement for all, sinners & saints. Judgement can be a good thing:

"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)

The Greek word for "chastening" here can mean correction:

The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)

Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

I think, in light of the Rapture theory, many Christians would disagree with the statement that 100% of mankind will die and face judgment. Not only that, but Hebrews 9:27 does not say men are "only" going to die once. Lazarus, for one, is a Biblical example of one who died twice & the book of Revelation speaks of the "second death"."

I already provided examples proving Heb.9:27 does not mean death occurs "once & only once". If it did there would be a Bible contradiction & the Bible would be lying.

Paul says "once was i stoned" (2 Cor.11:25). Does that mean he could never be stoned again or stoned twice? Obviously not.

Scripture reveals there are those who will not die even once & implies there are those who will die at least a second time. There are those who will never die, not even once:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 says: “For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”



We can agree that "it says what it says". But your words do not equate to the "meaning" of the verse, nor have you provided any reason why it should be understood according to - your - opinion - that it establishes a doctrine of "no hope for repentance after death".

Let's be clear. The passage nowhere uses your words "no hope", "hope" or "repentance".

The passage does not rule out repentance "after...judgement".

Neither does it rule out the possibility of repentance after death & before judgement.

It simply doesn't address such issues.

Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:

you can keep on wrestling with the Scriptures if you like!

 

[Oldmantook]

I'm familiar with this teaching. Sadly, a college friend of mine has been taken in by it. Universalism in any form is a flat contradiction with Scripture.

Any scriptural backing for your view? If so please provide citation.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Any scriptural backing for your view? If so please provide citation.

This has been accomplished for centuries.
Many times on this forum.

The world church being summed up in the beast system has been telling people they don't have to repent to be saved - thus destroying many billions of souls.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

you can keep on wrestling with the Scriptures if you like!

Actually the ecumenical/ UR or US or whatever/ false doctrines require that they don't accept Scripture as the Authority - they have to go along with other authorities contrary to Scripture, and maybe give lip service to Scripture to look good to others.
i.e. instead of seeking the truth, instead of "wrestling with Scripture", they just ignore the truth and accept what is needed for their false teachings instead.

Since without repentance there is no remission of sin,
and whoever tramples underfoot the blood of Jesus no longer has any sacrifice for their sin,
a lot of people are in for a very rude resurrection to shame and judgment instead of life and blessing in jesus.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Actually the ecumenical/ UR or US or whatever/ false doctrines require that they don't accept Scripture as the Authority - they have to go along with other authorities contrary to Scripture, and maybe give lip service to Scripture to look good to others.
i.e. instead of seeking the truth, instead of "wrestling with Scripture", they just ignore the truth and accept what is needed for their false teachings instead.

Since without repentance there is no remission of sin,
and whoever tramples underfoot the blood of Jesus no longer has any sacrifice for their sin,
a lot of people are in for a very rude resurrection to shame and judgment instead of life and blessing in jesus.

I have a great fear and sadness for the countless souls in the RC and various "orthodox" churches that reject a true repentance for salvation, and teach the heresy that they can be "born-again" through water baptism! But, what makes it worse, is when we try to post the Truth of the Bible on forums like this, it is considered as "flaming", and we are warned, or even banned, and the Truth is removed! This is muzzling what God has to say, through the fear of offending the sinner!!!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Things on the internet the last 10 years have gotten more and more ungodly, unrighteous, and uncontrolable every day. This next year will be the worst ever, just as this year was worse than the year before.
The world government a lot of people "know" will take power,
but they think, perhaps,
that it will happen all at once (as if it could),
not knowing that it has been rising in power and in control for hundreds of years
insidiously in every country as written in Scripture.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Things on the internet the last 10 years have gotten more and more ungodly, unrighteous, and uncontrolable every day. This next year will be the worst ever, just as this year was worse than the year before.
The world government a lot of people "know" will take power,
but they think, perhaps,
that it will happen all at once (as if it could),
not knowing that it has been rising in power and in control for hundreds of years
insidiously in every country as written in Scripture.

True, but made worse by "Christians" who are supposed to preach the Gospel, whether or not it is offensive! "The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God." (1 Corinthians 1:18). However, places like Christian Forums with their "rules", forbid the truth of Scripture being shared, and hinder people from coming out of darkness!

 

[Oldmantook]

This has been accomplished for centuries.
Many times on this forum.

The world church being summed up in the beast system has been telling people they don't have to repent to be saved - thus destroying many billions of souls.

If you saw it many times on this forum then you should have known that repentance is still necessary to be saved. Evangelical Universalism does not deny the requirement of belief and repentance; contrary to your incorrect assertion.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If you saw it many times on this forum then you should have known that repentance is still necessary to be saved. Evangelical Universalism does not deny the requirement of belief and repentance; contrary to your incorrect assertion.

Wrong.
Look again.
The recent universalists have been saying that everyone is saved even if they don't repent.
If you know and confess that everyone must repent who wants to be saved,
before they die,
then you are not a part of that crowd in error.

 

[Oldmantook]

Wrong.
Look again.
The recent universalists have been saying that everyone is saved even if they don't repent.
If you know and confess that everyone must repent who wants to be saved,
before they die,
then you are not a part of that crowd in error.

You don't distinguish between the different forms of Universalist belief. I stated the EVANGELICAL form of universalism; the emphasis of course being the need to repent. When referring to this subject, one must define the terms first and foremost.